Quote from KittyKatz1990 >>are you blind or just incredibly stupid? what are you talking about. lol, he has hydrologist which will generate another card, same with ivory knight, same with netherspite historian, same with curator (which will draw upto 3 cards), same with ysera which can generate more than 1 card and then if that's not enough there's also an elise in the deck, which will give an ungoru pack of another 5 cards to refill your hard.......now you can see why I opened my post with a valid question. :)
card generation does not equal card draw, and curator alone is very unreliable, especially with only one beast in the deck. Card generation usually produces additional value not cards that you ahve in oyur deck and might need to draw at some point.
if you go around calling people stupid you'd better know what you're talking about
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For those of you having trouble seeing why Barnes may be a good inclusion in the deck lets break down all the situations for you as this deck has 21 other minions in it.
Spell Power Synergy - 3 Minions
Barnes can pull Bloodmage Thalnos or Azure Drake. Those 3 cards give you the opportunity for synergy with 5 other weapon/spell cards in your deck.
Totem Synergy - 7 minions
Barnes can pull Flametongue Totem, Totem Golem, Mana Tide Totem. Those 5 cards can reduce the cost of Thing from Below acting as a third Tuskarr Totemic in your deck. Not to mention that a Flametongue draw gives you the chance for minion buffs and Mana Tide gives you card draw with the addition of no longer being "free kills" in the form of a 1/1 minion. Thunder Bluff Valiant summon gives you the opportunity to buff any totems already in play (assuming you have the mana to hero power).
Card Draw - 3 minions
Barnes can pull Mana Tide Totem or Bloodmage Thalnos giving you the opportunity for some free card draw.
Neutral Summon/Exact Copy - 7 minions
Barnes can pull Argent Squire or Bloodmage Thalnos essentially for free. While not the best summon from Barnes - Thing From Below and Tunnel Trogg do have the potential to create value outside of the remaining minions that only summon as 1/1s.
Underwhelming Summons - 5 minions
Where Barnes does whiff a bit is when it pulls Fire Elemental, Flamewreathed Faceless and Tuskarr Totemic. None of these minions offer any synergy with the deck if summoned.
In total (and not duplicating any minion across categories) 16 of the 21 minions (76%) provide at lease neutral/positive value from the summon while the remaining 5 minions (24%) offer no additional value outside of being a 1/1. And let us not forget that all of these minions, if they remain alive, can be buffed by Flametongue Totem which can help create value trades. Barnes may not exactly be the strongest of minions to play as many of the summons are situational, but as you can see there are plenty of opportunities for value by including him in your deck.
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Think of Bolf Ramshield more like armor than a taunt minion. Bolf effectively provides you with 9 (or more armor if overkilled) and for 6-mana, which is not a great card on its own and is in fact as you described 'horrible.' But if played as an RNG result of Moonglade Portal it becomes 6-mana negate 15 (or more) damage from opponent. Not exactly my definition of a terrible result.
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http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/class-discussion/shaman/54146-shaman-spells-overload
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While my math isn't exact, please don't think I randomly assigned values. Blizzard themselves have assigned the mana values to the imps and hounds that I quoted. If we use your values Muster for Battle should only cost 1-mana since Silverhand Recruits have the same stat value of a Wisp A hound would more accurately compare to Stonetusk Boar as well. Please be realistic when trying to make a point instead of choosing something on the extreme end(s) of the spectrum.
And just because a card isn't used doesn't mean it's cost is wrong. If anything you are only helping prove my point in that today's meta, a majority of cards are played because they offer greater board value than cost to play.
You really shouldn't have issues with math to support an argument since it's better than just crying "OP" without any support.
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I actually agree with the OP that it is a card that is "abused" more so than "used" and like the suggestion of changing summon to play. I do not have an issue with aggro decks as they are healthy for the meta on a conceptual level. I have an issue with how effective/efficient/fast they are becoming and how little skill is actually required to pilot these decks. Blizzard often states they want the game to be more about board control through minion trades, but cards like Knife Juggler contradict that statement as they enable aggro decks to keep going face or increase face damage. The very first iteration of Zoo was what Blizzard had in mind for aggro decks - flood and control the board early, make efficient trades, and then push face damage when the time is right. Today's aggro have come a long way since then and from turn-1 are pure face decks only trading when absolutely necessary or silence isn't in hand.
Do not be mistaken by eliasfh in the statement of "being used as an anti-agro card" as the RNG effect cannot be guaranteed to hit the intended target. You will never see a control deck actually include it as a method of control since randomness does not equal control. The only decks that use it as "anti-aggro" are of course aggro decks because free damage is free damage. If it hits minions and happens to kill one or more, great. If it hits face, great. Either outcome is acceptable a majority of the time. The only deck that isn't considered "aggro" that uses it is Midrange Paladin and that is only because they can abuse the effect with one card and their Hero Power.
