Same for Lightning Bloom, and Primal Dungeoneer (because Blizzard will never nerf back the elemental package for dust reason) imo.
I feel like it would be healthier for the game to revamp a tiny bit various stats on most played cards (across all classes). The difference of power level and efficiency between those cards and sub-optimal cards is really high, and comebacks are harder than before.
But I guess they are waiting for the next set of cards to see what to fix.
(I'm not a pro neither a legend, just a hearthstone lover).
I play mostly wild and sincerely it feels more fair than standard lately. The burst potential in standard and the damage potential for the meta decks is absurd. Seems more balanced in wild.
Troublemaker and Inquisitor are late game minions. Expensive, late game cards should be powerful, otherwise they'd see no play. Lots of 8-cost cards are similarly powerful. As for Rhino, hunters have little card draw, no mana cheating, no heal... if they're going to be competitive at all, their midgame cards need to be impactful, because they can typically only play 1 per turn.
Rhino and Troublemaker are fine. Rhino feels too strong only when buffed; if there is a problem card, it’s Warsong Wrangler. Troublemaker is 8 mana and semi-random, it’s a lot of stats but 6 immediate damage at most.
I do agree on the Inquisitor tho - I think they should either remove Rush or the Demon tag for the sake of Felosophy and more importantly, N’Zoth.
This is the new direction for HS, which Team 5 has confirmed several times already, so don't expect any changes anytime soon. Games are supposed to be short, intense and not requiring too much thinking or concentration. You sit down on the toilet or bus chair, run the game, get a dopamine shot after SMOrc'ing some random dude and you are ready to buy more packs. It may not be very good for the game in a long term (because some players will just leave the game for good), but it's an excellent short-term business model, and Activision loves easy money.
Expensive control cards are only printed for naive fools (like me) who believe they can play longer games, but in the end they only serve as free wins for aggro decks. If no one manages to build at least one T2 control deck in this expansion, I'm done with HS. Pure aggro / tempo HS is just not my cup of tea.
This is the new direction for HS, which Team 5 has confirmed several times already, so don't expect any changes anytime soon. Games are supposed to be short, intense and not requiring too much thinking or concentration. You sit down on the toilet or bus chair, run the game, get a dopamine shot after SMOrc'ing some random dude and you are ready to buy more packs. It may not be very good for the game in a long term (because some players will just leave the game for good), but it's an excellent short-term business model, and Activision loves easy money.
Expensive control cards are only printed for naive fools (like me) who believe they can play longer games, but in the end they only serve as free wins for aggro decks. If no one manages to build at least one T2 control deck in this expansion, I'm done with HS. Pure aggro / tempo HS is just not my cup of tea.
Two out of the three cards being complained about in this thread are expensive late-game cards.
Also, if your control deck isn't able to handle aggro, it's not really a control deck. It's just a top-heavy midrange deck that deserves to lose. A real control deck is favored against aggro. The reason control is suffering right now is because Deathrattle Demon Hunter, a powerful midrange deck, is so popular. Control cannot deal with the relentless board presence of midrange.
The real problem is that aggro is not able to keep DRDH in check. A midrange deck should lose against aggro, but DRDH is actually favored against many aggro lists. I think Felrattler may actually be the low-key problem card.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
First time I've seen a Troublemaker nerf thread, at least you are keeping things fresh for us.
About Inquisitor and Rhino, I understand why they are very frustrating against some decks, but they are also complete trash against other decks where they can't take advantage of the rush keyword.
This is the new direction for HS, which Team 5 has confirmed several times already, so don't expect any changes anytime soon. Games are supposed to be short, intense and not requiring too much thinking or concentration.
As far as I know this was already the intended direction when the game launched. They have always been very clear about their intention to mitigate long games and weaken fatigue strategies in any way they can. And they were also clear since the beginning that they want Hearthstone to be easy to play but hard to master.
Expensive control cards are only printed for naive fools (like me) who believe they can play longer games, but in the end they only serve as free wins for aggro decks. If no one manages to build at least one T2 control deck in this expansion, I'm done with HS. Pure aggro / tempo HS is just not my cup of tea.
