Everyone is talking about Nerfs here and there, yet all high win rate decks are more or less secured because of one single old mechanic: Discover!
With the indroduction of the core sets we basically havbe almost no Garbage Tier cards left. We barely have any cards right now anyway as there was a rotation, too.
How was this obvious problem not seen before?
I am tired of losing my games because of discovered cards while outplaying some garbage players out there. If the blue smurfs out there don't see this problem they shall lose their jobs and nevber get a job as game designer again.
Discover is the closest thing we have to a sideboard in this game and only is close to be a issue after a rotation with small pool of cards and not a problem at all after that.
If really was a issue the warrior card turn all your deck into discover spell was broken and nerfed instead a meme no one played.
Certainty in a constructed deck built with specific goal in mind will always be better than any RNG. You can't optimise by relying on finding something through a Discover effect. It's just not how it works. If your spell/minion with discover works for the strategy alone and Discover is a bonus then great. Otherwise, I tend to cut those cards out (as a Mage, I dislike Wand Thief for this reason, for example - weak minion that does nothing, it's basically there for Discover. Runed Orb is great, though).
I'd maintain the issue with both Standard and Wild is any card discount mechanics that allow anything less than 1. All "Your spells cost (X) less" should also be "... but not less than (0)." Anything other than this gives rise to nothing but degenerate gameplay. And before anyone complains "... this would adversely affect XXX specific gameplay!" keep in mind this is the same game that had the Shaman spell damage totem erased essentially OVERNIGHT for no good reason, effectively destroying Odd Shaman in wild, and greatly damaging Standard gameplay with other cards, such as Ras... with little recognition or fanfare.
Certainty in a constructed deck built with specific goal in mind will always be better than any RNG. You can't optimise by relying on finding something through a Discover effect. It's just not how it works. If your spell/minion with discover works for the strategy alone and Discover is a bonus then great. Otherwise, I tend to cut those cards out (as a Mage, I dislike Wand Thief for this reason, for example - weak minion that does nothing, it's basically there for Discover. Runed Orb is great, though).
Discover at its best is really just card advantage. Whether or not it's random really isn't that relevant, but cards that do a thing and then translate into gaining more cards is real strong. The point has been made on this thread that the strongest decks in Standard are in fact the ones that do random things the least, they're very calculated and don't deviate from their deck much.
One of the reasons Demon Hunter is able to be so powerful is because it lacks built in random effects. Face Hunter has a similar strength, it doesn't need to depend on RNG any more than any deck in a card game does (drawing cards is RNG). And of course, Paladin right now randomly pulls secrets out of the deck, but that's basically form of card draw - the cards just cost (0) in a way. Other than that they don't need Random Generation to be good or strong. That's the thing with aggro/midrange, they are sort of forced to make the most out of the resources they don't have access to, since if they spend time dedicated to random generation they're not progressing the game plan of hit-the-face.
Discover is a fine mechanic but it's true that any RNG effect has the potential to be better with a smaller pool size. Especially when you can choose one of the three. And the standard pool is currently quite good on average. Therefore you can't compare the discover mechanic i standard and wild, because of the pool size.
Now it is definitely not the single most broken thing in the game. It's not even broken. It's just a decent mechanic one or two of the stronger cards in the game use.
as with pretty much every ccg the biggest balance issues that come up are to do with mana cheating or getting too many resources (cards or stats) for too little cost.
I think removing it is a very radical idea. It is a fun and skill-testing mechanic but I am a firm believer that legendary cards shouldn't be discoverable unless the card specifically says so. At least, cards of different rarity should have a different chance to be discovered.
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Everyone is talking about Nerfs here and there, yet all high win rate decks are more or less secured because of one single old mechanic: Discover!
With the indroduction of the core sets we basically havbe almost no Garbage Tier cards left. We barely have any cards right now anyway as there was a rotation, too.
How was this obvious problem not seen before?
I am tired of losing my games because of discovered cards while outplaying some garbage players out there. If the blue smurfs out there don't see this problem they shall lose their jobs and nevber get a job as game designer again.
