You used to say you only wanted to change cards if it was absolutely necessary.
You wanted us to figure out the meta on our own and not expect nerfs from you.
Rather than nerfing, you said you wanted to release new cards to combat the old.
You were also reluctant to change cards in order for them to have a certain persistence over time, eventually phasing them out to Wild.
However, since Standard and Wild became a thing, you have not been shy about swinging the nerf bat. Why not use more of the tools at your disposal and stop destroying all the cards we enjoy playing with! You have several options:
You know how to nerf, but this often destroys the card in the process.
If a card is problematic in tournaments, you can ban them; leaving the card intact.
If the card is completely out of control, just retire it to Wild, a place where every broken card can live in peace.
Stop destroying our cards!
I am in 100000000% agreement with you. I left WoW because every single time I ground out levels on a class, learned its ins and outs and built a solid foundation of knowledge around it, Blizzard would cave in to namby pamby whiners and completely gut the class. I got so sick and tired of it. I come over to Hearthstone where as you state, was supposed to be a largely, 'hands off,' approach and of course, whining and puling are the rule of the day so Blizzard caves.
They sure are great at making games but they're just plain AWFUL when it comes to anything else outside of that.
no matter how much blizzard Nerf. Pay to win player will still complain about how op are xxx card when they ultra greedy control deck loses to aggro or mid range deck.
These "ultra greedy pay to win player" are the reason you still playing that SMOrcstone:Heroes of Facecraft.
If for some reason you're so afraid of them you mention them in every post, take this, it'll help.
Would downvote if I could, I actually like the nerfs, I think they are fair and needed.
The problem is that they do nothing to address class disparity. IMO what these nerfs really do is limit just about every deck that isn't midrange shaman and control warrior
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SWCCG World Champ- Star Wars CCG, best card game ever
You are making your plea to the wrong group. Blizzard only did these nerfs cause it responded to the mindless mob. An extremely loud and obnoxious, and constantly crying/ranting/complaining mob. If you want these nerfs to stop taking place, the community is who you should address. Good luck with that.
no matter how much blizzard Nerf. Pay to win player will still complain about how op are xxx card when they ultra greedy control deck loses to aggro or mid range deck.
actually you can just say "no matter what, people are going to complain..."
The nerfs to charge, yogg and tuskarr were justifiable across the board. These are undesirable mechanics being cleaned up for the playability of the game.
Where power levels are being tweaked (execute, rockbiter, sergeant, CotW), there is something to be said for the OPs opinion. It's a shame to lose the cards in their current form in wild, where they're just decent cards, not overpowered.
Since three of them are in the base set though, blizz don't have much choice. Taking staples out of the base set altogether by moving them to wild is a detriment to new players and to players returning after a hiatus. Particularly messing with basic cards messes with the experience of creating a brand new account - iimagine being a new player discovering that execute is not usable, for example and have to start worrying about standard/wild on day 1 of playing.
The nerfs to charge, yogg and tuskarr were justifiable across the board. These are undesirable mechanics being cleaned up for the playability of the game.
Where power levels are being tweaked (execute, rockbiter, sergeant, CotW), there is something to be said for the OPs opinion. It's a shame to lose the cards in their current form in wild, where they're just decent cards, not overpowered.
Since three of them are in the base set though, blizz don't have much choice. Taking staples out of the base set altogether by moving them to wild is a detriment to new players and to players returning after a hiatus. Particularly messing with basic cards messes with the experience of creating a brand new account - iimagine being a new player discovering that execute is not usable, for example and have to start worrying about standard/wild on day 1 of playing.
To add to this, I can also explain why CotW was changed and not banned/sent to wild: because 9 mana isn't killing the card. CotW at 9 mana is still a fine spot and hunter won't be ruined for having it there. It'll still kill you if they have any board presence. What 9 mana CotW does is stop the Highmane into CotW wombo combo by giving you more time to recover from it. CotW is a good control card and an example of what a big expensive card should do so there's no reason to nuke it from tournaments or standard.
So mostly this was a mid-year balance of the evergreen set (which they said they'll do as needed), dealing with two of the most controversial cards in a way that removes the part some hated without eliminating their original purpose (adding more totems in and evoking Trolden, not becoming a sometimes-Dr 3 or trying to preserve control decks), and tweaking hunter without nuking him.