There are many viable control decks in every meta I can think of. The issue with naive fools like you is they make very greedy deck expecting to face other control decks, and expect to play control games like fatigue games, which has never been the correct way to play control in Hearthstone, unless you have a "god" win condition like DK uther or Mecha'thun. A good control deck is not a free win for aggro, it's quite the opposite. Go tell odd warriors that they are free wins against face hunters and see their reaction. And it's wild so aggro decks are MUCH better than standard ones.
If you really like to play big cards like me, I would suggest you to play Wild, there are many crazy cards out there that can keep you alive long enough to play some other big crazy card.
Troublemaker and Inquisitor are late game minions. Expensive, late game cards should be powerful, otherwise they'd see no play. Lots of 8-cost cards are similarly powerful. As for Rhino, hunters have little card draw, no mana cheating, no heal... if they're going to be competitive at all, their midgame cards need to be impactful, because they can typically only play 1 per turn.
Barack Obama wants to have a talk with you. Have you checked face hunter decks in standard these days? Tracking, Barack, Warsong lady, Quick Shot...Hunters have enough card draw, the deck wouldn't work anyway if they didn't.
As for the "lots of 8-cost cards are similarly powerful" things, please go ahead and name 3 standard 8-cost cards that are Inquisitor level of powerful. I agree for Troublemaker, but Inquisitor is a different story. You just instantly lose to it if you can't immediately remove it and N'Zoth brings it back guaranteed. It's also pure insanity in arena.
The problems in this meta are 3 mana 2/5 Rush/Windfury Elemental guy, 3/2 Whack-your-opponent Hammer, Inquisitor braindead face guy, Warsong lady's buffs are too big (or nerf Rhino), and the deathrattle chain for dh is way too consistent (and that will increase with every new dr card that fits the archtype, so prepare for more of this crap). Control decks have too few answers to dr because clearing the board doesn't stop spawning stuff. If you want to do anything about this meta, nerf Inquisitor, release some efficient silence options, or a silencing secret that triggers after battlecry.
Standard needs a lot more than just healing, more board clears, or questlines (lol) to stop dr dh and the aggro stuff that can sometimes beat it.
There are many viable control decks in every meta I can think of.
Not it this meta. Control Priest used to be good (before the nerf) in higher ranks (top legend), now he's average there and rubbish everywhere else.
The issue with naive fools like you is they make very greedy deck expecting to face other control decks, and expect to play control games like fatigue games, which has never been the correct way to play control in Hearthstone, unless you have a "god" win condition like DK uther or Mecha'thun.
It's Team 5's fault, not mine. I just want to play expensive, late game cards with satisfying, huge effects. To do this, I must ensure my deck's survival up to certain point in the game by whatever means necessary. If I could use minions and board presence to achieve that, I would. Unfortunately, there are not many good, defensive minions in the game right now, so control decks have to rely mostly on spells (removals and heals) but they are not even enough. Warlock is a good example, he has solid win conditions (Jaraxxus, Tickatus, Envoy), but he lacks tools to survive long enough to use them, because aggro's damage output is too high for him.
That's no coincidence though, Team 5 does it on purpose, because they don't want control decks to be good against aggro, as they've openly admitted in AMA.
If you really like to play big cards like me, I would suggest you to play Wild, there are many crazy cards out there that can keep you alive long enough to play some other big crazy card.
No can do, I'm F2P and I can't afford to keep wild collection.
Barack Obama wants to have a talk with you. Have you checked face hunter decks in standard these days? Tracking, Barack, Warsong lady, Quick Shot...Hunters have enough card draw, the deck wouldn't work anyway if they didn't.
Tracking, Warsong and Quick Shot are tutor/cycle, not exactly draw. They'll run out out resources, fast, if they play more than one card a turn. Barak is draw, but it's not great unless the hunter has managed to play Mankrik, first. And then the cards drawn can be pretty low impact in the midgame; the nice thing being that you don't end up top-decking those cheap spells.
As for the "lots of 8-cost cards are similarly powerful" things, please go ahead and name 3 standard 8-cost cards that are Inquisitor level of powerful.
Guardian Animals, Cenarion Ward, Jewel of N'Zoth, Primordial Protector, Twisting Nether. There's five, pick your favorite three.
