As more and more expansions and adventures are being released, gradually increasing the card pool even more, it makes it harder for newer players to get into the game and catch up to everybody else. Not only do they have to grind for days to get some decent budget neutrals, they'll need to grind gold/arena/spend $ for Naxx/BRM/ and then all the gold for TGT/GvG/Normal cards. The argument for arena is becoming less and less stronger. If anything making the pack rewards for Arena random makes it even more difficult for newer players to get the cards they need. Most of the staple cards are in the normal packs anyways so they have to take a coin flip to get a normal pack. Aggro decks though budget, become repetitive and don't really teach new players all that much besides that single archetype.
I've been thinking these last few days and brainstorming some possible ways to further develop Hearthstone but to make it easier for newer players to get caught up with things.
- Making you able to choose which pack you get from Arena through tokens or simply adding the option.
- Adding more beginner/unique quests.
Things like this would allow for newer players and veteran players to get something extra.
Do you guys have any possible suggestions or rebuttals to what I have to say? I've brought quite a few people onto this game throughout the expansions and I noticed how more challenging it is the more cards they release.
This doesn't apply to people willing to pay, but for F2P players wanting to get the full experience of Hearthstone.
"In this world where time is your enemy, it is my greatest ally. This grand game of life that you think you play in fact plays you. To that I say... Let the games begin!" - Nefarian
New ranked rewards, tavern brawl rewards etc. New players are fine. If you focus on one deck instead of a collection, it is no tougher than it was in vanilla to get to a competitive level.
Fair enough, I do agree that ranked rewards and the new tavern brawl rewards help, but what happens after they stop giving brawl rewards? I mean you'll still have your ranked rewards at the end of the season and the concept of being able to focus on one deck, which will most likely be budgeted decks like (aggro paladin, zoo, aggro hunter) etc.
Would you agree that the randomized arena rewards concept is a bit meh, and allow for people to choose what packs they get?
"In this world where time is your enemy, it is my greatest ally. This grand game of life that you think you play in fact plays you. To that I say... Let the games begin!" - Nefarian
Maybe this is just my bad attempt at trying to appeal to the community to abolish the random pack rewards for arena :^)
Thanks for the responses though and I understand where both of you are coming from, you have to think from a business perspective as well as a consumer perspective.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In this world where time is your enemy, it is my greatest ally. This grand game of life that you think you play in fact plays you. To that I say... Let the games begin!" - Nefarian
Even tho I've spent a few bucks, I believe the barrier to entry for new players is in fact too much now let alone in the future; playing one deck ad nauseum is just as likely to deter a new player than embrace them.
The game needs new players to remain healthy; cheapen Naxx in gold at this point would be sensible, a few more boosts in new player gold rewards (3-5 packs worth) seems smart. And of course choosing the arena pack only made sense, the random pack was at best ill thought out.
Besides the rank 20 farmers, I feel like most older player would enjoy continued competition.
Even tho I've spent a few bucks, I believe the barrier to entry for new players is in fact too much now let alone in the future; playing one deck ad nauseum is just as likely to deter a new player than embrace them.
The game needs new players to remain healthy; cheapen Naxx in gold at this point would be sensible, a few more boosts in new player gold rewards (3-5 packs worth) seems smart. And of course choosing the arena pack only made sense, the random pack was at best ill thought out.
Besides the rank 20 farmers, I feel like most older player would enjoy continued competition.
But as you play more, you get more. Ive only been playing 3 months and I already have 9 reasonable decks via free to play (then I started paying since I was becoming obssessed).
F2P players shouldn't be gettig the full experience. If you are not paying, then don't expect to progress at the same rate as those who paid. If you join the game 5 years late, don't expect to catch up to a full collection in less than 5 years.
Fair enough, I do agree that ranked rewards and the new tavern brawl rewards help, but what happens after they stop giving brawl rewards? I mean you'll still have your ranked rewards at the end of the season and the concept of being able to focus on one deck, which will most likely be budgeted decks like (aggro paladin, zoo, aggro hunter) etc.
Would you agree that the randomized arena rewards concept is a bit meh, and allow for people to choose what packs they get?
