Hearthpwn

yeah, the counter is flare.  so let's counter the most annoying deck in the game by only playing one other possible class with one possible counter card.  Gosh, I sure hope I get flare by turn 6 or even my midrange hunter will lose to the goofiness of MC.  The answer to an OP card cannot ever be 1 card in a class specific deck.  If that's  the answer then it is necessary to nerf.  MC is ridiculous.  period

It isn't even important that people weren't playing paladin secrets.  one card should never (once again) be the answer to a problem for an entire deck or concept. 

Quote from Vaelleth >>

Quote from Nevermore76 >>

yeah, the counter is flare.  so let's counter the most annoying deck in the game by only playing one other possible class with one possible counter card.  Gosh, I sure hope I get flare by turn 6 or even my midrange hunter will lose to the goofiness of MC.  The answer to an OP card cannot ever be 1 card in a class specific deck.  If that's  the answer then it is necessary to nerf.  MC is ridiculous.  period

It isn't even important that people weren't playing paladin secrets.  one card should never (once again) be the answer to a problem for an entire deck or concept. 

There are plenty of decks that can beat a secret Paladin, and they don't run Flare.

Warlocks in particular have pretty favorable matchups against Secret Paladin. Zoolock and Demonlock can both match or beat a Paladins early game, while Handlock can have huge Taunts as early as turn 5.

Most Midrange decks are favored as well.

Hunter has Unleash the Hounds to match Muster for Battle, Mad Scientist to pop the shield on Shielded Minibot, followed by Explosive Trap to kill it and any other minions the Paladin has at that point (plus the aforementioned Flare)

Paladin runs the exact same early game, while also running an extra copy of both Consecration and Truesilver Champion and two copies of Equality (generally), plus two Sludge Belcher which Secret Paladin has a hard time removing.

Druid has several forms of big Taunts that they can ramp into before (or at) turn 6, plus a lot of early minions that trade well with what the secret Paladin can drop (not to mention how absolutely amazing Swipe is, plus the fact that they can use Wrath to both remove a minion and cycle a card)

Dragon Priest absolutely destroys Secret Paladins, especially with Twilight Whelp into Wyrmrest Agent.

I think what really makes Secret Paladin so strong (aside from turn 6) is that it's a very unique hybrid (much like Hybrid Hunter). It runs enough early game presence to match aggro, while also having Midrange qualities to outlast aggro as the game moves on. At the same time, it has enough aggro qualities that it IS capable of outracing Midrange and Control and can match them in the mid game, but if things are even in the mid game, it runs out of steam in the late game (especially when it has to devote its resources to removing Taunt, which is the same problem Hybrid Hunter and aggro have)

Mysterious Challenger Paladin has so many counters that it will never need a nerf, and every day people are discovering more and more counters.

So far just to name a few:

• Control Paladin
• Freeze Mage
• Fatigue Warrior
• Just about any Priest deck.

Just about any control deck with sufficient removal beats it. Like someone above said, just save a removal for Mysterious Challenger and then you nullify the card/turn that they built their entire deck around. And Paladin secrets don't need to be played around, you just pop em as fast as you can, and the triggers are all so basic that all you have to do is attack once and 2-3 of the secrets pop, and the threat is gone.

On top of that I'm not sure where everyone is seeing all these Mysterious Challenger Paladins. In the past week I've faced about 4 MC Paladins in 40-50 games. Not exactly common on the ladder. And I only lost to one of them. The power of control.

Patron did hold back some of the fast tempo mid aggro decks, and now that Warsong is nerfed we are seeing these decks again. But the problem with the aggressive meta isn't Mysterious Challenger, he actually gives incentive to play control decks, as MC Paladin beats most aggressive decks, but loses to most control decks. The problem with the overly aggressive meta is and always has been Dr. Boom and Piloted Shredder. I'm tempted to add Mad Scientist to the list, as Kripp said it is a soul crushing card, to me, 3rd most unfun card in the game, but it wasn't as much of a problem pre-GvG aka, before the mess that is Dr. Boom and Piloted Shredder arrived.

