Decided to put together a thread showing why the new UiS quests broke the Meta.
tldr: If you compare the old quests with the new quests, the old quests just reward a one time item, slow item, or were meant for longer games, while new quests are constantly rewarding with game ending effects once completed. All the hyper fast quests could be fixed by increasing the number of items needed to complete each step. Most Decks can't deal with a 7/7+ along with its additional effect, on turn 5-6 without dumping lots of resources into it.
Everyone knows the current mess the meta currently is, and I got thinking of old quests and realized that some of the quests are just older ones that have been massively power crept.
The goal of this quest is to gain attack with the main strategy to go face. This is effective because taunt minions are the best way to counter this quest, but they are almost unplayable atm due to low stats and high costs, which makes them lose to other faster decks. Also a common strategy atm is to copy your final quest reward in order to get to play 2 10/10s, gain 16 armor, and 16 attack on turn 7 and 8.
Let's start by looking at the last questsJungle Giants and Untapped Potential. These both go to show you the power and speed creep issue. Jungle Giants required 5 minions with 5+ atk to be played. This kind of quest was slow due to 5 atk minions not being avaliable for the first few turns, then required draw to use the reward once you actually played the 8/8 reward. Untapped Potential was also another example. You had to float mana for 4 turns before you were given a passive hero power, then you could start playing cards to combo with it, creating double threats. This was another slow card where the deck wouldn't even get going until the quest was completed, while most UiS quest rewards are usually wrapping up the game.
The best example to compare this quest to was Hack the System. This quest became a meme because of how unplayable it was due to having to pretty much kill yourself, the very little reward you were given which required doing more of the quests requirements (attacking more to refresh the power), and the 0 support the card got. If UiS Quest druid needs to attack something, he does and all the armor he's gaining absorbs the damage. This shows how something similiar can be so very different.
This card is literally a face card and a mess in wild atm (due to Rapid Fire and odd). Play 6 spells then you get your reward. This is absolutely insane because of how fast it is to play that many, the 7/7 quest reward, followed by the mass face damage. Hunter has a large number of low cost spells that do high damage and generate small minions, because of this, it is easy to keep the board clear while also doing sparse face damage. Everyone knows that if you have no way to clear the 7/7, you lose because that's going to be hitting face along with a massive turn of hero powers (which is worse in wild since odd hunter makes 15 hero powers to kill at full to 10).
Hunter's previous quests are The Marsh Queen and Unseal the Vault. The major problem with the UiS quest and the UiS mage quest is that neither has to play for board, the hunter quest even more so. Both clear the board then dump mass damage from hand. The old quests both required playing for board. Both were slow due to requiring specific minions and high cost spells (UtV) with hunter's poor draw. If the enemy had no problem clearing the constant boards, then the hunter would lose. in UiS, the hunter just plays everything from hand and goes face with spells and hero powers which can't be interacted with.
I'm not going to get into the mage quest since the hunter section covered it's problem which is playing everything from hand and the real problem is Ignite.
The quest is notorious in wild and made worse in standard with Smite and cannoneer. The problem with this is it's a hyper aggro deck that has no problems constantly tutoring out its quest conditions. Pirates are one of the best early game tribes in the game. Pirate Warrior was already competitive in wild before the quest came out. The quest gave it another win condition, a way to tutor out ancharr (which then tutors out the quests requirements) or the outrider's axe in standard for general draw, and more face damage or board removals. The quest reward is once again a 7/7 that has to be killed immediately, then an infinite value generator and damage dealing each turn.
We've already gone over Hack the System. Funny enough, Raid the Docks is better at dealing with weapons than HtS due to the weapon tutoring the weapon generation with pirates. Fire plumes heart was the other quest warrior had. Play 7 taunts and get a weapon and a hero power that costs 2, but deals 8 random damage each turn. This quest is slow to play due to the way taunts work, but could easily overwhelm slower decks with it's value. Still, you don't get the random damage and weapon tutor (and then more draw/tutoring) that the new quest gives.
The 2nd card ever banned in wild! While wild has WAY more synergy with this card, it's still a problem in standard. This quest rewards too much what a warlock normally does while also allowing them to play damage to self minions (which tend to have higher stats for their cost and tutors) with little downside while getting rewarded.
