I was trying to build a Warlock deck that could beat combo while still having some control elements. I put in Rin, 1x the spell that turns one minion in each hand into a demon, 2x the 2/3 that burns a card in opponent's library. Then I threw in 4 brewmasters to bounce the Gnomes.
I faced a res priest.
I turned Velen in their hand into a demon. I burned 4 cards in their library (Zillax, the 4 mana res spell, the spell that puts 1 mana copies of all minions in your deck into play, and ?)
I still lost. He got 2x Malygos into play and bursted me down.
It feels like an impossible mission to build a control deck that can beat combo. I think we definitely need some more tools to work with as I'd like to think if I teched in 7 cards to beat a certain deck I could beat that certain deck. Seems fair to me, right?
I think if Combo gives up 7 slots to deal with aggro they should be able to beat aggro as well. Or if aggro gives up 7 slots to beat control then they should be able to do so as well. No archetype should be gimped into an auto loss if built to combat that matchup IMHO. I'm not saying that it should result in an auto-win for the teched deck, but at least even footing if not slightly favored.
The sad truth is that that priest deck has so many rez and summon options that unless you catch both velen AND maly they can still shadow visions into extra mind blasts and kill you. Only way to win is to stack a big pile of armor which is why I play odd warrior
No sir that is not possible with current control cards. Card designers are choosing the meta to be the big polarized confrontation between aggressive decks of all classis against combo/otk decks of all classes.
We all know that fanboy-card design is not about balance, but of orkestrated mindlessness. The skill free aspect of this polarized meta is highly reprehensive.
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Big spell mage, odd mage (some versions), control paladin (cubes), control warlock, odd warrior, fatigue warrior, quest warrior, shudderwock shaman.
Edit: it's worth mentioning that pros bringing control to tournaments is quite different from bringing control to ladder because in tournaments you can ban the OTK decks.
Might be worth a craft. I guess. I'm a f2p player so I have to spend wisely. Not sure that it would fit into my deck with 2x voidlords and the 10 mana DK though. Maybe?
Right now my top craft want it Zilliax. Then maybe the undertaker. (that looks fun) But, maybe mojomaster should move up the list?
Might be worth a craft. I guess. I'm a f2p player so I have to spend wisely. Not sure that it would fit into my deck with 2x voidlords and the 10 mana DK though. Maybe?
Right now my top craft want it Zilliax. Then maybe the undertaker. (that looks fun) But, maybe mojomaster should move up the list?
100% on Zilliax. He's just a solid card to put into most decks, and I'm also obsessed with the Zilliax/Stormwatcher/Corpsetaker package. I don't know what the rest of your collection looks like, so I'd be wary of crafting Zihi since, at the end of the day, it IS a tech card.
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Might be worth a craft. I guess. I'm a f2p player so I have to spend wisely. Not sure that it would fit into my deck with 2x voidlords and the 10 mana DK though. Maybe?
Right now my top craft want it Zilliax. Then maybe the undertaker. (that looks fun) But, maybe mojomaster should move up the list?
I can vouch against Unda. Thankfully I found him instead of crafted him so I can can safely test him out and he....just doesn't work.
I mean I have quite a few slow decks that have 3 good deathrattles (and I mean mech egg and Tirion good) and STILL find him just...too slow.
The only times I could find to play him were times when I was winning and could've won with, say, a faceless on an egg, or an avenging wrath: something that can be used in other situations as well.
If any control deck can be built in a way that defeats combo decks its Warlock, but Gallery Priest is a lot less straightforward in its path to victory than say Mecha'thun or Togwaggle decks. Hitting one great Demonic Project or Gnomeferatu isn't necessarily going to guarantee you victory. I'm not too sold on Zihi in a control deck because you don't tend to be in an aggressive position to capitalise on her (as Even Warlock for example, which can create pressure very easily and use Zihi to lock the gamestate with a bunch of 7 and 8 power dudes out), its kind of like running Loatheb in Control Warrior back in Naxx - you just didn't have the tempo to back it up so he only improved your matchup against Freeze Mage, which was about 90% favoured anyway. Sure she gives you an extra 4 turns vs Mecha'thun decks but they are your easiest wins with project anyway, however I don't feel like she is enough against Gallery Priest, which can still defend itself against a couple of Voidlords while it ramps up again. Ultimately I think Warlock is the best pure class for beating combo decks (aside from maybe Control Priest due to it having a proactive win condition) because of its disruption potential, but combo decks that don't have a strict linear win condition (such as Gallery Priest) can play around this so its still going to be a poor matchup.
Big spell mage, odd mage (some versions), control paladin (cubes), control warlock, odd warrior, fatigue warrior, quest warrior, shudderwock shaman.
Edit: it's worth mentioning that pros bringing control to tournaments is quite different from bringing control to ladder because in tournaments you can ban the OTK decks.
The very fact thet you can ban OTK decks in tournaments says something how repulsive they are. That this is not possible on ladder signify 'more rights' for the tournament player. The fact that you can't ban them on ladder has its reasons. You can fill it in yourself.