It's Team 5's fault, not mine. I just want to play expensive, late game cards with satisfying, huge effects. To do this, I must ensure my deck's survival up to certain point in the game by whatever means necessary. If I could use minions and board presence to achieve that, I would. Unfortunately, there are not many good, defensive minions in the game right now, so control decks have to rely mostly on spells (removals and heals) but they are not even enough. Warlock is a good example, he has solid win conditions (Jaraxxus, Tickatus, Envoy), but he lacks tools to survive long enough to use them, because aggro's damage output is too high for him.
Yeah, I'd love to play slow, expensive, awesome cards, but it's not just aggro's fault that we can't. Aggro has a purpose, which is to keep the mana-cheating decks in line. You want to solve the aggro "problem" in hearthstone? Can't do that without solving the mana-cheating problem, as well. (Especially in those classes that also have insane card draw.)
Can't do that without solving the mana-cheating problem, as well. (Especially in those classes that also have insane card draw.)
There's an easy way to fix it: stop printing them.
Also, I don't think that being able to deal 40-50 (mostly) unblockable damage in 5-6 turns is a good way to fix anything in Hearthstone... This only kills any archetype variety, since every deck has to rely on tempo, otherwise it's dead. And the funny part is, that some classes can't even play tempo, because Team 5 refuses to provide them with any tempo cards (like Priest, Mage or Warlock).
They gave Zoolock (the only tempo deck Warlock ever had) no support and they are trying to push new archetypes again, Handlock and Questline Warlock (both seem very slow), instead of reinforcing the old ones (Demon Warlock, Soul Fragment Warlock, Neeru Warlock). Demon Hunter is the new Warlock (cool dude with demons) and Warlock has no place in the game right now.
Rhino and Troublemaker are more than fine. Are they powerful? yes, but they're beyond predictable (Rhino especially) and I feel can be played around. Sometimes they beat you, sometimes you beat them.
Inquisitor probably needs to be toned down a bit. I think either a mana increase to 9, dropping the 'demon' tribe or making the rush/attack face an outcast stipulation would be more than a fair adjustment to the card while still keeping it powerful in the late game.
Barack Obama wants to have a talk with you. Have you checked face hunter decks in standard these days? Tracking, Barack, Warsong lady, Quick Shot...Hunters have enough card draw, the deck wouldn't work anyway if they didn't.
Tracking, Warsong and Quick Shot are tutor/cycle, not exactly draw. They'll run out out resources, fast, if they play more than one card a turn. Barak is draw, but it's not great unless the hunter has managed to play Mankrik, first. And then the cards drawn can be pretty low impact in the midgame; the nice thing being that you don't end up top-decking those cheap spells.
As for the "lots of 8-cost cards are similarly powerful" things, please go ahead and name 3 standard 8-cost cards that are Inquisitor level of powerful.
Guardian Animals, Cenarion Ward, Jewel of N'Zoth, Primordial Protector, Twisting Nether. There's five, pick your favorite three.
Warsong lady's buffs are too big (or nerf Rhino)
Hard disagree.
Warsong has a body, so it's not just classic cycling, Quick Shot is cycling + damage, so where do you draw the line between cycling and drawing? Cards that draw 1 card are also card draw if they have an impact themselves.
Twisting Nether is nowhere near as powerful as Inquisitor in standard, 3 of your 5 cards are only good standard cards because of druid ramp, so if anything, the problem is extra mana crystals. Cenarion Ward is not even a good card on its own. You have to copy it to make it a decent play or play the card on t4 or for 0 mana with Lady Mana Cheat because the 8-drop is usually not good enough for standard unless you get lucky af. Inquisitor can just deal 16 face when unchecked and does 8 face when it hits + removes a thing, which is sooooo much stronger than any of the cards you mentioned. I have not even seen a single Jewel of N'Zoth in standard in about 3 months. Where is that card even played?
I played some hunter to see what the problem cards are and it is very apparent that the deck needs Warsong and/or Rhino, so one of these cards is the power card, no doubt.
"Rhino and Troublemaker are more than fine. Are they powerful? yes, but they're beyond predictable (Rhino especially) and I feel can be played around. Sometimes they beat you, sometimes you beat them.