Arena packs are the least of the new players' concerns. They shouldn't even be playing arena since only 50% of arena players break even or better.
The biggest threat for new players is the sea of oppurtunist veterans advising them to play arena, just to add more noob fish into the arena pool to fuel their 7+ win runs.
i'm a full f2p never have invested money in the game player and i don't consider it like that, sure there are a lot of decks that i'd like to have Like lock and load hunter, token paladin, dragon priest and echo of giants/freeze mage and i can only afford one of them atm but at the end of the day i don't need them, in fact you ONLY need one deck and only ONE to be competitive and that's all that matters and this game offers the possibility of you getting that deck free of charge; try going to a gaming place and get started in say yugioh and/or mtg and see if anyone is willing to give you a deck for free,, at most another player will lend you his deck but it will keep being his deck unless you buy it from him oh and try not tog et your colection stolen by unscropolous players at that gaming place because it can and will happen as soon as you let your guard down (it did happen to me) whereas in here your collection is far safer..
as an example: i have gotten old tempo mage and oil rogue lists that still work fine post-tgt i also have a handlock that's running alex instead of malganis but the other cards are a pre-tgt handlock list that's pretty strong agaisnt current builds of dragon priest. it's not a matter of "being behind" or "not being able to complete a collection" its a matter of wanting isntant gratification without any kind of investment and not having the right mindset to complete a functional deck.
PS: so should i craft Token paladin(lacking tirion and 2 quartermasters) or Dragon priest?? (lacking 2 guardians and vol'jin) kind of in a conundrum here xD.
- Making you able to choose which pack you get from Arena through tokens or simply adding the option.
Randomized packs distract veteran Arena players, so it is better for newbies to play in Arena. Now that most pros left, newbies at least get a chance to get 5-6 wins.
- Making you able to choose which pack you get from Arena through tokens or simply adding the option.
Randomized packs distract veteran Arena players, so it is better for newbies to play in Arena. Now that most pros left, newbies at least get a chance to get 5-6 wins.
Veteran arena players don't car about the pack reward. To them, every pack is just dust, regardless of expansion. I doubt infinite arena players are going anywhere just because packs are randomized.
Vol'jin isn't necessary, just use a lightbomb or something.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In this world where time is your enemy, it is my greatest ally. This grand game of life that you think you play in fact plays you. To that I say... Let the games begin!" - Nefarian
Blizzard could do a lot more to help low budget players out and if they gave better ways for people to get started more people would end up invested in the game, meaning more people buying packs and a better experience for everyone. More people are going to get invested and pay for cards if they feel they want to spend money vs feeling they need to spend money to win I can think of three changes they could make to help new players out without any real trouble.
-Give very bad spellbound, common, and rare cards buffs to make them playable in line with power creep. This doesn't impact the game for players who have paid for cards they can build a deck around but as more and more expansions come out power creep is going to increase and while ultimately insignificant the way they came out with ice rager and evil heckler instead of buffing the original cards is a little worrisome and could come off to newer players as a dick move.
-Add static gold quests for leveling up heroes between 10 and 20. This idea comes from Blizzard's other free to play game. If someone is starting to get financially invested in Hearthstone they will likely start by going for the cards they like in one or two classes but the daily quest system gets in their way of investing and feeling rewarded with the one deck they really want to play.
-Allow for a limited amount of giving between friends. Pandora's box.
I'm a new player, now playing this game for 2 months. I haven't spend any money on the game and i'm not planning to also. But i love it! I can imagine myself playing this game for the next 5 years.
Maybe it's because i'm part of the 'older' gaming generation but i like a challenge. I have only 2 legendaries and a few epics but they're not really usable and i didn't get any wings of naxx/brm. I have to admit sometimes it's a little bit frustrating to get beaten by an opponent who got a bunch of legendaries and great cards but on the other hand it's even more satisfying when i beat them! :) Of course i can't assemble any of the good decks on this website, normally missing about half of the cards but luckily i like to make my own decks. I got a priest, shaman and mage deck which took me to level 8 ranked this month. Of course it would be almost impossible to reach legend but why should a new player aim for that?
