So, I've been around Hearthstone since the beginning, and one thing that's never changed is that any time something costs money, the floodgates open, and a deluge of complaints descend upon every hearthstone forum in existence. I have never understood the juxtapositioning of "I don't want to spend money" with "I want to be competitive." These two philosophies simply do not go together.
This is also true in other forms of competition. If you play tennis, for example, hard work and practice will get you most of the way there, but players who spend on the best rackets, the best shoes, and the best coaching will have a significant advantage over those who do not. My personal belief is that what SOME of these perennial complainers really mean is "I don't want to spend money, but I DESERVE to be competitive." This way of thinking belongs in the trash can with other phrases of the entitled such as "I don't want to study, but deserve an A+" and "I don't want to work, but deserve to be wealthy."
You are NOT entitled to free gaming, and if that's what you desire, there are plenty of games where you can do just that (including some of the game modes of Hearthstone, by the way) not to mention that there are legitimate players who grind daily and DO NOT spend money, but instead sacrifice their time, in order to get what they need to stay competitive.
So, in conclusion, if you don't want to put in the time OR the money, then what are you even complaining about?
TL/DR: You can't be competitive without sacrifice, so if you aren't sacrificing anything, stop complaining about it being unfair.
While I totally agree with your sentiment, I think there's a slippy slope in what you're saying. You're implying that by paying money you should be more competitive. That's the heart of a pay to win game, and that's not a path I would hope the Hearthstone would go down.
To be clear - I currently don't think HS is pay2win and of course every developer is entitiled to monetize their game however they see fit (im not considering battleground because it's not a format I play). As it stands I think you can be as competitive as anyone else without paying any money at all. It might take you a little longer to get the optimal deck, or it might mean you can only play one or two meta decks every cycle, but that's a decision you make by not paying money.
I agree wholeheartedly that the "I want more free stuff" posts on the forums are a bit misguided. At the end of the day, if you really want more stuff you can always decide to buy it. There are arguments about whether the current card pack/reward system is value for money, but again, that's a decision that an individual makes.
While I totally agree with your sentiment, I think there's a slippy slope in what you're saying. You're implying that by paying money you should be more competitive. That's the heart of a pay to win game, and that's not a path I would hope the Hearthstone would go down.
To be clear - I currently don't think HS is pay2win and of course every developer is entitiled to monetize their game however they see fit (im not considering battleground because it's not a format I play). As it stands I think you can be as competitive as anyone else without paying any money at all. It might take you a little longer to get the optimal deck, or it might mean you can only play one or two meta decks every cycle, but that's a decision you make by not paying money.
I agree wholeheartedly that the "I want more free stuff" posts on the forums are a bit misguided. At the end of the day, if you really want more stuff you can always decide to buy it. There are arguments about whether the current card pack/reward system is value for money, but again, that's a decision that an individual makes.
I agree with your statement as well, but to clarify -- I do not think spending money AUTOMATICALLY makes one more competitive. However, you need a robust card collection in order to be competitive. In order to do this you have two options -- spend money, dedicate time, or (even better) do both. But if you're going to do neither, you have no right to complain in my view, and those who do so appear to me as bratty children who didn't get the toy they wanted hahah
Comparing HS to real sports? lmao what a sad argument.
I think the word you're looking for is "analogy". The example is not cruicial to the point at hand but it serves to illustrate the point being made. Now shuffle off to your hiding hole under a bridge somewhere...
there is truth in ur post but also alot of contradiction. even the title is acceptable just cause of the wide interpretation u can give to "some of you" lol.
u start by saying : "the juxtapositioning of "I don't want to spend money" with "I want to be competitive." These two philosophies simply do not go together." and finish up by saying : "So, in conclusion, if you don't want to put in the time OR the money, then what are you even complaining about? TL/DR: You can't be competitive without sacrifice, so if you aren't sacrificing anything, stop complaining about it being unfair."
even the example u're offering is biased (tennis is a very "restrictive" sport from the start cuz of its costs) and not entirely true cuz MOST of dem big athletes (not from tennis) are ppl who started from scratch and got to where are/were mostly cuz of lack of money ... money gives u, besides everything else, a little bit of insurrance, fallback mechanism so the mentality "succeed or go bust" is not there from the start. Also, true in sports and in HS, there's a difference in means and willingness (at least) depending where u're from. if a person is willing to pay 80$ x 3 times per year (lets say average) in the wealthier countries, that doesnt mean a person who doesnt have (or is not willing to pay) this kind of $ should be barred from playing/succeeding...
u are right in saying "You can't be competitive without sacrifice, so if you aren't sacrificing anything, stop complaining about it being unfair", so what about them f2p's who're sacrificing their time for being able to generate the resources they need to stay competitive? this is the point of the complains, ppl who are putting in the time just to watch bli$$ not valuing it at all...
