Hearthpwn

Just of note on those whom think "rank 20 babies is a good insult and valid".  I've been Legend many times and the months I don't reach it are due to lack of playing time rather than ability.  But thank you for the valued input.

The cards offered obviously are all not going to get the hammer.  But there's enough cards that have been "Long Term Problems" that the class in and of itself needs to be looked at.  Rogue fans need to realize that the health of the game is far more important than the power level/enjoyment of one class.  The game suffered through it's worst year ever last year due to Genn and Baku.  It cannot sustain another bad year of that ilk and Tempo Rogue threatens that.

The furthest back I can research is One night in Karazhan.  Rogue wasn't much of an impact that year but was in the mid-range of the classes.  As soon as Un'Goro released Rogue catapaulted to 20% played as a class.  Crystal Rogue and Tempo Rogue were the decks

Soon after Knights of the Frozen Throne, Tempo Rogue was the top deck and Rogue was the top played class for much of the period of this expansion.  Despite the nerfs to Crystal that happened and would happen again

After Kobolds and Catacombs released, Tempo Rogue took a backseat for a while.  This was fairly consistent for this entire expansion

After Witchwood launched Odd Rogue came into existance which replaced Tempo Rogue for much of 2018.  I equate them to generally one and the same type of deck because they function similarly to playing things on curve and smorcing face down.  Rogue would remain a top played class through Witchwood.

Rogue maintained a top 3 position in classes played through the summer and throughout Boomsday.  Not overwhelming but still in the top trio of classes in the game.

Rogue finally fell back after Rastakhan's rumble to the 2nd trio of classes played (4th through 6th) because of the overwhelming popularity of Hunter.

Which brings us into Rise of Shadows where Rogue is the unquestioned top class.  Again it has consistently been amongst the top classes in the entire game and often sat at the throne of the game.  Right now is approaching Jade Idol Druid levels of playrate and the winrate isn't even with the playrate but what would be?  56% winrate or higher?  It's still a tier 1 deck imo even with everyone targetting it actively.

There are changes that "Have" to be made and it needs to be done sooner than later.

When I am offering the same terms that the Developers use in explanation for why they often nerf or HOF cards.  It's not exactly "attempting to sound smart". 

Cold Blood/Leeching Poison were both pointless nerfs trying to nerf a Neutral Legendary in Baku which ultimately failed.  Neither card is or was a problem in any way beyond this Odd Rogue situtation last year and I didn't include them intentionally because they weren't actually well thought out and proper nerfs.  Blade Flurry is another in this category, not necessary when it was done and still wouldn't be.  I should have phrased my proposition appropriately and that is my mistake.  The only Rogue card nerfed that was ever a legitimate long-term problem was Conceal.

They lose more money than they gain by allowing these issues to linger.  So shows a 50% drop in revenue from from 2017 to last year.  People were "Not" happy about those long term meta issues last year and showed such with their wallets.  Also the claim that the winrate of Tempo Rogue isn't really that high is another BS justification.  It's playrate is approaching 30-35% at Rank 5 to Legend.  That is approaching Jade Idol levels of Druid from two years ago.  So it has a high end quality win-rate AND is seeing a rediculous amount of play against the next "Class" not even architype but just the next class.

Also anyone playing Control Warrior right now is typically countering Tempo Rogue as it's one of the only "Green" Matchups in the entire game against Tempo Rogue since the other eight classes are all Red against it.  So ya it's perfectly fine and balanced and we should leave it as it is for another few months.  Sounds perfect

Crybaby comments while adorable are also not productive and do not defend or attack any point.  Just adds nothing.

I understand where people see others asking for nerfs all the time and it's too often used but my point about Rogue never being targetted is fairly accurate.  As mentioned that Conceal was the only card to be nerfed or HOF'd from the Rogue class "Ever" I believe.  Most of the cards mentioned are "enhanced" because of the existance of Preperation.  It is the biggest offender of all the cards in the class and needs work the most.  It allows for broken turns where Rogue can play 5-6-7 cards on turns with less than 10 mana.  Anything with mana reduction has always been between a spectrum of powerful to utterly broken.

Emperor Thaurissan would've been nerfed if he hadn't been part of the first standard rotation because he allowed for broken combos.

Innervate - (Not mana reduction but it used to give you mana for 0 mana cost.  Now it's halved and still has seen some scattered play)

Wild Growth - (Mana Ramp and eventually nerfed because of how much play it saw no matter what)

Nourish - (See Above and repeat)

Most cards with a mana reduction or mana ramp are going to be broken and Rogue does it across too many cards, "By" too much.  If Shadowstep and Waggle Pick was 1 mana reduction it would be a significant difference though I still think Waggle needs to be weaker damage wise.