One more thing about Wild, The Angry Chicken had a point about that. We probably do not want to treat Wild like a dumping ground for 'bad cards'. It should be a place where you can keep playing your old decks after they cycle of out Standard. We spoil that when we're saying cards that aren't worth staying in Standard should be in Wild.
We probably do not want to treat Wild like a dumping ground for 'bad cards'. It should be a place where you can keep playing your old decks after they cycle of out Standard. We spoil that when we're saying cards that aren't worth staying in Standard should be in Wild.
Oooh, is that what Wild is? Please remind me how nerfing cards preserves old decks in Wild.
I seem to be unable to create Handlock. Oil Rogue, seen it lately? Patron Warrior seems different... Hmm... Well, I suppose it is good people can still play those iconic cards Molten Giant/Blade Flurry/Warsong Commander in Standard at least. Those cards are the best! Sending them to Wild intact would have made the Standard set thinner, and we can't have that.
It's not like it would be at all possible to have Standard pull and push cards between Standard and Wild when there's a new season to attempt balance without crushing cards in the process. Sort of like a shifting Basic/Classic set. An "evergreen" set which will get slowly and surely nerfed over the years is much better. Right?
What possible advantage is there (for a standard player) of having cards retired to wild rather than nerfed. For a standard player, retiring to wild is akin to nerfing the card to unplayability. You are saying that retiring a card to wild (which is akin to nerfing a card to unplayability) is preferable to nerfing it moderately.
Therefore you are arguing that it is better to nerf a card to unplayability than to nerf it moderately. And this conclusion seems obviously wrong
I think nerfing is the wrong way to go about balance in a card game. It diminishes collections immensely when no cards are safe; no decks are safe. Things can go to Wild or banned for tournaments if they are problems. Cards could also be revived from Wild to Standard in the future to create changes in meta, and to let newer players try out some of the old greats. Loatheb comes to mind as a popular example...
You seem to only play Standard, so I don't expect you to understand. However, I find it selfish to want a card to be bad in Standard so nobody will use it, rather than have it be perserved in Wild so some people can use it.
The evergreen set was a bad idea. These are not the last nerfs we will see of it...
please add certain core card like emperor t , lothed, Reno to standard. If not, many deck will unplayable. But I think blizzard will reprint the card ie junior emperor t to earn more profit.
In my opinion it's good to have nerfs in the game, just make sure they are sensible and do not destroy cards.
While we are at it I'd like to see some buffs to promote diversity too.
As for your suggestions OP, tournament bans make sense, not only for balancing but even for giving certain tournaments theme to keep it interesting.
Banishing cards to Wild is yet another good idea, I would go as far to make Wild exclusive cards in some future releases to further promote that gamemode.
But all of these take effort and Blizz is infamously lazy.
Do you seriously believe a simple blanket ban on certain cards is more effort than actually balancing them? You've got to be kidding.
To the OP, I disagree. Balancing cards is always better than just banning them, since, well, they still can be used, they're just not as OP anymore. And especially only banning in tournaments is really stupid, since most people care about the ladder much more and are frustrated with those cards. And as someone actually playing wild, I definitely wouldn't play there anymore if it became a dumping ground for wildly OP cards.
The only problem is that blizzard has the tendency of badly overnerfing cards, which is conceptually identical to a full ban, since no one is gonna use that shit ANYWHERE. Warsong is a perfect example for that; The current version is still better than just dumping the old one into wild, since that would make wild patronstone, but it's too bad that it's unusable now, they might as well have banned it.
I cant' be the only one that reads something like and think: "What...? (If you don't wish to read all of this, just read the last line, that sums it up.)
The reason Blizzard made this changes was because it was absolutely necessary. The changes in the upcoming patch will make it more balanced, plus it gives players a chance to use a bit more variety. If players like to rush to the top (and just only that), it just means they have to change their tactics and the way they play the game.
It's fair to say that some players will not like this, but if players keep queuing to the same rush decks and keep getting beaten by them, the game becomes duller. Now players may say: "Well if they don't like playing against these decks they can play something else", but that would be a problem for Blizzard. They needed to make these changes because if they want players to continue playing their game, they have to let the player be able to make different types of decks. After all, just because one type of deck is considered the best, don't mean everyone will want to play that deck day in and day out.
And another question why should a card be banned from a tournament but not for everyone else? If they have to ban the card in a tournament because it seems unfair, guess what it's broken and it needs to be fixed.