TL/DR: You can't be competitive without sacrifice, so if you aren't sacrificing anything, stop complaining about it being unfair.
I agree, but as always, the people who need to read this, won't. You can expect the same number of salty forum threads and comments to pop up forever...
Also, the people who say things like "wow, you actually spent money on this game, you idiot" drive me crazy, too.
Like, if literally nobody paid money for HS, ever, they would never be able to keep funding it and have all these expansions. So, they should appreciate the ones who do support it financially.
Yeah, you tell 'em! That should end all debate forever!
Fortunately there's this one brave hero explaining how the real world works and breaks the cold hard truth to those coddled, spoiled millenials!
Like really, what do you think should come from this? Where is this supposed to go? People saluting you? A purge? Do we need to get rid of "the plebs"? Do you just want to vent because you are constipated or is there an actual reason or motivation for your rant? Shouldn't you have better things to do?
I don't want to repeat for the 100th time why such sentiments are mostly nonsense. I already know that this is going nowhere.
I'll just save some time and use your logic against you: From what it looks like, you spent neither time nor effort nor money on actually learning how to debate, much less about socio-economic or game design topics in particular. So, you are not "entitled" to have this debate. Or my attention. Which is now wasted on you.
Your "arguments", if I dare call them as such, lack proper consideration, are one-sided, and try to be convincing just through an authoritarian tone, where you paint yourself as someone seeing things clear through the eye of "reason". Thank goodness you didn't bring up something like health insurance or social welfare, and just stayed within the limits of Hearthstone! Because those topics are right around the corner from where you are coming from.
I need to install a wordfilter to block out pieces like this. I could miss out on interesting articles or comments on human rights or legal procedures, but 99% of the people online using the word "entitled" don't know and don't care what it normally means and only use it in the pejorative sense.
By the way: You complain about people complaining too much whenever something money-related comes up. But I know that for every single person complaining in that direction, there is at least one other person (and usually more) like you, repeating these exact points EVERY SINGLE TIME. If you were any more level-headed than those people you want to see out, you might have a point that those people are "problematic", but you really are a part of the problem.
u are right in saying "You can't be competitive without sacrifice, so if you aren't sacrificing anything, stop complaining about it being unfair", so what about them f2p's who're sacrificing their time for being able to generate the resources they need to stay competitive? this is the point of the complains, ppl who are putting in the time just to watch bli$$ not valuing it at all...
F2P player since vanilla here. I put a lot of time each expansion and I've always been able to craft a couple of top tier decks. As a f2p player If you think you "deserve better", either you spend more time and git gud or you shut up and stop complaining.
Well as I see it, you can see hearthstone as a card game. In that case it's always been a thing to buy cards to play. Difference here is that it's a lot cheaper for them to produce these cards, that real cards that need to be printed and shipped out. But then again the packs are a bit cheaper to then most regular packs of cards. However in real card game, the high value cards can actually be sold again, when you tire of the card game. This is impossible here, unless you want to break some rules. So since your card will stop working if the game stops and you can't actually sell them, they should be way cheaper to buy.
You could otherwise just see hearthstone as a regular game. Most game cost 60 dollar, with some extra maybe 90 dollars. That is close to what one expansion cost for the average player. That is for example a lot more then wow cost, and when they pay they get a lot more.
So anyway what I'm saying is, not matter how you see it, you are getting robbed. But it can be fine, I like to support them too, but I'm not going to want to spend money on a game that makes me feel stupid for tossing money in a lake. They are currently trying to get as much for the higher payers as possible, but instead they could be focusing on lowering the prices so more can buy and play. And they would still earn enough money, and less people would feel locked out, or agitated by overpricing.