Warlock's old quest showed severe restrictions which TDS doesn't have. Lakkari Sacrifice is a good example of this. When you discard a card, you lose resources, making something else you have to fight against, while also playing a huge RNG factor that you don't discard something you need. Once you completed this quest, you got a 5 mana reward, but this time it's just going to summon 2 3/2 each turn instead of a 7/7, but for the rest of the game, you're still dealing with the threat of discarding unlike when TDS is completed where the downsides become upsides.
Supreme Archaeology was warlock's SoU quest. This was a slow quest that required specific mass card draw. The reward for this? One per turn you can spend 2 mana to draw a card that's free. This made it so his soul fragment package couldn't be used in the archetype, and many times you'd barely get to use the reward since you'd run out of cards unless you were able to go infinite. There was always the looming threat of plot twisting something you need. Either way, this required a more mana heavy deck that didn't end the game around turn 6 or 7.
As you can see, the new quests are extremely sped up compared to old ones, have very little if any counter play, and the constant rewards they give make them a problem. How do you solve this? I don't think it's possible without a complete rework of many of the quests where they're extremely slowed down, meaning that the decks then have to be built for lasting a longer game rather than dumping everything turns 1-5 then wrapping up the game in the next few turns. The idea of sub-quest rewards literally sounds like something meant for a slower game where you get things to deal with problems or stabilize, but instead all the rewards just ramp everything up. The 7/7 and 8/8 5 mana minions are just too much to deal with and really need their stats lower. No quest disruption was added in Deadmines, while adding more support for already strong archetypes, which could've changed the meta completely, but it would've lead to required tech cards.
Yes, I'd say your analysis is pretty spot on. Older quests were slower because the devs wanted slower games. Now they want the game to be faster.
So the built in inevitability of the quest rewards ending games, both the minion and effect they provide are probably very intentional.
It's really unfortunate, because I think what makes this game interesting is the minion combat. Spells should not be getting directed at face so much. But that's the game we play now. And you either have to join them or get out...
completely agree. these quests can be fun but they shouldn't be completed so easily. The criteria to get the final reward is crazy low in these particular questlines. except druid, that's ok IMO, at least for now
But that's the game we play now. And you either have to join them or get out...
More true than ever. I didn’t particularly care for the shift to faster games. I didn’t care at all for the questlines, except rogue, that’s the only one that seems moderately balanced. Now the miniset has one or two cards. There are some other really cool cards and ideas, upgrading tradable cards is a cool concept. Doesn’t matter though because Mr. Smite… in every class in every deck. He is a finisher, an OTK, a combo piece, a highroll, he makes other cards much better… I just don’t get it anymore and frankly, this game is getting less and less enjoyable. I’ve played since beta, and this is the least amount of fun I’ve had playing a game I clearly love to play.
It is not about the community voices and what we want anymore... It is about what makes money for the game...
When the quests are slow, they are enjoyable, have fun testing, but they don't get much in return
When these quests are fast, people climb fast, don't need to test or have fun, the game attracts more mobile users to pay, they make the $$$, the developers are happy, and this is the direction where they want to go.. Late-game cards (8+ mana cost) are all about memes (i.e., the Epic card from Deadlines) from now on.
the best fix is that the final reward should be AT LEAST 7 mana to play, its a 7/7 anyway (if they want to make it even 8 or 9 mana idc) but the quest progression while easy and annoying is fine, they can easily tweak small numbers and not kill it like Demon Seed from 7 to 8 health for completion, can add 1 extra pirate for 2nd and 3rd stage, 1-2 more SI agents, hunter should be 3 spells per tier its still not broken but its crazy stupid in while just with rapid fire u are done ( i am aware the game is not designed for wild but so was demon seed banned) etc....
So they made HS a game aimed to be 4 mins long and played on a mobile and now it's basically lost?
so stupid that they're wrecking what could be a very fun game with 50 different decks but in each meta we're stuck with a few op decks that everyone plays. I honestly don't understand why i keep playing it, but somehow i still do. at least a few games a day. won't spend any money on it though.
I think questlines can be fixed by gutting card draw. For the last 2 years they've been powercreeping the shit out of draw and that's done horrid things for the game, including making questlines so easy to complete early. Increase the cost of every draw card by half a mana per card drawn, remove all card draw elements from every quest for more thematic rewards, and maybe constructed won't be just competitive masturbation. And it'd also slow down garrote rogue and aggro druid to boot, both decks heavily reliant on drawing absurd numbers of cards in the first 5 turns of a match.