Quote from Sisuwolf >>

Mysterious Challenger Paladin has so many counters that it will never need a nerf, and every day people are discovering more and more counters.

So far just to name a few:

• Control Paladin
• Freeze Mage
• Fatigue Warrior
• Just about any Priest deck.

Just about any control deck with sufficient removal beats it. Like someone above said, just save a removal for Mysterious Challenger and then you nullify the card/turn that they built their entire deck around. And Paladin secrets don't need to be played around, you just pop em as fast as you can, and the triggers are all so basic that all you have to do is attack once and 2-3 of the secrets pop, and the threat is gone.

On top of that I'm not sure where everyone is seeing all these Mysterious Challenger Paladins. In the past week I've faced about 4 MC Paladins in 40-50 games. Not exactly common on the ladder. And I only lost to one of them. The power of control.

Patron did hold back some of the fast tempo mid aggro decks, and now that Warsong is nerfed we are seeing these decks again. But the problem with the aggressive meta isn't Mysterious Challenger, he actually gives incentive to play control decks, as MC Paladin beats most aggressive decks, but loses to most control decks. The problem with the overly aggressive meta is and always has been Dr. Boom and Piloted Shredder. I'm tempted to add Mad Scientist to the list, as Kripp said it is a soul crushing card, to me, 3rd most unfun card in the game, but it wasn't as much of a problem pre-GvG aka, before the mess that is Dr. Boom and Piloted Shredder arrived.

And?

Reasonable criticism towards the deck is that it is very powerful yet very simple to play. That it has viable counters changes none of those criticisms. Demon Handlock for example, is a very powerful deck, and it has plenty of counters (to the extent that it is sometimes even a bad deck given the right meta). Bad players don't do well with handlock however, they do very well with secret paladin.

Don't get me wrong, it's good that it has actual counters. We don't need another GP. But the deck's popularity speaks for itself, so does its capability even in the hands of relatively bad players.

But this deck is too easy. Is the overall winrate in the hands of a capable player defendable? That could be. Is its winrate in the hands of a bad player defendable? No, it is not.

Quote from Zoeings >>

Quote from Scipio_77 >>

Quote from Sisuwolf >>

Mysterious Challenger Paladin has so many counters that it will never need a nerf, and every day people are discovering more and more counters.

So far just to name a few:

• Control Paladin
• Freeze Mage
• Fatigue Warrior
• Just about any Priest deck.

Just about any control deck with sufficient removal beats it. Like someone above said, just save a removal for Mysterious Challenger and then you nullify the card/turn that they built their entire deck around. And Paladin secrets don't need to be played around, you just pop em as fast as you can, and the triggers are all so basic that all you have to do is attack once and 2-3 of the secrets pop, and the threat is gone.

On top of that I'm not sure where everyone is seeing all these Mysterious Challenger Paladins. In the past week I've faced about 4 MC Paladins in 40-50 games. Not exactly common on the ladder. And I only lost to one of them. The power of control.

Patron did hold back some of the fast tempo mid aggro decks, and now that Warsong is nerfed we are seeing these decks again. But the problem with the aggressive meta isn't Mysterious Challenger, he actually gives incentive to play control decks, as MC Paladin beats most aggressive decks, but loses to most control decks. The problem with the overly aggressive meta is and always has been Dr. Boom and Piloted Shredder. I'm tempted to add Mad Scientist to the list, as Kripp said it is a soul crushing card, to me, 3rd most unfun card in the game, but it wasn't as much of a problem pre-GvG aka, before the mess that is Dr. Boom and Piloted Shredder arrived.

 

And?

Reasonable criticism towards the deck is that it is very powerful yet very simple to play. That it has viable counters changes none of those criticisms. Demon Handlock for example, is a very powerful deck, and it has plenty of counters (to the extent that it is sometimes even a bad deck given the right meta). Bad players don't do well with handlock however, they do very well with secret paladin.

Don't get me wrong, it's good that it has actual counters. We don't need another GP. But the deck's popularity speaks for itself, so does its capability even in the hands of relatively bad players.

But this deck is too easy. Is the overall winrate in the hands of a capable player defendable? That could be. Is its winrate in the hands of a bad player defendable? No, it is not.