And even if i get bored by losing the next 50/50 match because of my opponents dr boom, i can always play arena. Of course it's a bit difficult for new players at first but only by getting your dailies you can play arena every 3 days and even more if you're starting to get more and more wins.
It may sound strange but if Blizzard would decide to give me all the cards for free today i really have to think about if i want this... I like the chance each pack brings me another important part of my future deck, or the choices which common/rare could i craft to make my deck much better.
I understand that completely, thanks for the well thought out posts everyone, I'm glad we've been able to have meaningful dialogue.
I think the challenge should be there. I just want to see packs easier to obtain for F2Pers. I know Blizzard implemented the spectate quest but I was thinking stuff along the lines of Luckmasters ideas for more static gold quests and packs rewarded at x level for a certain class. They make more than enough money from people who decide they like this game and eventually pour money into it. I've only spent 70 myself, and that was just for the expansion and I have a full collection minus the crappy TGT legendaries.
"In this world where time is your enemy, it is my greatest ally. This grand game of life that you think you play in fact plays you. To that I say... Let the games begin!" - Nefarian
I think match making work pretty good for new players. Right from the start it was possible to get wins in casual with only the basic cards. After i got most classes on level 10 i even got on a 20 match win streak or something like that. As a new player you only play against other new players, i'm 100% sure about that.
Even my son who can't read the english language on the cards got about 50% win rate in casual after he started.
After that i play ranked and only reached level 18 and i had to change my decks drastically to get further. Now after 2 months i'm at rank 8 but it's much more difficult to win a casual match with a hero i don't play that often.
F2P players shouldn't be gettig the full experience. If you are not paying, then don't expect to progress at the same rate as those who paid. If you join the game 5 years late, don't expect to catch up to a full collection in less than 5 years.
Simple logic, really.
And how much should a non-free to play player pay to get the full experience?
Currently, you've got two completely unhealthy options: 1: Play the game as your day job 2: Pay the same price as you'd pay for 5-10 games of similar quality and size for the content of one such game
F2P players shouldn't be gettig the full experience. If you are not paying, then don't expect to progress at the same rate as those who paid. If you join the game 5 years late, don't expect to catch up to a full collection in less than 5 years.
Simple logic, really.
And how much should a non-free to play player pay to get the full experience?
Currently, you've got two completely unhealthy options: 1: Play the game as your day job 2: Pay the same price as you'd pay for 5-10 games of similar quality and size for the content of one such game
Define "full experience". Entire collection of cards, with no time investment, over thousand of dollars. Being able to craft 2 to 3 decent decks to play with, after 6 months of farming (aka playing the game), close to free.
A day job is 8 hours per day, i doubt that one needs to play that frequent to obtain reasonable amount of cards.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Put your face in the light!" - Tirion Fordring
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
As more and more expansions and adventures are being released, gradually increasing the card pool even more, it makes it harder for newer players to get into the game and catch up to everybody else. Not only do they have to grind for days to get some decent budget neutrals, they'll need to grind gold/arena/spend $ for Naxx/BRM/ and then all the gold for TGT/GvG/Normal cards. The argument for arena is becoming less and less stronger. If anything making the pack rewards for Arena random makes it even more difficult for newer players to get the cards they need. Most of the staple cards are in the normal packs anyways so they have to take a coin flip to get a normal pack. Aggro decks though budget, become repetitive and don't really teach new players all that much besides that single archetype.
I've been thinking these last few days and brainstorming some possible ways to further develop Hearthstone but to make it easier for newer players to get caught up with things.
- Making you able to choose which pack you get from Arena through tokens or simply adding the option.
- Adding more beginner/unique quests.
Things like this would allow for newer players and veteran players to get something extra.
Do you guys have any possible suggestions or rebuttals to what I have to say? I've brought quite a few people onto this game throughout the expansions and I noticed how more challenging it is the more cards they release.
This doesn't apply to people willing to pay, but for F2P players wanting to get the full experience of Hearthstone.