Inquisitor probably needs to be toned down a bit. I think either a mana increase to 9, dropping the 'demon' tribe or making the rush/attack face an outcast stipulation would be more than a fair adjustment to the card while still keeping it powerful in the late game."
It's pretty difficult for some decks to play around Rhino, but I get your point.
It would already be helpful if Blizzard changed Freeze in such a way that Inquisitor cannot attack while it's frozen. That never made much sense, even if you read the actual meaning of the Freeze keyword. I would probably nerf it to a 7/7 over a 9 mana card. Making it an outcast card could be an elegant nerf, but then again, that opens up Studies mana discounts.
Troublemaker and Inquisitor are late game minions. Expensive, late game cards should be powerful, otherwise they'd see no play. Lots of 8-cost cards are similarly powerful. As for Rhino, hunters have little card draw, no mana cheating, no heal... if they're going to be competitive at all, their midgame cards need to be impactful, because they can typically only play 1 per turn.
Inquisitor probably doesn't need Rush when it can already pseudo-charge, Troublemaker is incredibly powerful and Tundra Rhino can be tutored out and handbuffed directly from the deck.
I agree that these cards being strong is sensible, and effectively slow Warrior decks aren't meta-relevant at the moment but that doesn't mean there isn't a conversation to have about how proactive and game ending these cards are. Especially when they aren't just powerful swing cards/game enders, but also have a lot of long-term power.
I mean I think there's a conversation to be had about counterspell, freezing trap and oh my yogg being too disruptive in a game that has barely any disruption in it, and at the moment *none* of those cards are relevant at all.
Barack Obama wants to have a talk with you. Have you checked face hunter decks in standard these days? Tracking, Barack, Warsong lady, Quick Shot...Hunters have enough card draw, the deck wouldn't work anyway if they didn't.
Tracking, Warsong and Quick Shot are tutor/cycle, not exactly draw. They'll run out out resources, fast, if they play more than one card a turn. Barak is draw, but it's not great unless the hunter has managed to play Mankrik, first. And then the cards drawn can be pretty low impact in the midgame; the nice thing being that you don't end up top-decking those cheap spells.
As for the "lots of 8-cost cards are similarly powerful" things, please go ahead and name 3 standard 8-cost cards that are Inquisitor level of powerful.
Guardian Animals, Cenarion Ward, Jewel of N'Zoth, Primordial Protector, Twisting Nether. There's five, pick your favorite three.
Warsong lady's buffs are too big (or nerf Rhino)
Hard disagree.
Warsong has a body, so it's not just classic cycling, Quick Shot is cycling + damage, so where do you draw the line between cycling and drawing? Cards that draw 1 card are also card draw if they have an impact themselves.
Twisting Nether is nowhere near as powerful as Inquisitor in standard, 3 of your 5 cards are only good standard cards because of druid ramp, so if anything, the problem is extra mana crystals. Cenarion Ward is not even a good card on its own. You have to copy it to make it a decent play or play the card on t4 or for 0 mana with Lady Mana Cheat because the 8-drop is usually not good enough for standard unless you get lucky af. Inquisitor can just deal 16 face when unchecked and does 8 face when it hits + removes a thing, which is sooooo much stronger than any of the cards you mentioned. I have not even seen a single Jewel of N'Zoth in standard in about 3 months. Where is that card even played?
I played some hunter to see what the problem cards are and it is very apparent that the deck needs Warsong and/or Rhino, so one of these cards is the power card, no doubt.
"Rhino and Troublemaker are more than fine. Are they powerful? yes, but they're beyond predictable (Rhino especially) and I feel can be played around. Sometimes they beat you, sometimes you beat them.
Inquisitor probably needs to be toned down a bit. I think either a mana increase to 9, dropping the 'demon' tribe or making the rush/attack face an outcast stipulation would be more than a fair adjustment to the card while still keeping it powerful in the late game."
It's pretty difficult for some decks to play around Rhino, but I get your point.
It would already be helpful if Blizzard changed Freeze in such a way that Inquisitor cannot attack while it's frozen. That never made much sense, even if you read the actual meaning of the Freeze keyword. I would probably nerf it to a 7/7 over a 9 mana card. Making it an outcast card could be an elegant nerf, but then again, that opens up Studies mana discounts.
