Its funny how this post starts with the problem being so complicated and "deep". When actually tempo rogue's winrate is only so much better than the 2nd best deck that nerfing a single important card with 1 stat point could put it behind few decks. We are not talking about blatantly op deck. We are just talking about a deck that has the highest winrate but still reasonable.
Then continuing with cards like shadowstep(which is the worst card in tempo rogue list and best lists doest even run the card if excluding nomi lists that target warrior matchup and are worse in every other matchup).
Then talking about Rogue not getting hall of famed or nerfed enough. Just telling there are 7 class cards in hall of fame (if we exclude the odd and even cards which rotated with genn and baku). Rogue has 1 card in hall of fame which is more than the average.
Rogue is also one of the most nerfed classes in HS history.
Also you say rogue gets a lot good cards from expansions. I agree rogue got a lot of good cards last expansion, which is really strange since Rogue has most of the time received really weak sets. Just scroll through all the expansion cards and calculate how many of those has been played in Rogue's best deck at that time. You can almost count them with two hands. That has to do with Rogue's basic set being one of the strongest. And being strong doesnt mean it should be nerfed. The reason why rogue is so liked and played is that Blizzard did really good job designing their basic set. Cards like preparation are the soul of the class and removing it from the game would be a huge mistake. We dont want everything to be fair and every deck played on curve plays. I agree that some other cards on their core set could be nerfed though.
Suggesting swapping prep to counterfeit coin is stupid simply on the fact that Druid has the same card already. They wont give 2 class exact same card in core set.
According to statistics from hsreplay Evil Miscreant is the strongest card in all rogue decks after edwin(which is op and should be hall of famed in my opinion). So if edwin will stay untill next rotation or indefinetly (or wont get nerfed), I would remove 1-2 hp from Miscreant. That would probly go long way and remove rogue from the number 1 position. But hey, that wouldn't solve anything since then the nerfbois would go after hunter next.
Also don't use words like "design space" just to act smart and sound like you are some card design genius. In reality it only makes you look clueless especially if you don't make any reasearch before and fill your post with misinformation.
When I am offering the same terms that the Developers use in explanation for why they often nerf or HOF cards. It's not exactly "attempting to sound smart".
Cold Blood/Leeching Poison were both pointless nerfs trying to nerf a Neutral Legendary in Baku which ultimately failed. Neither card is or was a problem in any way beyond this Odd Rogue situtation last year and I didn't include them intentionally because they weren't actually well thought out and proper nerfs. Blade Flurry is another in this category, not necessary when it was done and still wouldn't be. I should have phrased my proposition appropriately and that is my mistake. The only Rogue card nerfed that was ever a legitimate long-term problem was Conceal.
They lose more money than they gain by allowing these issues to linger. So shows a 50% drop in revenue from from 2017 to last year. People were "Not" happy about those long term meta issues last year and showed such with their wallets. Also the claim that the winrate of Tempo Rogue isn't really that high is another BS justification. It's playrate is approaching 30-35% at Rank 5 to Legend. That is approaching Jade Idol levels of Druid from two years ago. So it has a high end quality win-rate AND is seeing a rediculous amount of play against the next "Class" not even architype but just the next class.
Also anyone playing Control Warrior right now is typically countering Tempo Rogue as it's one of the only "Green" Matchups in the entire game against Tempo Rogue since the other eight classes are all Red against it. So ya it's perfectly fine and balanced and we should leave it as it is for another few months. Sounds perfect
Suggesting swapping prep to counterfeit coin is stupid simply on the fact that Druid has the same card already. They wont give 2 class exact same card in core set.
Preparation and Edwin VanCleef should go to Hall of Fame and that is it. The other cards you mentioned are going to be fine after these go away. As they say "Don't punish the son for the sins of the father." Rogue has had too many combo payoffs and too many combo activators for too long, remove the best of each and the power level falls in line.
Preparation is the main issue with Rogue. it limits design space so hard and puts the class in a tiny little box of what it is good at.
imo, they should't HOF Prep, because there are wild players too.
they should give Prep the good ol' Warsong Commander nerf and make it totally unplayable. would be good for the game.
I genuinely don't understand this comment. You do realise that Preparation has always been used in Wild? HoF'ing it makes zero difference to those that play Wild because its always been there.
In fact, any comment like this really rubs my Jimmy's.
HoF'ing a card does not mean that it becomes Wilds Problem. All cards have been in Wild. Forever.
Standard is the New Format. Let's not forget this.