But yeah I agree that of course you shouldn't get everything for free, part of a card game is collecting, but it doesn't mean that we have to be satisficed with the prices of the product.
Ive spent money too but why it makes e more competitive? If I build the most expensive standard highlander deck, I will still lose when I play against face hunter and soul DH.
Spending money gives you more options to play the top meta decks and adjust to meta changes quickly but it doesn’t make you more competitive IMO. Assuming you are happy to play the same two decks non stop that is
Yeah, you tell 'em! That should end all debate forever!
Fortunately there's this one brave hero explaining how the real world works and breaks the cold hard truth to those coddled, spoiled millenials!
Like really, what do you think should come from this? Where is this supposed to go? People saluting you? A purge? Do we need to get rid of "the plebs"? Do you just want to vent because you are constipated or is there an actual reason or motivation for your rant? Shouldn't you have better things to do?
I don't want to repeat for the 100th time why such sentiments are mostly nonsense. I already know that this is going nowhere.
I'll just save some time and use your logic against you: From what it looks like, you spent neither time nor effort nor money on actually learning how to debate, much less about socio-economic or game design topics in particular. So, you are not "entitled" to have this debate. Or my attention. Which is now wasted on you.
Your "arguments", if I dare call them as such, lack proper consideration, are one-sided, and try to be convincing just through an authoritarian tone, where you paint yourself as someone seeing things clear through the eye of "reason". Thank goodness you didn't bring up something like health insurance or social welfare, and just stayed within the limits of Hearthstone! Because those topics are right around the corner from where you are coming from.
I need to install a wordfilter to block out pieces like this. I could miss out on interesting articles or comments on human rights or legal procedures, but 99% of the people online using the word "entitled" don't know and don't care what it normally means and only use it in the pejorative sense.
By the way: You complain about people complaining too much whenever something money-related comes up. But I know that for every single person complaining in that direction, there is at least one other person (and usually more) like you, repeating these exact points EVERY SINGLE TIME. If you were any more level-headed than those people you want to see out, you might have a point that those people are "problematic", but you really are a part of the problem.
No offence to you but as someone who professionally debated in high school and college, I would never go into an argument insulting my opponent. Saying these types of things does not prove an argument at all and again I dont want to be a jerk but it makes your argument look worse. Everyone has the right to agree or disagree with the op's post but he never said that he felt "entitled to someone elses attention". You chose to read this post so if you are going to disagree with the op's opinion then go after the argument not the person.
I get that not everyone has the means to spend large amounts of money on a game. I TOTALLY understand that.
But, that being said -- if you want it badly enough, you can get your 30 wins a day (100 gold) AND your daily quest (average 50 gold) which is 150 total gold per day. That's 18,000 gold per expansion. So, if you cant be competitive with that, the problem COULD be you.
Also, a quick word about my analogy of tennis, a "restrictive" sport as you say:
Serena Williams is possibly the greatest female player of all time. She grew up without the means of most of her competitors, but through hard work and dedication to her sport, she was able to overcome what many would call impossible odds. If you want it badly enough and are willing to put in the work, you'll find a way.
u are right in saying "You can't be competitive without sacrifice, so if you aren't sacrificing anything, stop complaining about it being unfair", so what about them f2p's who're sacrificing their time for being able to generate the resources they need to stay competitive? this is the point of the complains, ppl who are putting in the time just to watch bli$$ not valuing it at all...
But the F2P players are rewarded. Any player who plays the game sufficiently is rewarded. The degree varies of course, based on the effort and time you put in, but that's to be expected. If you play 20 minutes a day why should you expect to have the same resources as someone who plays 5-6 hours a day to farm max gold?
Claiming that F2P efforts are not regarded is false, plain and simple. They are forced into a slower start, but since the collections are fixed sets of cards, they eventually end up in the same spot as anyone else. Multiple HS streamers/players have showcased that a F2P legend run/or full daily farming is possible.
Should the reward system be revamped to favor the F2P players or players with minimal time? That's another story. Maybe the reward system (gold) could be skewed towards the first wins of the day rather than have it spread equally through the daily progress. (e.g. first 3 wins reward -40 gold-, next 3 -15 gold- and then round up to 100, instead of solid 10g every 3 wins). But I digress.