Card Cycle is a card that gives you 0 card advantage, card draw is a card that gives you at least 1 card advantage (so Arcane Intellect is card draw). Even if the card gives tempo (i.e. a body), the card is still card cycle, but it gives tempo at the same time. Though Warsong Wrangler is actually a tutor, since it draws a specific card from your deck. Which is typically something Hunter needs because it can't afford to just draw cards without tempo because it can't play from behind.
Having said that, Tundra Rhino's ability to be overstated, and then both take the board *while* often dealing large amounts of face damage is intense and actually *does* let Hunter play from behind which is typically one of their weaknesses. I dunno if it's Tundra Rhino that needs nerfed (the card probably could have slightly less health if they do need to nerf it), though.
I played some hunter to see what the problem cards are and it is very apparent that the deck needs Warsong and/or Rhino, so one of these cards is the power card, no doubt.
Of course they're powerful. Of course the current "face" hunter deck needs them to be competitive. But they're not a problem. Hunter having one competitive deck is not a problem. And if you nerf either or both of those cards, hunter probably becomes unplayable in the current meta.
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Illidari Inquisitor
Troublemaker
Trampling Rhino
These cards are unfairly strong and feel like cheating every time they are played
Same for Lightning Bloom, and Primal Dungeoneer (because Blizzard will never nerf back the elemental package for dust reason) imo.
I feel like it would be healthier for the game to revamp a tiny bit various stats on most played cards (across all classes). The difference of power level and efficiency between those cards and sub-optimal cards is really high, and comebacks are harder than before.
But I guess they are waiting for the next set of cards to see what to fix.
(I'm not a pro neither a legend, just a hearthstone lover).
I play mostly wild and sincerely it feels more fair than standard lately. The burst potential in standard and the damage potential for the meta decks is absurd. Seems more balanced in wild.
Troublemaker and Inquisitor are late game minions. Expensive, late game cards should be powerful, otherwise they'd see no play. Lots of 8-cost cards are similarly powerful. As for Rhino, hunters have little card draw, no mana cheating, no heal... if they're going to be competitive at all, their midgame cards need to be impactful, because they can typically only play 1 per turn.
Rhino and Troublemaker are fine. Rhino feels too strong only when buffed; if there is a problem card, it’s Warsong Wrangler. Troublemaker is 8 mana and semi-random, it’s a lot of stats but 6 immediate damage at most.
I do agree on the Inquisitor tho - I think they should either remove Rush or the Demon tag for the sake of Felosophy and more importantly, N’Zoth.
This is the new direction for HS, which Team 5 has confirmed several times already, so don't expect any changes anytime soon. Games are supposed to be short, intense and not requiring too much thinking or concentration. You sit down on the toilet or bus chair, run the game, get a dopamine shot after SMOrc'ing some random dude and you are ready to buy more packs. It may not be very good for the game in a long term (because some players will just leave the game for good), but it's an excellent short-term business model, and Activision loves easy money.
Expensive control cards are only printed for naive fools (like me) who believe they can play longer games, but in the end they only serve as free wins for aggro decks. If no one manages to build at least one T2 control deck in this expansion, I'm done with HS. Pure aggro / tempo HS is just not my cup of tea.
Two out of the three cards being complained about in this thread are expensive late-game cards.
Also, if your control deck isn't able to handle aggro, it's not really a control deck. It's just a top-heavy midrange deck that deserves to lose. A real control deck is favored against aggro. The reason control is suffering right now is because Deathrattle Demon Hunter, a powerful midrange deck, is so popular. Control cannot deal with the relentless board presence of midrange.
The real problem is that aggro is not able to keep DRDH in check. A midrange deck should lose against aggro, but DRDH is actually favored against many aggro lists. I think Felrattler may actually be the low-key problem card.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
First time I've seen a Troublemaker nerf thread, at least you are keeping things fresh for us.
About Inquisitor and Rhino, I understand why they are very frustrating against some decks, but they are also complete trash against other decks where they can't take advantage of the rush keyword.
As far as I know this was already the intended direction when the game launched. They have always been very clear about their intention to mitigate long games and weaken fatigue strategies in any way they can. And they were also clear since the beginning that they want Hearthstone to be easy to play but hard to master.