I see your point but idk man, it's kinda fun
Paladin has zero discover and it's easily the best class right now
The best classes in the game barely discover.
Well, Paladin has Kazakus if that counts.
Anyway, it's not just Paladin. Warrior and Hunter are the next classes in terms of overall winrate and they have almost no discover as well.
The situation is pretty much the same in wild, with secret mage and murloc shaman instead of Warrior and Hunter.
OP probably just met a Priest or something. They are right, though, when they say that the pool of discovers has been much worse in the past.
*looks at wild* no, I think discover is just fine.
You can play MTG if you want a serious CCG.
Take a walk on the wild side...
Discover is the closest thing we have to a sideboard in this game and only is close to be a issue after a rotation with small pool of cards and not a problem at all after that.
If really was a issue the warrior card turn all your deck into discover spell was broken and nerfed instead a meme no one played.
Certainty in a constructed deck built with specific goal in mind will always be better than any RNG. You can't optimise by relying on finding something through a Discover effect. It's just not how it works. If your spell/minion with discover works for the strategy alone and Discover is a bonus then great. Otherwise, I tend to cut those cards out (as a Mage, I dislike Wand Thief for this reason, for example - weak minion that does nothing, it's basically there for Discover. Runed Orb is great, though).
I'd maintain the issue with both Standard and Wild is any card discount mechanics that allow anything less than 1. All "Your spells cost (X) less" should also be "... but not less than (0)." Anything other than this gives rise to nothing but degenerate gameplay. And before anyone complains "... this would adversely affect XXX specific gameplay!" keep in mind this is the same game that had the Shaman spell damage totem erased essentially OVERNIGHT for no good reason, effectively destroying Odd Shaman in wild, and greatly damaging Standard gameplay with other cards, such as Ras... with little recognition or fanfare.
My thoughts exactly. Hate Wand Thief, love Venomous Scorpid.
Discover at its best is really just card advantage. Whether or not it's random really isn't that relevant, but cards that do a thing and then translate into gaining more cards is real strong. The point has been made on this thread that the strongest decks in Standard are in fact the ones that do random things the least, they're very calculated and don't deviate from their deck much.
One of the reasons Demon Hunter is able to be so powerful is because it lacks built in random effects. Face Hunter has a similar strength, it doesn't need to depend on RNG any more than any deck in a card game does (drawing cards is RNG). And of course, Paladin right now randomly pulls secrets out of the deck, but that's basically form of card draw - the cards just cost (0) in a way. Other than that they don't need Random Generation to be good or strong. That's the thing with aggro/midrange, they are sort of forced to make the most out of the resources they don't have access to, since if they spend time dedicated to random generation they're not progressing the game plan of hit-the-face.
please don't bully my son
kazakus is only priest, warlock and mage...
To live is to suffer, to survive is to find meaning in the suffer!
What are you talking about? Kazakus golem shaped? Neutral legendary?
ah yes, i forgot about that kazakus, i was thinking about the old kazakus :S
To live is to suffer, to survive is to find meaning in the suffer!
Discover is a fine mechanic but it's true that any RNG effect has the potential to be better with a smaller pool size. Especially when you can choose one of the three. And the standard pool is currently quite good on average. Therefore you can't compare the discover mechanic i standard and wild, because of the pool size.
Now it is definitely not the single most broken thing in the game. It's not even broken. It's just a decent mechanic one or two of the stronger cards in the game use.
Silver Hand Recruit
as with pretty much every ccg the biggest balance issues that come up are to do with mana cheating or getting too many resources (cards or stats) for too little cost.
NOPE
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NOPE
NOPE
NOPE
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NOPE
EU 11/2015+ , f2p 03/2021+: DK 63 / DH 205 /Dr 277 / Hu 733 / Ma 6666 / Pa 1072 / Pr 1165 / Ro 1791 / Sh 1303 / Wl 707 / Wr 664
I think removing it is a very radical idea. It is a fun and skill-testing mechanic but I am a firm believer that legendary cards shouldn't be discoverable unless the card specifically says so. At least, cards of different rarity should have a different chance to be discovered.