So in short, "What...?" Cards are more balanced, players can be more creative and if it unfair in a tournament, it's unfair in general games too.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Entry for this week's Card Design Competition - Season 8.16:
You used to say you only wanted to change cards if it was absolutely necessary.
You wanted us to figure out the meta on our own and not expect nerfs from you.
Rather than nerfing, you said you wanted to release new cards to combat the old.
You were also reluctant to change cards in order for them to have a certain persistence over time, eventually phasing them out to Wild.
However, since Standard and Wild became a thing, you have not been shy about swinging the nerf bat. Why not use more of the tools at your disposal and stop destroying all the cards we enjoy playing with! You have several options:
You know how to nerf, but this often destroys the card in the process.
If a card is problematic in tournaments, you can ban them; leaving the card intact.
If the card is completely out of control, just retire it to Wild, a place where every broken card can live in peace.
Stop destroying our cards!
What if they released the broken cards balanced in the first place? Would that be okay -- or do you only like cards if they are overpowered?
Wild should not be the garbage bin. Much like Wizards of the Coast have been forced to reckognize Modern's popularity in Magic the Gathering, Wild will inevitably be seeing unofficial tournament formats with a popularity that forces Blizzard to balance cards in Wild as well, lest they risk pushing players who actually love their cards for longer than 2 years away from the game.
I'm only interested in playing Wild. Blizzard should balance cards BEFORE they get dumped into Wild. There STILL are no counters to Dr. Boom in Wild, and they should seriously have fixed him before he hit wild, possibly letting standard contain 3 years of cards as well, because the Standard card pool is way too small for Hearthstone's own good.
More balanced cards, in both senses of the word "More" == Healthier game.
Things Blizzard should have realized before the Beta ended:
1 health does not equal 1 attack.
Compare 3/8 to 5/6. They have the same amount of stats. Player 1 plays the 5/6. Player 2 plays the 3/8. Player 1 hits face. Player 2 hits the 5/6.
Player 1 has a 5/3 in play and hits face. Player 2 has a 3/3 in play.
Health and attack should not have the same opportunity cost, but be individually balanced -- and Divine Spirit should not exist, as a consequence. It's a time bomb. Just make it +4 health.
Sad that you can't downvote on this forum, because i would really like to downvote the OP.
Wild is not a trash mode for shitty overpowered cards. We need balance too, and these cards were even in wild overpowered. I play wild exclusively and i expect it to be balanced. Only because you play your trash mode called Standard doesn't make it that cards that are blantly overpowered sent it there and destroy the whole balance we have there already.
Keep Standard and Wild free from overpowered cards needs balancing patches. And i love them.
OR have overpowered cards in standard, and balance them before letting them out into wild. Hah, and don't allow the OP trash balance in standard from being played in Wild.
Those who whined about yogg should've played wild and played Nerub'ar Weblord. That's the same thing as making him unplayable and WAS preventable. Just no one plays those cards... and people rarely play wild. I think all nerf threads are dumb. Every game has powerful and overly powerful cards. You get them and use them and stfu about it, or play something else. No one's forcing you to play HS with a crappy control deck that loses to Yogg because you take 20 turns to get to your win condition.... seriously.
We probably do not want to treat Wild like a dumping ground for 'bad cards'. It should be a place where you can keep playing your old decks after they cycle of out Standard. We spoil that when we're saying cards that aren't worth staying in Standard should be in Wild.
Oooh, is that what Wild is? Please remind me how nerfing cards preserves old decks in Wild.
I seem to be unable to create Handlock. Oil Rogue, seen it lately? Patron Warrior seems different... Hmm... Well, I suppose it is good people can still play those iconic cards Molten Giant/Blade Flurry/Warsong Commander in Standard at least. Those cards are the best! Sending them to Wild intact would have made the Standard set thinner, and we can't have that.
Warsong commander didn't have a place in ANY format. It was broken and would've been even more broken as the game went on, especially in wild.
As to the others, that's a pretty good argument for not having an evergreen set. You end up having to nerf cards that aren't OP (and yes Molten and many of the other cards were nerfed to protect Standard, not because of balance issues. This was declared at the time of the release) but will mess up Standard. Personally, I'd rather those cards get bumped to Wild if they weren't balance problems.