There are many viable control decks in every meta I can think of. The issue with naive fools like you is they make very greedy deck expecting to face other control decks, and expect to play control games like fatigue games, which has never been the correct way to play control in Hearthstone, unless you have a "god" win condition like DK uther or Mecha'thun. A good control deck is not a free win for aggro, it's quite the opposite. Go tell odd warriors that they are free wins against face hunters and see their reaction. And it's wild so aggro decks are MUCH better than standard ones.
If you really like to play big cards like me, I would suggest you to play Wild, there are many crazy cards out there that can keep you alive long enough to play some other big crazy card.
Barack Obama wants to have a talk with you. Have you checked face hunter decks in standard these days? Tracking, Barack, Warsong lady, Quick Shot...Hunters have enough card draw, the deck wouldn't work anyway if they didn't.
As for the "lots of 8-cost cards are similarly powerful" things, please go ahead and name 3 standard 8-cost cards that are Inquisitor level of powerful. I agree for Troublemaker, but Inquisitor is a different story. You just instantly lose to it if you can't immediately remove it and N'Zoth brings it back guaranteed. It's also pure insanity in arena.
The problems in this meta are 3 mana 2/5 Rush/Windfury Elemental guy, 3/2 Whack-your-opponent Hammer, Inquisitor braindead face guy, Warsong lady's buffs are too big (or nerf Rhino), and the deathrattle chain for dh is way too consistent (and that will increase with every new dr card that fits the archtype, so prepare for more of this crap). Control decks have too few answers to dr because clearing the board doesn't stop spawning stuff. If you want to do anything about this meta, nerf Inquisitor, release some efficient silence options, or a silencing secret that triggers after battlecry.
Standard needs a lot more than just healing, more board clears, or questlines (lol) to stop dr dh and the aggro stuff that can sometimes beat it.
Not it this meta. Control Priest used to be good (before the nerf) in higher ranks (top legend), now he's average there and rubbish everywhere else.
It's Team 5's fault, not mine. I just want to play expensive, late game cards with satisfying, huge effects. To do this, I must ensure my deck's survival up to certain point in the game by whatever means necessary. If I could use minions and board presence to achieve that, I would. Unfortunately, there are not many good, defensive minions in the game right now, so control decks have to rely mostly on spells (removals and heals) but they are not even enough. Warlock is a good example, he has solid win conditions (Jaraxxus, Tickatus, Envoy), but he lacks tools to survive long enough to use them, because aggro's damage output is too high for him.
That's no coincidence though, Team 5 does it on purpose, because they don't want control decks to be good against aggro, as they've openly admitted in AMA.
No can do, I'm F2P and I can't afford to keep wild collection.
Inquisitor in Arena = gg. But iirc they lowered the offering rate alread? Still, a damn beast in arena.
Tracking, Warsong and Quick Shot are tutor/cycle, not exactly draw. They'll run out out resources, fast, if they play more than one card a turn. Barak is draw, but it's not great unless the hunter has managed to play Mankrik, first. And then the cards drawn can be pretty low impact in the midgame; the nice thing being that you don't end up top-decking those cheap spells.
Guardian Animals, Cenarion Ward, Jewel of N'Zoth, Primordial Protector, Twisting Nether. There's five, pick your favorite three.
Hard disagree.
Yeah, I'd love to play slow, expensive, awesome cards, but it's not just aggro's fault that we can't. Aggro has a purpose, which is to keep the mana-cheating decks in line. You want to solve the aggro "problem" in hearthstone? Can't do that without solving the mana-cheating problem, as well. (Especially in those classes that also have insane card draw.)
Trouble maker being in the list discredits the entire post. What an absurd card to complain about lol
There's an easy way to fix it: stop printing them.
Also, I don't think that being able to deal 40-50 (mostly) unblockable damage in 5-6 turns is a good way to fix anything in Hearthstone... This only kills any archetype variety, since every deck has to rely on tempo, otherwise it's dead. And the funny part is, that some classes can't even play tempo, because Team 5 refuses to provide them with any tempo cards (like Priest, Mage or Warlock).