And that brings me to my next point - let us do some math as to why the card is a bit overpowered in its current state when combined with other cards. I will be breaking down the mana cost of the combo with the mana effect on the board.
Paladin
Knife Juggler + Muster for Battle = 5 mana played. However, they are left with a 1-mana weapon, three 1-mana creatures, one 2-mana creature, and have done three RNG damage (Arcane Missles). 1+3+2+1=7. For 5-mana that have created a board effect worth 7-mana.
Warlock
Knife Juggler + Imp-losion = 6 mana played (lets go through each RNG roll)
Roll-2: one 2-mana creature, two 1-mana creatures, 2 minion damage (Arcane Blast), two RNG damage. 2+2+1+1=6.
Roll-3: one 2-mana creature, three 1-mana creatures, 3 minion damage (Wrath), three RNG damage. 2+3+2+1=8.
Roll-4: one 2-mana creature, four 1-mana creatures, 4 minion damage (Shadow Bolt), four RNG damage. 2+4+3+1=10.
As you can see only on the below average roll are the mana cost and board effect equal. An average roll sees a 2-mana advantage and the above average roll sees a crazy 4-mana advantage. I think all Warlock players can agree (even without KJ combo) that rolling below average is unfortunate since you are only achieving normal mana value.
Hunter
The same math applies for Hunter as it does for Warlock except their combo only costs 5-mana with Unleash the Hounds. The math does change if Hunter needs to trade Hounds away, but as we all know...face is the place!!!
Druid
The newest addition in the aggro game is actually the only aggro deck that see a mana effect disadvantage unless all damage goes to face since not all minions generated stay on the board.
Knife Juggler + Force of Nature = 8 mana played
Base value: 2-mana creature, 6 face damage (Fireball), three RNG damage. 2+4+1=7.
All face value: 2-mana creature, 9 face damage (Pyroblast like effect). 2+10=12.
I do understand that these are combo scenarios and require the combo to be in hand, but as OP stated the effect can still be abused to a lesser extent due to Deathrattle minions. This keeps the combo card from being completely dead since it still enables aggro by dishing out free damage.
By changing the text from summon to play, it limits the amount of free damage and mana advantage, while still issues free damage when a minion is played.
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Edit: Updated to include post-TGT discussion/analysis
Hello everyone. With the release of the new spell for Shaman - Ancestral Knowledge, I wanted to discuss how pretty much every Shaman spell that contains overload is over costed on an overload level. I get Blizzard doesn't want every class to be nearly identical, but giving other classes clearly better cards by comparison can make a class virtually unplayable which we have see in Shaman almost going back to before the release of GvG. Overload should only cost the amount of tempo you are gaining and should not put you at a larger tempo disadvantage the following turn.
If memory serves, I believe I read that Blizzard values each overloaded crystal to be worth 1/2 an actual mana crystal, but the actual tempo loss of not being able to use overloaded mana crystals your next just makes that untrue. And I also understand that Blizzard isn't in the business of buffing cards, but still feel that some sort of change might be necessary for the class to become playable from a truly competitive standpoint. Think of it more as correcting a mistake.
The only card in my opinion that is costed correctly is Lightning Bolt. Effectively, for 2 mana deal 3 damage. Fits the mold just like Darkbomb, Frostbolt, Wrath.
Now let us get into the cards that are over costed by at least 1 overload crystal and compare them to other class cards.
Lava Burst - This card can be compared closest to Fireball for Mage. You could almost argue that there should be no overload on this card at all. For one less mana you are inflicting one less damage, but I'd be completely on board with this card having one overload crystal attached to it since it costs one less mana to play for nearly the same amount of damage.
Lightning Storm - Unfortunately this card is bad on a couple of fronts when compared and I do not have a clear solution. The RNG factor does not justify the overload at all and because the damage is not guaranteed you can only truly count on 2-damage when playing it. Compare this to Consecration you can see that Lightning Storm is not the best AoE card. Consecration does the base damage of Lightning Storm while also dealing 2-damange to the face. In my opinion there are two options to make this card better. A) Remove overload and keep the RNG damage the same. B) Remove 1 overload, but have it hit all enemies and not just minions.
Crackle - This card needs a change, but only because of the RNG factor. I would again just make it a choice card. Deal 3 damage no overload or 4 - 6 with one overload. I get rolling three damage only happens 25% of the time, but to incur the tempo loss of needing to use another card or minion to clear that one extra damage as well as overload on the next turn is a bit obnoxious. By making it a choice card it keeps it on par with other 2 mana deal 3 damage cards and then compares to Imp-losion or Flamecannon in terms of RNG value/costing.