It's not like it would be at all possible to have Standard pull and push cards between Standard and Wild when there's a new season to attempt balance without crushing cards in the process. Sort of like a shifting Basic/Classic set. An "evergreen" set which will get slowly and surely nerfed over the years is much better. Right?
According to Blizzard? Yes. According to me, ...I'm not so sold and probably lean more towards Kibbler's mindset, though I understand why we need some kind of evergreen set over dropping it all to wild.
But that's for cards that aren't OP and just threaten to 'stay forever' in Standard. That's an argument you can make for cards like Charge and Abusive. Yogg and Tusk weren't 'ok cards that will mess up Standard forever. They needed work. Note that includes a card that's just about to go INTO wild.
What possible advantage is there (for a standard player) of having cards retired to wild rather than nerfed. For a standard player, retiring to wild is akin to nerfing the card to unplayability. You are saying that retiring a card to wild (which is akin to nerfing a card to unplayability) is preferable to nerfing it moderately.
Therefore you are arguing that it is better to nerf a card to unplayability than to nerf it moderately. And this conclusion seems obviously wrong
I think nerfing is the wrong way to go about balance in a card game. It diminishes collections immensely when no cards are safe; no decks are safe. Things can go to Wild or banned for tournaments if they are problems. Cards could also be revived from Wild to Standard in the future to create changes in meta, and to let newer players try out some of the old greats. Loatheb comes to mind as a popular example...
You seem to only play Standard, so I don't expect you to understand. However, I find it selfish to want a card to be bad in Standard so nobody will use it, rather than have it be perserved in Wild so some people can use it.
I don't exactly like it when they GUT a card, like what they did with Warsong and Starving Buzzard. I also don't feel that dropping cards that hurt the game into an Other People's Problem format isn't very healthy either. Wild deserves better than that. If they were to, say, accidentally create the original Charge (1 mana, give all minions charge) that would completely ruin the game in any format. Dumping it down to Wild wouldn't be right.
This isn't MTG who is forced to live with messed up cards since they are printed and that's it. We ARE allowed to make changes with us being a digital game, especially since said card will always be craftable and, thus, easily accessible no matter the format.
At te same time, the point made IS real that every nerf is also damage to the game in other ways. Thus the point is that nerfing is an otpion, but a dangerous one we need to take sparingly.
The evergreen set was a bad idea. These are not the last nerfs we will see of it...
Note that as far as the fact that evergreen is a thing that exists, I agree with the nerfs. If you will have a set that stays and refuse to drop anything down to wild then you have to nerf the thing down until every viable deck MUST rely on expansions to suvive, thus giving them a 2 year life cycle.
I also believe that we need some kind of evergreen set. It's possible, though difficult, for a F2Per to keep up with 2 xpansions and an adventure a year effectively. Also including a 'core set' of 300+ cards on top of all that would be a nightmare.
However, it would be better if we treat 'cards that stagnate standard' differently from 'cards that mess up the game. The latter, like Warsong, Leeroy, and Yogg need to be tweaked. The former, like molten and Blade Furry, needed to be considered for Wild in tact instead.
Note that I also support a Custom game setting as well that allows for bans and allowances and, perhaps, card changes among an inner group.
Those who whined about yogg should've played wild and played Nerub'ar Weblord. That's the same thing as making him unplayable and WAS preventable. Just no one plays those cards... and people rarely play wild. I think all nerf threads are dumb. Every game has powerful and overly powerful cards. You get them and use them and stfu about it, or play something else. No one's forcing you to play HS with a crappy control deck that loses to Yogg because you take 20 turns to get to your win condition.... seriously.
Sarcasm doesn't translate well in text but on the off chance you aren't kidding, Yogg was never a win condition it was a yolo don't lose condition which is bad for the game. It's usually used right before you're about to lose the game and gives you a 5% chance for a crazy come back and a 1% chance to win you the game outright. So 94% of the time when you're supposed to lose you still will but every so often you'll win a game you had no right to win. Imagine a basketball game where one team is up 110-75 but right before the buzzer goes off a player from the losing team is allowed to take a full court shot and if they make it their team automatically wins. Most of the time they'll lose anyways but every so often they'll steal a win and you can't claim to be fair/competitive if you have a rule/card like this.
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Would downvote if I could, I actually like the nerfs, I think they are fair and needed.