They gave Zoolock (the only tempo deck Warlock ever had) no support and they are trying to push new archetypes again, Handlock and Questline Warlock (both seem very slow), instead of reinforcing the old ones (Demon Warlock, Soul Fragment Warlock, Neeru Warlock). Demon Hunter is the new Warlock (cool dude with demons) and Warlock has no place in the game right now.
Rhino and Troublemaker are more than fine. Are they powerful? yes, but they're beyond predictable (Rhino especially) and I feel can be played around. Sometimes they beat you, sometimes you beat them.
Inquisitor probably needs to be toned down a bit. I think either a mana increase to 9, dropping the 'demon' tribe or making the rush/attack face an outcast stipulation would be more than a fair adjustment to the card while still keeping it powerful in the late game.
Warsong has a body, so it's not just classic cycling, Quick Shot is cycling + damage, so where do you draw the line between cycling and drawing? Cards that draw 1 card are also card draw if they have an impact themselves.
Twisting Nether is nowhere near as powerful as Inquisitor in standard, 3 of your 5 cards are only good standard cards because of druid ramp, so if anything, the problem is extra mana crystals. Cenarion Ward is not even a good card on its own. You have to copy it to make it a decent play or play the card on t4 or for 0 mana with Lady Mana Cheat because the 8-drop is usually not good enough for standard unless you get lucky af. Inquisitor can just deal 16 face when unchecked and does 8 face when it hits + removes a thing, which is sooooo much stronger than any of the cards you mentioned. I have not even seen a single Jewel of N'Zoth in standard in about 3 months. Where is that card even played?
I played some hunter to see what the problem cards are and it is very apparent that the deck needs Warsong and/or Rhino, so one of these cards is the power card, no doubt.
"Rhino and Troublemaker are more than fine. Are they powerful? yes, but they're beyond predictable (Rhino especially) and I feel can be played around. Sometimes they beat you, sometimes you beat them.
Inquisitor probably needs to be toned down a bit. I think either a mana increase to 9, dropping the 'demon' tribe or making the rush/attack face an outcast stipulation would be more than a fair adjustment to the card while still keeping it powerful in the late game."
It's pretty difficult for some decks to play around Rhino, but I get your point.
It would already be helpful if Blizzard changed Freeze in such a way that Inquisitor cannot attack while it's frozen. That never made much sense, even if you read the actual meaning of the Freeze keyword. I would probably nerf it to a 7/7 over a 9 mana card. Making it an outcast card could be an elegant nerf, but then again, that opens up Studies mana discounts.
And how did they decide inquisitor shouldn't be a legendary like king krush? better than king krush in every way and you play 2 of them
Inquisitor probably doesn't need Rush when it can already pseudo-charge, Troublemaker is incredibly powerful and Tundra Rhino can be tutored out and handbuffed directly from the deck.
I agree that these cards being strong is sensible, and effectively slow Warrior decks aren't meta-relevant at the moment but that doesn't mean there isn't a conversation to have about how proactive and game ending these cards are. Especially when they aren't just powerful swing cards/game enders, but also have a lot of long-term power.
I mean I think there's a conversation to be had about counterspell, freezing trap and oh my yogg being too disruptive in a game that has barely any disruption in it, and at the moment *none* of those cards are relevant at all.
Card Cycle is a card that gives you 0 card advantage, card draw is a card that gives you at least 1 card advantage (so Arcane Intellect is card draw). Even if the card gives tempo (i.e. a body), the card is still card cycle, but it gives tempo at the same time. Though Warsong Wrangler is actually a tutor, since it draws a specific card from your deck. Which is typically something Hunter needs because it can't afford to just draw cards without tempo because it can't play from behind.
Having said that, Tundra Rhino's ability to be overstated, and then both take the board *while* often dealing large amounts of face damage is intense and actually *does* let Hunter play from behind which is typically one of their weaknesses. I dunno if it's Tundra Rhino that needs nerfed (the card probably could have slightly less health if they do need to nerf it), though.
Of course they're powerful. Of course the current "face" hunter deck needs them to be competitive. But they're not a problem. Hunter having one competitive deck is not a problem. And if you nerf either or both of those cards, hunter probably becomes unplayable in the current meta.