I didn't even approach Sap which I think fits the Wild Growth/Nourish comparison more than anything since it's been in every Rogue deck in the history of Hearthstone, BUT it's not the issue at the moment.  There are plenty of ways for a "Tempo Rogue" to exist where the design space isn't so completely limited and still be cheap.  It involves cards like Preperation taking a significant nerf or HOF though because they allow "Too" much.  Just see Myra's with Prep for a 2 mana draw 9 cards play to know how silly the card can be.

So the problem for Rogue is deeper than just "Waggle Pick" or 3 Mana draw 2 pirates and a weapon.  The problem is much deeper and even beyond the basic and classic set but we can start there.

Preperation - How this card is still in the form it is, shocks me deeply.  0 Mana and get as much as a 3 mana discount on a spell is a broken effect.  0 Mana spells have to be incredibly careful as they can go from balanced to broken in a hurry and this one hasn't been balanced in a long time.  If Innervate, Wild Growth, Nourish AND Naturalize were all nerfed or hall of famed.  How is there "Any" legitimate explanation as to why this card has not been in the same conversation.  Especially since a "Tempo Rogue/Miracle Rogue" pops up in almost every meta in some fashion and is always decent due to the broken cards in the classic/basic set (Fix - 1 Mana and 2 Mana discount: This would at least allow the card to remain playable while actually being balanced somewhat though still could be broken at the nerfed state too!)

Raiding Party - 3 Mana Combo card where you get to draw 2 Pirates and a weapon.  Now there is another card involved here that is a problem but it's more than what it seems.  With the sheer glut of 0 mana cards that Rogues play.  This is very often a 3 Mana play on turn 3 or 4 and sometimes is a 0 Mana Tutor 3 cards.  (Fix - 1 Pirate and Combo to 1 Weapon: Drawing 3 cards for 3 mana is "Never" balanced.  Nourish cost 5 and it got nerfed)

Waggle Pick - 4 mana 4/2 weapon with Shadowstep effect on a random minion.  It's not incredibly hard to target what minion you want to bounce and with Deadly Poisons as well as Captain Greenskin.  This card has gotten out of control and I'm not sure again why the developers decided that a high attack weapon in a deck which often plays on Tempo was a good idea.  It moved Tempo Rogue from Tempo to more of the old Pirate Warrior/Face Warrior gameplan of punch your opponent in the face alot with the weapon.  "Many" players simply ignore your board completely and throw random spells at face just to pump out damage to try and "Get there" (Fix - 4 mana 3/2 weapon with a discount of 1 on the bounced card not 2)

Shadowstep - Another argument here as this again allows for broken combinations and has been a criminal in Rogue for a long time of being an unbalanced card.  It's another of these basic/classic set cards that should've been considered for nerf a long time ago as it again allows for broken things in the class and game over and over.  It limits design space because of how it allows OTK potential. (Fix - Reduce mana reduction from 2 to 1)

Dread Corsair - This one is fairly simple honestly and I don't understand why the mana reduction for it is a thing to begin with (Fix - Reduce to costing 3 mana, remove mana reduction ability)

Developers - This is where the conversation/discussion will get me some flak but I feel this is warranted at this point.  I've felt for a long time that Rogue for whatever reason is the "Golden Boy" class in Hearthstone because over "Years" the Developers have not Hall of Famed or nerfed cards like Prep, Shadowstep, Sap, Backstab and more.  The only nerf the class has ever gotten is "Conceal" which in the grand scheme of things is pretty weak sauce comparing to other nerfs/Hall of Fames.  There's another thread for another time pointing out all the classes that have gotten hozed the worst through the HOF process but I promise you that Rogue is at the bottom of that list, not the top.

There needs to be fairness across all the classes in the basic/standard set and favoring one class over the other eight is something that allows an expansion of good to broken cards to be printed.  In the last two expansions Rogue received: Vendetta (Broken but on a lesser level), Waggle Pick (Broken), Raiding Party (Broken hugely), EVIL Miscreant (Broken but not as bad as above yet), Heistbaron Togwaggle (Broken but doesnt make the cut for being broken enough).  As well as a variety of "Really good" but not busted cards.

Significant players and streamers are leaving Hearthstone in large numbers for other games due to a meta which has been unable to be balanced for well over a year now by this team.  Between the horrific 2018 meta of Odd/Even and OTK and now Tempo Rogue all day every day.  (I played 100 games for instead with Control Warrior and wound up with a 44% playrate against Rogue.)  There needs to be some significant introspection and legitimate balance discussion on this team because they are quickly allowing the game to fall into a place where it might not recover from.  I don't like calling out developers because they of course work very hard and try their best.  At the end of the day though i'm not paid to do the job, they are.  If they are not doing the job to a point where people are leaving your game in droves.  (As shown by Dean Ayala late last year/early this year asking players what would it take for them to come back) is a horrible sign and showcases the problems.