When I am offering the same terms that the Developers use in explanation for why they often nerf or HOF cards. It's not exactly "attempting to sound smart".
Cold Blood/Leeching Poison were both pointless nerfs trying to nerf a Neutral Legendary in Baku which ultimately failed. Neither card is or was a problem in any way beyond this Odd Rogue situtation last year and I didn't include them intentionally because they weren't actually well thought out and proper nerfs. Blade Flurry is another in this category, not necessary when it was done and still wouldn't be. I should have phrased my proposition appropriately and that is my mistake. The only Rogue card nerfed that was ever a legitimate long-term problem was Conceal.
They lose more money than they gain by allowing these issues to linger. So shows a 50% drop in revenue from from 2017 to last year. People were "Not" happy about those long term meta issues last year and showed such with their wallets. Also the claim that the winrate of Tempo Rogue isn't really that high is another BS justification. It's playrate is approaching 30-35% at Rank 5 to Legend. That is approaching Jade Idol levels of Druid from two years ago. So it has a high end quality win-rate AND is seeing a rediculous amount of play against the next "Class" not even architype but just the next class.
Also anyone playing Control Warrior right now is typically countering Tempo Rogue as it's one of the only "Green" Matchups in the entire game against Tempo Rogue since the other eight classes are all Red against it. So ya it's perfectly fine and balanced and we should leave it as it is for another few months. Sounds perfect
Cold blood as 1 mana would absolutely crazy in current tempo rogue lists. At 2 mana its good enough that some people put it to their lists. Imagine at half the mana cost. Leeching poison nerf was directed to kingsbane rogue. And it was moved from 2 mana to 1 mana so what does that actually have to do with odd rogue?
Just a tip if you THINK a nerf was bad(cold blood, leeching poison as you said). It doesnt actually mean it was bad. If you had designed this current tempo rogue list would you really like them to have acces to cold blood as 1 mana spell? It proved to be a really good nerf. People are already whining about the amount of burst rogue does. And as they said the kingsbane led to really boring lategames where you just smack with kingsbane to opponents face every turn with empty deck. Without having to really think about anything nor care about fatigue. I think that was also a good nerf.
Blade Flurry was absolutely a good nerf (maybe a bit too harsh). That card was the best AOE card in the game pre nerf. In a class that shouldnt have strong AOEs. It would be beyond broken in kingsbane or current tempo lists. Please man, don't just try to swipe everything that doesnt line up with ur argument to the side.
What actually are you talking about "lingering issue". Odd rogue didnt play preparation and was a boring deck that didnt feel like a Rogue deck. It didnt have prep, it didnt have cycle. It was just a strong curve aggro deck mostly consisting of neutral minions. The problem with odd and even decks were that they were really boring lists mostly consisting strong minions AKA on curve plays. Thats not what current Rogue list is.
Rogue has higher play rate that its winrate would warrant. That means that the deck is overplayed and the simplest reason (atleast a factor, if not the whole reason) would be that people like to play the deck. Is the popularity of the deck a reason to nerf a deck??? NO. Since you talked about losing money, wouldn't this be a loss of money for Blizzard? Who would nerf a deck because people find it fun to play?
I attached legend winrates for decks in last week to justify my last point.
You are making some really weird conclusions from information that is not accurate at all. Maybe you should research the things you are talking about before you make a forum thread.
For me, the most broken and out of control card is myra's: it's simply wrong that you can full your hand with cards after you push so many demages so esily. It reminds me of divine favour because it has the same wrong and annoying concept. I don't know how many games i lost due to this frustrating card.
Dread Corsair - This one is fairly simple honestly and I don't understand why the mana reduction for it is a thing to begin with (Fix - Reduce to costing 3 mana, remove mana reduction ability)
Why is everyone complaining about preparation? Please let's not repeat what we did with druid when wild growth and nourish got nerfed instead of UI and/or plague..
if you nerf/HoF cards like prep and shadowstep the whole rogue identity loses its core just to address a problem caused by other cards, mainly raiding party and evil miscreant that basically refill your hand with zero effort
Blizzard has to simulatenously HOF/nerf prep, shadowstep and other cards and bring in substitutions at the same time or else rogue is unplayable untill next expansion
Rank 20 people complaining. Just learn how 2play, crying babies
Judging by your avatar, are you a main Tempo rogue sheep, a sorry, player? No offence , but only people playing Rogue because they are netdeckers like you, can't see the problem of a class being played in such levels, like Midrange Hunter was played in Rastakhan's Rumble meta.