"In this world where time is your enemy, it is my greatest ally. This grand game of life that you think you play in fact plays you. To that I say... Let the games begin!" - Nefarian
New ranked rewards, tavern brawl rewards etc. New players are fine. If you focus on one deck instead of a collection, it is no tougher than it was in vanilla to get to a competitive level.
Fair enough, I do agree that ranked rewards and the new tavern brawl rewards help, but what happens after they stop giving brawl rewards? I mean you'll still have your ranked rewards at the end of the season and the concept of being able to focus on one deck, which will most likely be budgeted decks like (aggro paladin, zoo, aggro hunter) etc.
Would you agree that the randomized arena rewards concept is a bit meh, and allow for people to choose what packs they get?
"In this world where time is your enemy, it is my greatest ally. This grand game of life that you think you play in fact plays you. To that I say... Let the games begin!" - Nefarian
Maybe this is just my bad attempt at trying to appeal to the community to abolish the random pack rewards for arena :^)
Thanks for the responses though and I understand where both of you are coming from, you have to think from a business perspective as well as a consumer perspective.
"In this world where time is your enemy, it is my greatest ally. This grand game of life that you think you play in fact plays you. To that I say... Let the games begin!" - Nefarian
Even tho I've spent a few bucks, I believe the barrier to entry for new players is in fact too much now let alone in the future; playing one deck ad nauseum is just as likely to deter a new player than embrace them.
The game needs new players to remain healthy; cheapen Naxx in gold at this point would be sensible, a few more boosts in new player gold rewards (3-5 packs worth) seems smart. And of course choosing the arena pack only made sense, the random pack was at best ill thought out.
Besides the rank 20 farmers, I feel like most older player would enjoy continued competition.
But as you play more, you get more. Ive only been playing 3 months and I already have 9 reasonable decks via free to play (then I started paying since I was becoming obssessed).
They should have started earlier. Deal with it.
F2P players shouldn't be gettig the full experience. If you are not paying, then don't expect to progress at the same rate as those who paid. If you join the game 5 years late, don't expect to catch up to a full collection in less than 5 years.
Simple logic, really.
"Put your face in the light!" - Tirion Fordring
Arena packs are the least of the new players' concerns. They shouldn't even be playing arena since only 50% of arena players break even or better.
The biggest threat for new players is the sea of oppurtunist veterans advising them to play arena, just to add more noob fish into the arena pool to fuel their 7+ win runs.
"Put your face in the light!" - Tirion Fordring
i'm a full f2p never have invested money in the game player and i don't consider it like that, sure there are a lot of decks that i'd like to have Like lock and load hunter, token paladin, dragon priest and echo of giants/freeze mage and i can only afford one of them atm but at the end of the day i don't need them, in fact you ONLY need one deck and only ONE to be competitive and that's all that matters and this game offers the possibility of you getting that deck free of charge; try going to a gaming place and get started in say yugioh and/or mtg and see if anyone is willing to give you a deck for free,, at most another player will lend you his deck but it will keep being his deck unless you buy it from him oh and try not tog et your colection stolen by unscropolous players at that gaming place because it can and will happen as soon as you let your guard down (it did happen to me) whereas in here your collection is far safer..
as an example: i have gotten old tempo mage and oil rogue lists that still work fine post-tgt i also have a handlock that's running alex instead of malganis but the other cards are a pre-tgt handlock list that's pretty strong agaisnt current builds of dragon priest.
it's not a matter of "being behind" or "not being able to complete a collection" its a matter of wanting isntant gratification without any kind of investment and not having the right mindset to complete a functional deck.
PS: so should i craft Token paladin(lacking tirion and 2 quartermasters) or Dragon priest?? (lacking 2 guardians and vol'jin) kind of in a conundrum here xD.
Randomized packs distract veteran Arena players, so it is better for newbies to play in Arena. Now that most pros left, newbies at least get a chance to get 5-6 wins.
Never say "never say never"
Veteran arena players don't car about the pack reward. To them, every pack is just dust, regardless of expansion. I doubt infinite arena players are going anywhere just because packs are randomized.
"Put your face in the light!" - Tirion Fordring
At some point, they should give away the Naxxx expansion to new players as an incentive for them to catch up.