The problem is that they do nothing to address class disparity. IMO what these nerfs really do is limit just about every deck that isn't midrange shaman and control warrior
SWCCG World Champ- Star Wars CCG, best card game ever
The nerfs to charge, yogg and tuskarr were justifiable across the board. These are undesirable mechanics being cleaned up for the playability of the game.
Where power levels are being tweaked (execute, rockbiter, sergeant, CotW), there is something to be said for the OPs opinion. It's a shame to lose the cards in their current form in wild, where they're just decent cards, not overpowered.
Since three of them are in the base set though, blizz don't have much choice. Taking staples out of the base set altogether by moving them to wild is a detriment to new players and to players returning after a hiatus. Particularly messing with basic cards messes with the experience of creating a brand new account - iimagine being a new player discovering that execute is not usable, for example and have to start worrying about standard/wild on day 1 of playing.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
Wild isn't a trashbin, dude.
please add certain core card like emperor t , lothed, Reno to standard. If not, many deck will unplayable. But I think blizzard will reprint the card ie junior emperor t to earn more profit.
I cant' be the only one that reads something like and think: "What...? (If you don't wish to read all of this, just read the last line, that sums it up.)
The reason Blizzard made this changes was because it was absolutely necessary. The changes in the upcoming patch will make it more balanced, plus it gives players a chance to use a bit more variety. If players like to rush to the top (and just only that), it just means they have to change their tactics and the way they play the game.
It's fair to say that some players will not like this, but if players keep queuing to the same rush decks and keep getting beaten by them, the game becomes duller. Now players may say: "Well if they don't like playing against these decks they can play something else", but that would be a problem for Blizzard. They needed to make these changes because if they want players to continue playing their game, they have to let the player be able to make different types of decks. After all, just because one type of deck is considered the best, don't mean everyone will want to play that deck day in and day out.
And another question why should a card be banned from a tournament but not for everyone else? If they have to ban the card in a tournament because it seems unfair, guess what it's broken and it needs to be fixed.
So in short, "What...?" Cards are more balanced, players can be more creative and if it unfair in a tournament, it's unfair in general games too.
My Entry for this week's Card Design Competition - Season 8.16:
Would that be okay -- or do you only like cards if they are overpowered?
Wild should not be the garbage bin. Much like Wizards of the Coast have been forced to reckognize Modern's popularity in Magic the Gathering, Wild will inevitably be seeing unofficial tournament formats with a popularity that forces Blizzard to balance cards in Wild as well, lest they risk pushing players who actually love their cards for longer than 2 years away from the game.
I'm only interested in playing Wild.
Blizzard should balance cards BEFORE they get dumped into Wild.
There STILL are no counters to Dr. Boom in Wild, and they should seriously have fixed him before he hit wild, possibly letting standard contain 3 years of cards as well, because the Standard card pool is way too small for Hearthstone's own good.
More balanced cards, in both senses of the word "More" == Healthier game.
Things Blizzard should have realized before the Beta ended:
1 health does not equal 1 attack.
Compare 3/8 to 5/6.
They have the same amount of stats.
Player 1 plays the 5/6.
Player 2 plays the 3/8.
Player 1 hits face.
Player 2 hits the 5/6.
Player 1 has a 5/3 in play and hits face.
Player 2 has a 3/3 in play.
Health and attack should not have the same opportunity cost, but be individually balanced -- and Divine Spirit should not exist, as a consequence. It's a time bomb. Just make it +4 health.
Sad that you can't downvote on this forum, because i would really like to downvote the OP.
Wild is not a trash mode for shitty overpowered cards. We need balance too, and these cards were even in wild overpowered. I play wild exclusively and i expect it to be balanced. Only because you play your trash mode called Standard doesn't make it that cards that are blantly overpowered sent it there and destroy the whole balance we have there already.
Keep Standard and Wild free from overpowered cards needs balancing patches. And i love them.
OR have overpowered cards in standard, and balance them before letting them out into wild. Hah, and don't allow the OP trash balance in standard from being played in Wild.
Those who whined about yogg should've played wild and played Nerub'ar Weblord. That's the same thing as making him unplayable and WAS preventable. Just no one plays those cards... and people rarely play wild. I think all nerf threads are dumb. Every game has powerful and overly powerful cards. You get them and use them and stfu about it, or play something else. No one's forcing you to play HS with a crappy control deck that loses to Yogg because you take 20 turns to get to your win condition.... seriously.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.