(Fix - Either take a real look at the actual problem cards in your game and address them because there's even more than just these.  These are just in ONE CLASS which has been Preserved to this point by the team and not targetted even though it should've been several times over by now.  If not that, bring in a team that can take a neutral look at things and actually address the problems that "Do" exist.  Because right now Hearthstone is trending down, not up.  Another year like 2018 and it will not just be a valley in the game's life but will begin to be it's future path.

The point was more to ask the question and try to have a discussion about it and see where people's thoughts lay.  Do I actually think they are cheating?  "No".  But is it a gray area in some senses, yea I think it is.  It came up because I played Purple when he wasn't streaming yesterday and then thought to myself.  How would "I" feel if I was playing against a team rather than just the individual I am expected.

Also something not mentioned by those indicating that they can be stream sniped.  Stream sniping is something that gets people banned in channels and I believe Twitch has rules on the books to remove their accounts too if it can be proven.  So Stream sniping isn't on the up and up either as a strategy.  Just food for thought rather than trying to be an out and out arse.

I feel it's just something that I've noticed that didn't feel...Kosher.  If that makes any sense.  It's incredibly hard to enforce and Blizz never enforces anyway I agree.  Just wanted to see because I know that when I queue up I am queuing up to play someone 1 v 1.  3 v 1 feels like a marginally stacked deck.  Where they are able to work out the most optimal play because three sets of eyes or four are better than one.

I don't disagree but it's why I pose the question.  The player actually playing the game misses something or misses the most optimal play and someone in his call corrects him.  How is that fair to the people that are playing against them?  This is less accusatory and more a discussion that merits being had.

Is what Zalae, Purple and others do considered cheating or not?  They sit on a call together and while on live ladder talk over how to play the opponent that one guy is playing.  So it's principly a "Team" versus one.  Just asking as it seems really poor form and questionable at best to be legit.

This list is just better than Kripp's.  I'm sure it's not popular to say but it's a pre-xpac list and it underestimates several cards including Armorhound (I know that's not his official name).  My list isn't done yet either BUT it's got almost 70 games on it now with a 62% winrate in ranks 5 through 2.  That tends to be a pretty decent testing ground.

Pinata's randomness is actually not a bad thing.  Quality of Legendaries is good.  Twice I got Hex Lord Malacrass in a mirror and LOL'd my way to a win.  It also works well with Sweeping Strikes.  The deck runs alot of spells and minimal minions so until 10 when Assembly is active it's good.

I am also a huge fanboy of the card even though I know it's power level isn't great.  You could likely cut it for something better.  Consider it like the "Elise" slot for the deck.  Elysiana is a MUST for control and mirror matchups.  I've lost a couple of games purely due to Elysiana'ing too early and they did it after me.  It's commonly being adopted.  I also ran this to Rank 2 this morning with another 5 straight W's.

It's 39-24 so far.  62% winrate over almost 65 games tells me that it's super powerful even if a couple cards like Pinata could be optimized slots.  Boomship is "Not" a good fit for the deck.  Most of what you want to play wants to be played for the battlecry.

Scraphound's are terrific in allowing this deck to deal with aggro matchups, same for the one Eternium but the Scraphound's armor-gain scales up with Magnetic minions and Sweeping Strike as well as Zillax.  Dyn-o-Matic is dead for alot of matchups right now as either it's a mirror so it doesn't work and is just an under-stated 5 drop.

Delivery Drone and Omega Assembly will get you the extra bombs needed to finish a game off.  Seaforium Bomber and Elekk as well as Greenskin are expensive bomb additives that slow the deck down.  Ignore these and refine a list even more from this.  This list isn't finished quite yet but it's already really good.

I've found that a list more refined down to a mid-range win with a Control (smash incase of emergency) has worked best for me.  I've run up against this list ALOT and my list was 13-6 against the mirror (this deck).  Elysiana is terrific in removing the Bombs from your deck and also potentially giving you enough juice to finish the opponent off.  Sometimes you hold her to the very end into fatigue if you have enough health.

Dyn-o-Matic is meh because it does nothing most of the time so it's out of my list.  Vicious Scraphound is actually rediculously good.  Zillax slapped onto it is a 10 heal (5 health, 5 armor) and only at 7 Mana.  Rush minions in the list isn't as good as a more mech focused list imo.  Seaforium and other bomb tech just clutters the decklists.

Also testing Chief Inspector to deal with Hunters instead of Elise.  Only good if Hunters are very prevelent in the meta like they currently are though.

Got Legend for 2nd straight month.  This month was done with Control Razakus Priest homebrew edition and finished it off at Rank 1 with Big Druid