Vol'jin isn't necessary, just use a lightbomb or something.
"In this world where time is your enemy, it is my greatest ally. This grand game of life that you think you play in fact plays you. To that I say... Let the games begin!" - Nefarian
Blizzard could do a lot more to help low budget players out and if they gave better ways for people to get started more people would end up invested in the game, meaning more people buying packs and a better experience for everyone. More people are going to get invested and pay for cards if they feel they want to spend money vs feeling they need to spend money to win I can think of three changes they could make to help new players out without any real trouble.
-Give very bad spellbound, common, and rare cards buffs to make them playable in line with power creep. This doesn't impact the game for players who have paid for cards they can build a deck around but as more and more expansions come out power creep is going to increase and while ultimately insignificant the way they came out with ice rager and evil heckler instead of buffing the original cards is a little worrisome and could come off to newer players as a dick move.
-Add static gold quests for leveling up heroes between 10 and 20. This idea comes from Blizzard's other free to play game. If someone is starting to get financially invested in Hearthstone they will likely start by going for the cards they like in one or two classes but the daily quest system gets in their way of investing and feeling rewarded with the one deck they really want to play.
-Allow for a limited amount of giving between friends. Pandora's box.
I'm a new player, now playing this game for 2 months. I haven't spend any money on the game and i'm not planning to also. But i love it! I can imagine myself playing this game for the next 5 years.
Maybe it's because i'm part of the 'older' gaming generation but i like a challenge. I have only 2 legendaries and a few epics but they're not really usable and i didn't get any wings of naxx/brm. I have to admit sometimes it's a little bit frustrating to get beaten by an opponent who got a bunch of legendaries and great cards but on the other hand it's even more satisfying when i beat them! :)
Of course i can't assemble any of the good decks on this website, normally missing about half of the cards but luckily i like to make my own decks. I got a priest, shaman and mage deck which took me to level 8 ranked this month. Of course it would be almost impossible to reach legend but why should a new player aim for that?
And even if i get bored by losing the next 50/50 match because of my opponents dr boom, i can always play arena. Of course it's a bit difficult for new players at first but only by getting your dailies you can play arena every 3 days and even more if you're starting to get more and more wins.
It may sound strange but if Blizzard would decide to give me all the cards for free today i really have to think about if i want this... I like the chance each pack brings me another important part of my future deck, or the choices which common/rare could i craft to make my deck much better.
I understand that completely, thanks for the well thought out posts everyone, I'm glad we've been able to have meaningful dialogue.
I think the challenge should be there. I just want to see packs easier to obtain for F2Pers. I know Blizzard implemented the spectate quest but I was thinking stuff along the lines of Luckmasters ideas for more static gold quests and packs rewarded at x level for a certain class. They make more than enough money from people who decide they like this game and eventually pour money into it. I've only spent 70 myself, and that was just for the expansion and I have a full collection minus the crappy TGT legendaries.
"In this world where time is your enemy, it is my greatest ally. This grand game of life that you think you play in fact plays you. To that I say... Let the games begin!" - Nefarian
I think match making work pretty good for new players. Right from the start it was possible to get wins in casual with only the basic cards. After i got most classes on level 10 i even got on a 20 match win streak or something like that. As a new player you only play against other new players, i'm 100% sure about that.
Even my son who can't read the english language on the cards got about 50% win rate in casual after he started.
After that i play ranked and only reached level 18 and i had to change my decks drastically to get further. Now after 2 months i'm at rank 8 but it's much more difficult to win a casual match with a hero i don't play that often.
1000 dust would have been nice though. :)
And how much should a non-free to play player pay to get the full experience?
Currently, you've got two completely unhealthy options:
1: Play the game as your day job
2: Pay the same price as you'd pay for 5-10 games of similar quality and size for the content of one such game
Define "full experience". Entire collection of cards, with no time investment, over thousand of dollars. Being able to craft 2 to 3 decent decks to play with, after 6 months of farming (aka playing the game), close to free.
A day job is 8 hours per day, i doubt that one needs to play that frequent to obtain reasonable amount of cards.
"Put your face in the light!" - Tirion Fordring