I, for once, feel ashamed and guilty, when I play Tess rogue which I really love, my favorite deck , even it's full meme, because when someone queues against me, he must be thinking, oh, look another netdecker, meta sheep, playing tempo/battlecry rogue. I can't also enjoy Tess rogue because of all of you netdeckers :)
man i playing mostly rogue, yeah. and there is always bunch of crying babies. Rogue was always amazing to play even with 2 (two!) nerfs of The Caverns Below. there always be haters, and now they are crying to nerf PreparationEdwin VanCleef or move Leeroy Jenkins to hall of fame. there always be Tier s and tons of you, who cant tech your deck with counter cards, lets cry together!
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Its funny how this post starts with the problem being so complicated and "deep". When actually tempo rogue's winrate is only so much better than the 2nd best deck that nerfing a single important card with 1 stat point could put it behind few decks. We are not talking about blatantly op deck. We are just talking about a deck that has the highest winrate but still reasonable.
Then continuing with cards like shadowstep(which is the worst card in tempo rogue list and best lists doest even run the card if excluding nomi lists that target warrior matchup and are worse in every other matchup).
Then talking about Rogue not getting hall of famed or nerfed enough. Just telling there are 7 class cards in hall of fame (if we exclude the odd and even cards which rotated with genn and baku). Rogue has 1 card in hall of fame which is more than the average.
Rogue is also one of the most nerfed classes in HS history.
Also you say rogue gets a lot good cards from expansions. I agree rogue got a lot of good cards last expansion, which is really strange since Rogue has most of the time received really weak sets. Just scroll through all the expansion cards and calculate how many of those has been played in Rogue's best deck at that time. You can almost count them with two hands. That has to do with Rogue's basic set being one of the strongest. And being strong doesnt mean it should be nerfed. The reason why rogue is so liked and played is that Blizzard did really good job designing their basic set. Cards like preparation are the soul of the class and removing it from the game would be a huge mistake. We dont want everything to be fair and every deck played on curve plays. I agree that some other cards on their core set could be nerfed though.
Suggesting swapping prep to counterfeit coin is stupid simply on the fact that Druid has the same card already. They wont give 2 class exact same card in core set.
According to statistics from hsreplay Evil Miscreant is the strongest card in all rogue decks after edwin(which is op and should be hall of famed in my opinion). So if edwin will stay untill next rotation or indefinetly (or wont get nerfed), I would remove 1-2 hp from Miscreant. That would probly go long way and remove rogue from the number 1 position. But hey, that wouldn't solve anything since then the nerfbois would go after hunter next.
Also don't use words like "design space" just to act smart and sound like you are some card design genius. In reality it only makes you look clueless especially if you don't make any reasearch before and fill your post with misinformation.
When I am offering the same terms that the Developers use in explanation for why they often nerf or HOF cards. It's not exactly "attempting to sound smart".
Cold Blood/Leeching Poison were both pointless nerfs trying to nerf a Neutral Legendary in Baku which ultimately failed. Neither card is or was a problem in any way beyond this Odd Rogue situtation last year and I didn't include them intentionally because they weren't actually well thought out and proper nerfs. Blade Flurry is another in this category, not necessary when it was done and still wouldn't be. I should have phrased my proposition appropriately and that is my mistake. The only Rogue card nerfed that was ever a legitimate long-term problem was Conceal.
They lose more money than they gain by allowing these issues to linger. So shows a 50% drop in revenue from from 2017 to last year. People were "Not" happy about those long term meta issues last year and showed such with their wallets. Also the claim that the winrate of Tempo Rogue isn't really that high is another BS justification. It's playrate is approaching 30-35% at Rank 5 to Legend. That is approaching Jade Idol levels of Druid from two years ago. So it has a high end quality win-rate AND is seeing a rediculous amount of play against the next "Class" not even architype but just the next class.
Also anyone playing Control Warrior right now is typically countering Tempo Rogue as it's one of the only "Green" Matchups in the entire game against Tempo Rogue since the other eight classes are all Red against it. So ya it's perfectly fine and balanced and we should leave it as it is for another few months. Sounds perfect
Knock Waggle Pick up to 5 mana. Fucks up the curve plays completely.
I think this alone would lower the rogue win rate significantly without destroying the deck.
terrible post
Arcane Shot
Holy Smite
Yeah, it can never, ever happen. Ever.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Preparation and Edwin VanCleef should go to Hall of Fame and that is it. The other cards you mentioned are going to be fine after these go away. As they say "Don't punish the son for the sins of the father." Rogue has had too many combo payoffs and too many combo activators for too long, remove the best of each and the power level falls in line.