Decided to put together a thread showing why the new UiS quests broke the Meta.
tldr: If you compare the old quests with the new quests, the old quests just reward a one time item, slow item, or were meant for longer games, while new quests are constantly rewarding with game ending effects once completed. All the hyper fast quests could be fixed by increasing the number of items needed to complete each step. Most Decks can't deal with a 7/7+ along with its additional effect, on turn 5-6 without dumping lots of resources into it.
Everyone knows the current mess the meta currently is, and I got thinking of old quests and realized that some of the quests are just older ones that have been massively power crept.
Let's start with
Druid: Lost in the Park
The goal of this quest is to gain attack with the main strategy to go face. This is effective because taunt minions are the best way to counter this quest, but they are almost unplayable atm due to low stats and high costs, which makes them lose to other faster decks. Also a common strategy atm is to copy your final quest reward in order to get to play 2 10/10s, gain 16 armor, and 16 attack on turn 7 and 8.
Let's start by looking at the last questsJungle Giants and Untapped Potential. These both go to show you the power and speed creep issue. Jungle Giants required 5 minions with 5+ atk to be played. This kind of quest was slow due to 5 atk minions not being avaliable for the first few turns, then required draw to use the reward once you actually played the 8/8 reward. Untapped Potential was also another example. You had to float mana for 4 turns before you were given a passive hero power, then you could start playing cards to combo with it, creating double threats. This was another slow card where the deck wouldn't even get going until the quest was completed, while most UiS quest rewards are usually wrapping up the game.
The best example to compare this quest to was Hack the System. This quest became a meme because of how unplayable it was due to having to pretty much kill yourself, the very little reward you were given which required doing more of the quests requirements (attacking more to refresh the power), and the 0 support the card got. If UiS Quest druid needs to attack something, he does and all the armor he's gaining absorbs the damage. This shows how something similiar can be so very different.
Hunter: Defend the Dwarven District
This card is literally a face card and a mess in wild atm (due to Rapid Fire and odd). Play 6 spells then you get your reward. This is absolutely insane because of how fast it is to play that many, the 7/7 quest reward, followed by the mass face damage. Hunter has a large number of low cost spells that do high damage and generate small minions, because of this, it is easy to keep the board clear while also doing sparse face damage. Everyone knows that if you have no way to clear the 7/7, you lose because that's going to be hitting face along with a massive turn of hero powers (which is worse in wild since odd hunter makes 15 hero powers to kill at full to 10).
Hunter's previous quests are The Marsh Queen and Unseal the Vault. The major problem with the UiS quest and the UiS mage quest is that neither has to play for board, the hunter quest even more so. Both clear the board then dump mass damage from hand. The old quests both required playing for board. Both were slow due to requiring specific minions and high cost spells (UtV) with hunter's poor draw. If the enemy had no problem clearing the constant boards, then the hunter would lose. in UiS, the hunter just plays everything from hand and goes face with spells and hero powers which can't be interacted with.
I'm not going to get into the mage quest since the hunter section covered it's problem which is playing everything from hand and the real problem is Ignite.
Warrior: Raid the Docks
The quest is notorious in wild and made worse in standard with Smite and cannoneer. The problem with this is it's a hyper aggro deck that has no problems constantly tutoring out its quest conditions. Pirates are one of the best early game tribes in the game. Pirate Warrior was already competitive in wild before the quest came out. The quest gave it another win condition, a way to tutor out ancharr (which then tutors out the quests requirements) or the outrider's axe in standard for general draw, and more face damage or board removals. The quest reward is once again a 7/7 that has to be killed immediately, then an infinite value generator and damage dealing each turn.
We've already gone over Hack the System. Funny enough, Raid the Docks is better at dealing with weapons than HtS due to the weapon tutoring the weapon generation with pirates. Fire plumes heart was the other quest warrior had. Play 7 taunts and get a weapon and a hero power that costs 2, but deals 8 random damage each turn. This quest is slow to play due to the way taunts work, but could easily overwhelm slower decks with it's value. Still, you don't get the random damage and weapon tutor (and then more draw/tutoring) that the new quest gives.
You know what's next.
Warlock: The Demon Seed
The 2nd card ever banned in wild! While wild has WAY more synergy with this card, it's still a problem in standard. This quest rewards too much what a warlock normally does while also allowing them to play damage to self minions (which tend to have higher stats for their cost and tutors) with little downside while getting rewarded.
Warlock's old quest showed severe restrictions which TDS doesn't have. Lakkari Sacrifice is a good example of this. When you discard a card, you lose resources, making something else you have to fight against, while also playing a huge RNG factor that you don't discard something you need. Once you completed this quest, you got a 5 mana reward, but this time it's just going to summon 2 3/2 each turn instead of a 7/7, but for the rest of the game, you're still dealing with the threat of discarding unlike when TDS is completed where the downsides become upsides.