Forked Lightning - This is just a really bad Cleave and Cleave is hardly played which makes Forked Lightning never played except in arena possibly. Remove one overload cost and maybe it finds some occasional use.
Feral Spirit - This one is difficult to truly judge. I still think it has one more overload than it should but I understand that this card may not need a change. My reasoning behind reducing overload by one is as follows. Each Spirit Wolf has a base cost of 2 on its own totaling 4-mana. Since you're only gaining 1-mana advantage the overload should only be 1.
Ancestral Knowledge - Talk about a tempo killer. Yes, Shaman needs card draw, but they shouldn't get it at the cost of severely limiting their following turn. Looking at Arcane Intellect and the decks its most commonly used in (Freeze and Flamewaker) the tempo loss is negligible or has synergies with other cards (Mana Wyrm/Flamewaker) where as this card for Shaman is just pure cycle. I feel like this card is intended more for the mid-to-late game, but are you really not going to play this on turn two/three if the board is empty? Again, I would remove one overload so the following turn isn't completely ruined.
Elemental Destruction - I don't even know where to begin with this card. It can be compared to so many, but I would argue that all the comparisons are better. Because the only damage guaranteed is 4, the immediate comparison I would make it Flamestrike, except that it also deals 4 damage to your board. So why does it cost 8 (when including overload)? Speaking of cards that do damage to the entire board I then began to compare this to Hellfire. Hellfire does one damage (guaranteed) less to the entire board, but costs just three with no overload. Not sure how that makes sense. And then I thought of Twisting Nether since both cards have an effective cost of 8-mana while affecting both sides of the board. However, Twisting destroys the whole board, while Elemental Destruction only damages it. That may work to your advantage some of the time, but if you fail to clear your opponents board and have to face 5-overload your next turn you may as well concede. And that brings me to my final point. This card needs to be combined with another card to see truly efficient use - Lava Shock. Without this card, rarely will you survive the game if used on its own. If you've falling so far behind that you need to use this on turns 3, 4 or 5 (without Lava Shock) just to try to stabilize it often won't help. Chances are you were dead already if it got to this point, but maybe this is the only play to give you a chance. Unfortunately you are giving your opponent two turns of initiative due to the overload and may end up right back where you started.
And lastly I would like to talk about overload synergies... They are practically non-existent!
Unbound Elemental - This card is just way to slow ever since Naxxramas and even before then wasn't that great of a card. Often times this card never sees value since it is dealt with fairly easily before you can start buffing it or it is silenced making it an undervalued vanilla 3 drop (Spider Tank). This card can also be compared to Flamewaker except Flamewaker has synergy with all Mage spells and not just select spells. Flamewaker also generally see immediate value by dealing at least two random damage the turn it's played (assuming not played naked). I do not know how I would improve this card with out completely ripping off Flamewaker or Imp Gang Boss.
Lava Shock - Another card that tries to offer some overload synergy, but unfortunately falls short. First let us discuss the card itself. Deal two damage plus an effect. Does that should like any other card to you? Frostbolt. Except Frostbolt deals three damage plus has an effect that can be utilized any turn in freezing the target. If Shaman does not have any overload, but needs to deal damage this just becomes a an expensive Holy Smite or Arcane Shot. And in order for it to properly see overload removal value, you generally need to be 3+ charges of overload. Maybe this card will see some (continued) play with Ancestral Knowledge and/or in a Shaman burn decks, but the setup just seems to slow for this card to be playable. If I were to change it, make it deal three damage with the same effect and it at least functions as a plain two mana removal spell.
As you can see the synergy that currently exists with overload, carries no real benefit. Either more cards need to be introduced to manipulate/benefit from overload or some changes might be needed. Yes, the spells are generally efficient the turn they are played, but unfortunately they kill your tempo the following turn. And in today's fast paced/tempo based meta, one turn of efficiency just isn't enough to recoup the tempo lost going forward.
The Grand Tournament did bring a small amount of excitement back to Shaman, but once opponents realized how to deal with/defend properly against totems the class is still considered bottom tier and that largely has to do with how badly overload sets shaman back in this fast paced and tempo driven meta.
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There are a couple of ways to save Shaman, but not sure Blizzard would ever make such changes. And I am also not saying implement all of these changes at the same time or even a combination of these ideas necessarily. Please read each option as an individual topic.