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Big spell mage, odd mage (some versions), control paladin (cubes), control warlock, odd warrior, fatigue warrior, quest warrior, shudderwock shaman.
Edit: it's worth mentioning that pros bringing control to tournaments is quite different from bringing control to ladder because in tournaments you can ban the OTK decks.
The very fact thet you can ban OTK decks in tournaments says something how repulsive they are. That this is not possible on ladder signify 'more rights' for the tournament player. The fact that you can't ban them on ladder has its reasons. You can fill it in yourself.
What he means is every player brings a predetermined number of decks (for example at the HCT tournaments they bring four) and each match both players get to ban one of the opponent's decks. Typically if you're packing an OTK deck in your lineup its because you expect to see a lot of Control at the tournament, in which case your other 3 decks are probably also some combination of OTKs, Combos, Deathrattle Hunters and/or Quest Rogues.
Meh! I feel your pain! I just played a priest who played the Spellstone for 2 minions. Got Prophet Velen and Radiant Elemental. 3 Mind Blast to the face for 30 damage. Literally meant that my side of the game was pointless. A bit like playing against Ice Block Quest Mage Combo Priest is so crap to play against with any non-tanking deck.
The very fact thet you can ban OTK decks in tournaments says something how repulsive they are. That this is not possible on ladder signify 'more rights' for the tournament player. The fact that you can't ban them on ladder has its reasons. You can fill it in yourself.
FAKE NEWS! Easy to fact check as well.
The very fact thet you can ban OTK decks in tournaments says something how repulsive they are.
No it doesn't all the banning says is how weak the tournament players selection of decks was vs the deck they banned from their opponents selection. There were several times that control priest (you're chosen class) was banned this does not mean it is a repulsive archetype. You only have to do minimal research into the recent Europe and Americas HCT Winter games to see that whilst there were plenty of OTK decks there they were not always the target of the bans.
That this is not possible on ladder signify 'more rights' for the tournament player.
False equivalency, these are not comparable situations. It would be like saying "that it is not possible to pick the ball up in football (soccer for the US readers) signifies 'more rights' for the rugby players". Tournament players are not seeking for an opponent, they are in a fixed 1 vs 1 game facing a number of decks so can ban one of those that could pose them a problem. Totally different from the ladder situation where an algorithm is trying to match you against one of thousands of people around your skill level.
The fact that you can't ban them on ladder has its reasons. You can fill it in yourself.
On this one you're actually correct, the reasons are pretty simple really and have been covered in multiple posts before. If you could ban on ladder the system could fall apart, as at the most simple of levels aggro would ban control, control would ban combo and combo would ban aggro and at this point no one is able to play.
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Yeah u can and its called Wild mode hence why so few ppl run combo decks there. With stuff like coldlight oracle dirty rat deathlord brann bronzebeard u can surely hit a combo piece and those are only neutral cards.
But ppl still think standard is the more balanced mode. Well not since november it isnt
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I was trying to build a Warlock deck that could beat combo while still having some control elements. I put in Rin, 1x the spell that turns one minion in each hand into a demon, 2x the 2/3 that burns a card in opponent's library. Then I threw in 4 brewmasters to bounce the Gnomes.
I faced a res priest.
I turned Velen in their hand into a demon. I burned 4 cards in their library (Zillax, the 4 mana res spell, the spell that puts 1 mana copies of all minions in your deck into play, and ?)
I still lost. He got 2x Malygos into play and bursted me down.
It feels like an impossible mission to build a control deck that can beat combo. I think we definitely need some more tools to work with as I'd like to think if I teched in 7 cards to beat a certain deck I could beat that certain deck. Seems fair to me, right?
I think if Combo gives up 7 slots to deal with aggro they should be able to beat aggro as well. Or if aggro gives up 7 slots to beat control then they should be able to do so as well. No archetype should be gimped into an auto loss if built to combat that matchup IMHO. I'm not saying that it should result in an auto-win for the teched deck, but at least even footing if not slightly favored.
Galavant Animation
to be fair one game isn't enough to base facts off of
The sad truth is that that priest deck has so many rez and summon options that unless you catch both velen AND maly they can still shadow visions into extra mind blasts and kill you. Only way to win is to stack a big pile of armor which is why I play odd warrior
That's Incredible!
Combo decks are built to defeat control, so it's not gonna be easy to defeat a deck built to counter you unless you heavily change your own deck.
Now that I think about it, I thew in Zola and 1x baleful banker to give me even more bounce to my gnomes. I was really trying to stop combo.
Galavant Animation
No sir that is not possible with current control cards. Card designers are choosing the meta to be the big polarized confrontation between aggressive decks of all classis against combo/otk decks of all classes.
We all know that fanboy-card design is not about balance, but of orkestrated mindlessness. The skill free aspect of this polarized meta is highly reprehensive.
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
Does anyone know if pros are bringing control decks to tournaments? If so, which decks?
Galavant Animation
Sure, Mojomaster Zihi is a great anti-combo tool.