 

 

 Personally I don't believe that just because a deck is harder to play it should have a higher win rate because at the end of the day at the top levels of play it doesn't matter how easy / hard a deck is to play the deck is going to be played flawlessly and balancing around anything but the top levels of play is how you kill off any competitive scene. Basically if you complain about a deck being harder to play just get better at it and it'll be as easy to play as secret paladin. Secret paladin just has an easy learning curve while handlock has a harder one, once you've learnt both decks they're both fairly simple 

Obviously some decks are easier to play than others, the only alternative to that is to play with equal decks (essentially a "poker game").

so this isn't a discussion of principle, it's merely a discussion of where you draw the line. Personally I find that secret paladin has crossed that line, as fairly inexperienced players are achieving very much beyond what they could with other decks. They might not be able to go tip-to-toe with exceptional players, but 7 soccer pros could probably beat 11 soccer amateurs in a full game... that doesn't mean such a handicap is sound match format for general play.

You might disagree, and that's fine. Obviously we want different things from the game.

The problem with requesting a nerf is the way Blizzard tend to nerf cards (see i.a. warsong).

Yes to a reasonable nerf (1 mana or make it legendary or maybe a small stat tweak) but no to a total annihilation of the card.

I said it before. Nerf stats to 5/5 then it will be balanced.  Emperor and sylvanas are 5/5 with a powerful effect, Mc should be the same

Quote from Human_Guy >>

Quote from Zoeings >>

Quote from Scipio_77 >>

Quote from Sisuwolf >>

[

 Personally I don't believe that just because a deck is harder to play it should have a higher win rate because at the end of the day at the top levels of play it doesn't matter how easy / hard a deck is to play the deck is going to be played flawlessly and balancing around anything but the top levels of play is how you kill off any competitive scene. Basically if you complain about a deck being harder to play just get better at it and it'll be as easy to play as secret paladin. Secret paladin just has an easy learning curve while handlock has a harder one, once you've learnt both decks they're both fairly simple 

 That is the dumbest thing anyone said anywhere ever.

It does not matter at top level since all people are good enough anyway? So why the fuck are there even tournaments? So people can enjoy the RNG?

If all progamers are equally skilled then why the fuck do some win more?

Why aren't HS best gamers 12 year old kids that press the hunter heropower?

Quote from jazzfan27 >>

The counter is the opportunity cost of all those paladin secrets in your deck.

Quote from PsyyKik >>

Except that before this card literally no one was playing paladin secrets

Quote from DerivativePox >>

 

As many have noted, the cost in terms of deckbuilding is quite steep. If I haven't drawn Mysterious Challenger by turn 6 and has drawn more than 1 secret, I'm in a lot of trouble.

It's a cool card. Basically, you downgrade your deck in order to have to privilege to play the most powerful card in Hearthstone. Risk and Reward. Lots of Risk, and lots of reward.

You guys do realize that pretty much nobody brought a deck you claim to be 'totally op' the the world championship of this game?!

Quote from phuture2k >>

^ this

Quote from phuture2k >>

wrong page. should be the last post of the previous page :P

Quote from Tyranastraszz >>

Quote from fabisco >>

You guys do realize that pretty much nobody brought a deck you claim to be 'totally op' the the world championship of this game?!

 i saw one yesterday,but not remember who play with secret pala vs oil rogue (played by purple) : D

For those that say MC is not broken or the deck is not so powerful to be brought in tournaments, they can check the world championship Kranich vs Zoro right now...

its not that the card is op, the problem is that brings lots of tempo, with those five secrets. giving one protector: get down, an easy trade: repentance, a huge buff: avenge, a tempo board redeptiom and more board buffs with competitive. The card is super strong, probably the strongest, but we need to think at the whole deck, its all made for that dr6. if u don't get it on curve, and get lots of secrets before, the deck gets weaker...

that true, but the game needs broken cards otherwise there is nothing super fun to play with. i don't disagree with boom and challenger.. whoever doesn't like to be defeated with it, just play with it or make a huge counter... 

Here's a simple nerf. Switch the Epic and Legendary status of Mysterious Challenger with Eadric the Pure.