First I'll start with Shaman spells. Every spell shaman has outside of Lightning Bolt needs to have their overload cost reduced by one. It seems the idea behind overload is that you can play a minion/spell x-turns early and are penalized that amount the following turn. They have gotten this formula correct (mostly) for minions, but for spells it seems that all are over-costed by one. I have written an article about this before explaining my opinion and comparing it to other cards. You can read this here: Shaman Spells & Overload.
Second - Hero Power & Hero Power Totems. Shaman is the only class that has a random outcome for their hero power. Yes, Warlock gets a random card from the deck (top). But because you built the deck it feels more controlled than the outcome of a random totem so maybe the ability to choose is slowly becoming more necessary. Shaman is also the only class that can have their hero power locked out . And I'm not saying you should be able to spawn more than 4 hero totems, but with the "Inspire" mechanic if you already have all four hero power totems, you cannot inspire without first trading a totem. This isn't a huge issue as it doesn't happen that often, but I think most shaman players have encountered this issue at least once. And the last topic in regards to hero power totems I would like to discuss is their relative weakness. They are too easily cleared/ignored (during first 6 turns) that they could use a buff to give them a more consistently useful feel to them. Searing Totem could be given charge. The other three 0-attack totems could use +1 health and the Healing Totem should be reverted back to the original design of healing all friendly characters. In my opinion this doesn't feel too overpowered since you can only have one of each on the board and forces the opponent to pay a little more attention to your hero power totems early on.
Third - Shaman lacks a proper early game. Shaman is forced to use Zombie Chow and Haunted Creeper or spells. While the spell usage isn't that bad of a backup option, in today's aggro/tempo heavy meta having minions on the board is generally more beneficial. On the topic of minions Zombie Chow is good to have on turn 1 or 2, but if you don't have it on the board by then it almost feels like a liability as you give your opponent 5 health upon its deal. Haunted Creeper is decent but only because shaman can buff its attack with Rockbiter Weapon or Flametongue Totem. Without those buffs the 1-attack is fairly weak for the card. I would like to see shaman get a card similar to Mana Wyrm except the +1 comes from an overload card as a 1 mana option. As 2 mana option I would like to see a class version of the Haunted Creeper. It'd be a 2/2 basic minion that spawns 2 Searing Totems. It wouldn't necessarily need attack buffs to make a trade against an opponents two mana minion.
Finally - Overload Synergy. It is relatively nonexistent and I'm not entirely sure that creating more synergy (outside of the suggestion above) would be useful as I think totem synergy seems to be a stronger archetype for the class, but if Blizzard is going to continue introducing new overload cards they will need to do something to create more synergy. Maybe totem tribe minions that interact with overload.
These are just a few of the ideas that I have to give the class a better feel. The meta is too fast/tempo based for a class that seems to be designed for fairly slow gameplay and has a gameplay mechanic that generally creates more of a tempo disadvantage on average.
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Easiest way to make Patron Warrior still playable while eliminating the OTK aspect is changing the text of Warsong Commander to read like Southsea Deckhand - "Friendly minions with 3 or less attack have charge." A full board of Patrons can still be generated and your Frothing Berserker can be used the following turn if you have a way of protecting it. It also doesn't immediately punish your opponent for playing minions before your combo turn.
There is an issue Mysterious Challenger and the reason is that it is a better version of Mad Scientist except it generally plays five mana worth of cards for free immediately versus a 2-3 mana deathrattle. There is no opportunity to respond to that. And while playing around the secrets is possible assuming you have the cards to do so and a board, it also thins out the deck significantly. Assuming MC is played on curve the Paladin will have drawn, and played a majority of 14-15 cards on turn 6 (50%) while the opponent will have only seen and maybe played 9-10 of their cards (33% - assuming no additional draw). That is a pretty big advantage and this generally puts them at an additional advantage when it comes to top decks and the use of Divine Favor. And that leads me to my next point.
Maybe the biggest problem with decks like Patron Warrior, Eboladin, and Mysterious Pally is card draw. Card draw is what takes these decks from the gimmick category to top-tier. Divine Favor and Battle Rage are cheap forms of card draw that make these decks consistently reach their win conditions. I don't know the best way to change this or if there even is one. Changing mana cost of these cards may be too drastic, but 1 additional mana cost could be an option. Another option could be to limit each card to 3 drawn cards. Neither of these cards will ever be changed, but that's all I could see being done to them if something were to happen.
And lastly it seems that Blizzard will keep introducing playable secrets for secret classes, but only have one neutral card to deal w/ secrets which isn't always that great to begin with. They could buff Kezan Mystic to include an option similar to Flare - "Take control of a random enemy secret or destroy them all." Otherwise they will need to introduce more cards that can help counter the introduction of more usable secrets if it seems that secret decks are getting out of control.