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https://www.hearthpwn.com/news/6374-all-competitor-decks-from-the-upcoming-hct
https://www.hearthpwn.com/news/6371-results-decks-videos-from-the-2018-hct-europe
https://www.hearthpwn.com/news/6369-hct-china-winter-playoffs-2018-decks-and-results
Big spell mage, odd mage (some versions), control paladin (cubes), control warlock, odd warrior, fatigue warrior, quest warrior, shudderwock shaman.
Edit: it's worth mentioning that pros bringing control to tournaments is quite different from bringing control to ladder because in tournaments you can ban the OTK decks.
Might be worth a craft. I guess. I'm a f2p player so I have to spend wisely. Not sure that it would fit into my deck with 2x voidlords and the 10 mana DK though. Maybe?
Right now my top craft want it Zilliax. Then maybe the undertaker. (that looks fun) But, maybe mojomaster should move up the list?
Galavant Animation
100% on Zilliax. He's just a solid card to put into most decks, and I'm also obsessed with the Zilliax/Stormwatcher/Corpsetaker package. I don't know what the rest of your collection looks like, so I'd be wary of crafting Zihi since, at the end of the day, it IS a tech card.
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Join me at Out of Cards!
I can vouch against Unda. Thankfully I found him instead of crafted him so I can can safely test him out and he....just doesn't work.
I mean I have quite a few slow decks that have 3 good deathrattles (and I mean mech egg and Tirion good) and STILL find him just...too slow.
The only times I could find to play him were times when I was winning and could've won with, say, a faceless on an egg, or an avenging wrath: something that can be used in other situations as well.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
If any control deck can be built in a way that defeats combo decks its Warlock, but Gallery Priest is a lot less straightforward in its path to victory than say Mecha'thun or Togwaggle decks. Hitting one great Demonic Project or Gnomeferatu isn't necessarily going to guarantee you victory. I'm not too sold on Zihi in a control deck because you don't tend to be in an aggressive position to capitalise on her (as Even Warlock for example, which can create pressure very easily and use Zihi to lock the gamestate with a bunch of 7 and 8 power dudes out), its kind of like running Loatheb in Control Warrior back in Naxx - you just didn't have the tempo to back it up so he only improved your matchup against Freeze Mage, which was about 90% favoured anyway. Sure she gives you an extra 4 turns vs Mecha'thun decks but they are your easiest wins with project anyway, however I don't feel like she is enough against Gallery Priest, which can still defend itself against a couple of Voidlords while it ramps up again.
Ultimately I think Warlock is the best pure class for beating combo decks (aside from maybe Control Priest due to it having a proactive win condition) because of its disruption potential, but combo decks that don't have a strict linear win condition (such as Gallery Priest) can play around this so its still going to be a poor matchup.
The very fact thet you can ban OTK decks in tournaments says something how repulsive they are. That this is not possible on ladder signify 'more rights' for the tournament player. The fact that you can't ban them on ladder has its reasons. You can fill it in yourself.
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
EASILY, JUST RUN DIRTY RAT OR DEATHLORD! PROBLEMO SOLVEDO
Howlfiend +treachery + defile. If you prepare your board and you Play the combo in the correct moment you can beat any combo deck
What he means is every player brings a predetermined number of decks (for example at the HCT tournaments they bring four) and each match both players get to ban one of the opponent's decks. Typically if you're packing an OTK deck in your lineup its because you expect to see a lot of Control at the tournament, in which case your other 3 decks are probably also some combination of OTKs, Combos, Deathrattle Hunters and/or Quest Rogues.
Meh! I feel your pain!
I just played a priest who played the Spellstone for 2 minions. Got Prophet Velen and Radiant Elemental.
3 Mind Blast to the face for 30 damage.
Literally meant that my side of the game was pointless. A bit like playing against Ice Block Quest Mage
Combo Priest is so crap to play against with any non-tanking deck.
GG! Fun and Interactive.
FAKE NEWS! Easy to fact check as well.
No it doesn't all the banning says is how weak the tournament players selection of decks was vs the deck they banned from their opponents selection. There were several times that control priest (you're chosen class) was banned this does not mean it is a repulsive archetype. You only have to do minimal research into the recent Europe and Americas HCT Winter games to see that whilst there were plenty of OTK decks there they were not always the target of the bans.
False equivalency, these are not comparable situations. It would be like saying "that it is not possible to pick the ball up in football (soccer for the US readers) signifies 'more rights' for the rugby players". Tournament players are not seeking for an opponent, they are in a fixed 1 vs 1 game facing a number of decks so can ban one of those that could pose them a problem. Totally different from the ladder situation where an algorithm is trying to match you against one of thousands of people around your skill level.
On this one you're actually correct, the reasons are pretty simple really and have been covered in multiple posts before. If you could ban on ladder the system could fall apart, as at the most simple of levels aggro would ban control, control would ban combo and combo would ban aggro and at this point no one is able to play.
Arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon. You may be good at chess, but the pigeon is just going to knock all the pieces down, take a shit on the table, and strut around like its victorious.
Yeah u can and its called Wild mode hence why so few ppl run combo decks there. With stuff like coldlight oracle dirty rat deathlord brann bronzebeard u can surely hit a combo piece and those are only neutral cards.
But ppl still think standard is the more balanced mode. Well not since november it isnt