I'm so glad Blizzard pays no attention to these threads.
I genuinely don't understand this comment. You do realise that Preparation has always been used in Wild? HoF'ing it makes zero difference to those that play Wild because its always been there.
In fact, any comment like this really rubs my Jimmy's.
HoF'ing a card does not mean that it becomes Wilds Problem. All cards have been in Wild. Forever.
Standard is the New Format. Let's not forget this.
4/3/19 RIP Keith Flint. 😔
Cold blood as 1 mana would absolutely crazy in current tempo rogue lists. At 2 mana its good enough that some people put it to their lists. Imagine at half the mana cost. Leeching poison nerf was directed to kingsbane rogue. And it was moved from 2 mana to 1 mana so what does that actually have to do with odd rogue?
Just a tip if you THINK a nerf was bad(cold blood, leeching poison as you said). It doesnt actually mean it was bad. If you had designed this current tempo rogue list would you really like them to have acces to cold blood as 1 mana spell? It proved to be a really good nerf. People are already whining about the amount of burst rogue does. And as they said the kingsbane led to really boring lategames where you just smack with kingsbane to opponents face every turn with empty deck. Without having to really think about anything nor care about fatigue. I think that was also a good nerf.
Blade Flurry was absolutely a good nerf (maybe a bit too harsh). That card was the best AOE card in the game pre nerf. In a class that shouldnt have strong AOEs. It would be beyond broken in kingsbane or current tempo lists. Please man, don't just try to swipe everything that doesnt line up with ur argument to the side.
What actually are you talking about "lingering issue". Odd rogue didnt play preparation and was a boring deck that didnt feel like a Rogue deck. It didnt have prep, it didnt have cycle. It was just a strong curve aggro deck mostly consisting of neutral minions. The problem with odd and even decks were that they were really boring lists mostly consisting strong minions AKA on curve plays. Thats not what current Rogue list is.
Rogue has higher play rate that its winrate would warrant. That means that the deck is overplayed and the simplest reason (atleast a factor, if not the whole reason) would be that people like to play the deck. Is the popularity of the deck a reason to nerf a deck??? NO. Since you talked about losing money, wouldn't this be a loss of money for Blizzard? Who would nerf a deck because people find it fun to play?
I attached legend winrates for decks in last week to justify my last point.
You are making some really weird conclusions from information that is not accurate at all. Maybe you should research the things you are talking about before you make a forum thread.
For me, the most broken and out of control card is myra's: it's simply wrong that you can full your hand with cards after you push so many demages so esily. It reminds me of divine favour because it has the same wrong and annoying concept. I don't know how many games i lost due to this frustrating card.
Dread Corsair doesn't need to be nerfed.
Why is everyone complaining about preparation? Please let's not repeat what we did with druid when wild growth and nourish got nerfed instead of UI and/or plague..
if you nerf/HoF cards like prep and shadowstep the whole rogue identity loses its core just to address a problem caused by other cards, mainly raiding party and evil miscreant that basically refill your hand with zero effort
Thank god Blizz sometimes doesnt listen to fanbase.
You aren't tired of turn 4 waggle pick + 2 dread corsairs after a raiding party yet?
My only problem with counterfeit becoming standard is that innervate is the same card kinda lame
Blizzard has to simulatenously HOF/nerf prep, shadowstep and other cards and bring in substitutions at the same time or else rogue is unplayable untill next expansion
Rank 20 people complaining. Just learn how 2play, crying babies
I think that the problem in raiding party--> pick+2 corsair is not the dread corsair my dude
Judging by your avatar, are you a main Tempo rogue sheep, a sorry, player? No offence , but only people playing Rogue because they are netdeckers like you, can't see the problem of a class being played in such levels, like Midrange Hunter was played in Rastakhan's Rumble meta.
I, for once, feel ashamed and guilty, when I play Tess rogue which I really love, my favorite deck , even it's full meme, because when someone queues against me, he must be thinking, oh, look another netdecker, meta sheep, playing tempo/battlecry rogue. I can't also enjoy Tess rogue because of all of you netdeckers :)
man i playing mostly rogue, yeah. and there is always bunch of crying babies. Rogue was always amazing to play even with 2 (two!) nerfs of The Caverns Below. there always be haters, and now they are crying to nerf Preparation Edwin VanCleef or move Leeroy Jenkins to hall of fame. there always be Tier s and tons of you, who cant tech your deck with counter cards, lets cry together!