Supreme Archaeology was warlock's SoU quest. This was a slow quest that required specific mass card draw. The reward for this? One per turn you can spend 2 mana to draw a card that's free. This made it so his soul fragment package couldn't be used in the archetype, and many times you'd barely get to use the reward since you'd run out of cards unless you were able to go infinite. There was always the looming threat of plot twisting something you need. Either way, this required a more mana heavy deck that didn't end the game around turn 6 or 7.
As you can see, the new quests are extremely sped up compared to old ones, have very little if any counter play, and the constant rewards they give make them a problem. How do you solve this? I don't think it's possible without a complete rework of many of the quests where they're extremely slowed down, meaning that the decks then have to be built for lasting a longer game rather than dumping everything turns 1-5 then wrapping up the game in the next few turns. The idea of sub-quest rewards literally sounds like something meant for a slower game where you get things to deal with problems or stabilize, but instead all the rewards just ramp everything up. The 7/7 and 8/8 5 mana minions are just too much to deal with and really need their stats lower. No quest disruption was added in Deadmines, while adding more support for already strong archetypes, which could've changed the meta completely, but it would've lead to required tech cards.
Yes, I'd say your analysis is pretty spot on. Older quests were slower because the devs wanted slower games. Now they want the game to be faster.
So the built in inevitability of the quest rewards ending games, both the minion and effect they provide are probably very intentional.
It's really unfortunate, because I think what makes this game interesting is the minion combat. Spells should not be getting directed at face so much. But that's the game we play now. And you either have to join them or get out...
completely agree. these quests can be fun but they shouldn't be completed so easily. The criteria to get the final reward is crazy low in these particular questlines. except druid, that's ok IMO, at least for now
More true than ever. I didn’t particularly care for the shift to faster games. I didn’t care at all for the questlines, except rogue, that’s the only one that seems moderately balanced. Now the miniset has one or two cards. There are some other really cool cards and ideas, upgrading tradable cards is a cool concept. Doesn’t matter though because Mr. Smite… in every class in every deck. He is a finisher, an OTK, a combo piece, a highroll, he makes other cards much better… I just don’t get it anymore and frankly, this game is getting less and less enjoyable. I’ve played since beta, and this is the least amount of fun I’ve had playing a game I clearly love to play.
It is not about the community voices and what we want anymore... It is about what makes money for the game...
When the quests are slow, they are enjoyable, have fun testing, but they don't get much in return
When these quests are fast, people climb fast, don't need to test or have fun, the game attracts more mobile users to pay, they make the $$$, the developers are happy, and this is the direction where they want to go.. Late-game cards (8+ mana cost) are all about memes (i.e., the Epic card from Deadlines) from now on.
the best fix is that the final reward should be AT LEAST 7 mana to play, its a 7/7 anyway (if they want to make it even 8 or 9 mana idc) but the quest progression while easy and annoying is fine, they can easily tweak small numbers and not kill it like Demon Seed from 7 to 8 health for completion, can add 1 extra pirate for 2nd and 3rd stage, 1-2 more SI agents, hunter should be 3 spells per tier its still not broken but its crazy stupid in while just with rapid fire u are done ( i am aware the game is not designed for wild but so was demon seed banned) etc....
its too much free resources for 1 mana, how devs thought that was going to be ok is beyond me.
So they made HS a game aimed to be 4 mins long and played on a mobile and now it's basically lost?
so stupid that they're wrecking what could be a very fun game with 50 different decks but in each meta we're stuck with a few op decks that everyone plays. I honestly don't understand why i keep playing it, but somehow i still do. at least a few games a day. won't spend any money on it though.
I heard they are adding a 0 mana 1/1 Pirate in the next expansion.
If they do, it better be Tinyfin wearing a pirate hat.
That's the only acceptable way to make that card.
I think questlines can be fixed by gutting card draw. For the last 2 years they've been powercreeping the shit out of draw and that's done horrid things for the game, including making questlines so easy to complete early. Increase the cost of every draw card by half a mana per card drawn, remove all card draw elements from every quest for more thematic rewards, and maybe constructed won't be just competitive masturbation. And it'd also slow down garrote rogue and aggro druid to boot, both decks heavily reliant on drawing absurd numbers of cards in the first 5 turns of a match.