CakeEater, I respectfully say you fucking nailed it on the head. They are humans, they have families to feed and a life to live, their just like us, employees and educators trying to weave through life day by day. Whatever decision Blizzard makes, it might be good or it might be bad, but at the end of the remember that the game is F2P and only survives on the people who are willing to spend. Life has taught me many things, but the most important one is to be grateful for what you have. What I have now wouldn't have happened if I didn't put in the time and dedication to get here, nothing is handed in life, but earned.
Like really, what do you think should come from this? Where is this supposed to go? People saluting you? A purge? Do we need to get rid of "the plebs"? Do you just want to vent because you are constipated or is there an actual reason or motivation for your rant? Shouldn't you have better things to do?
I'm not trying to offend anyone, or elicit grand change. I was simply stating my opinion on a forum designed for stating opinions. If you took this personally, I have no explanation for that...
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All of what follows is my own opinion:
So, I've been around Hearthstone since the beginning, and one thing that's never changed is that any time something costs money, the floodgates open, and a deluge of complaints descend upon every hearthstone forum in existence. I have never understood the juxtapositioning of "I don't want to spend money" with "I want to be competitive." These two philosophies simply do not go together.
This is also true in other forms of competition. If you play tennis, for example, hard work and practice will get you most of the way there, but players who spend on the best rackets, the best shoes, and the best coaching will have a significant advantage over those who do not. My personal belief is that what SOME of these perennial complainers really mean is "I don't want to spend money, but I DESERVE to be competitive." This way of thinking belongs in the trash can with other phrases of the entitled such as "I don't want to study, but deserve an A+" and "I don't want to work, but deserve to be wealthy."
You are NOT entitled to free gaming, and if that's what you desire, there are plenty of games where you can do just that (including some of the game modes of Hearthstone, by the way) not to mention that there are legitimate players who grind daily and DO NOT spend money, but instead sacrifice their time, in order to get what they need to stay competitive.
So, in conclusion, if you don't want to put in the time OR the money, then what are you even complaining about?
TL/DR: You can't be competitive without sacrifice, so if you aren't sacrificing anything, stop complaining about it being unfair.
I totally agree, Is blizzard supposed to make a game out of the kindness of the hearts? they need to make money
While I totally agree with your sentiment, I think there's a slippy slope in what you're saying. You're implying that by paying money you should be more competitive. That's the heart of a pay to win game, and that's not a path I would hope the Hearthstone would go down.
To be clear - I currently don't think HS is pay2win and of course every developer is entitiled to monetize their game however they see fit (im not considering battleground because it's not a format I play). As it stands I think you can be as competitive as anyone else without paying any money at all. It might take you a little longer to get the optimal deck, or it might mean you can only play one or two meta decks every cycle, but that's a decision you make by not paying money.
I agree wholeheartedly that the "I want more free stuff" posts on the forums are a bit misguided. At the end of the day, if you really want more stuff you can always decide to buy it. There are arguments about whether the current card pack/reward system is value for money, but again, that's a decision that an individual makes.
I agree with your statement as well, but to clarify -- I do not think spending money AUTOMATICALLY makes one more competitive. However, you need a robust card collection in order to be competitive. In order to do this you have two options -- spend money, dedicate time, or (even better) do both. But if you're going to do neither, you have no right to complain in my view, and those who do so appear to me as bratty children who didn't get the toy they wanted hahah
Comparing HS to real sports? lmao what a sad argument.
I think the word you're looking for is "analogy". The example is not cruicial to the point at hand but it serves to illustrate the point being made. Now shuffle off to your hiding hole under a bridge somewhere...
there is truth in ur post but also alot of contradiction. even the title is acceptable just cause of the wide interpretation u can give to "some of you" lol.
u start by saying : "the juxtapositioning of "I don't want to spend money" with "I want to be competitive." These two philosophies simply do not go together." and finish up by saying : "So, in conclusion, if you don't want to put in the time OR the money, then what are you even complaining about? TL/DR: You can't be competitive without sacrifice, so if you aren't sacrificing anything, stop complaining about it being unfair."
even the example u're offering is biased (tennis is a very "restrictive" sport from the start cuz of its costs) and not entirely true cuz MOST of dem big athletes (not from tennis) are ppl who started from scratch and got to where are/were mostly cuz of lack of money ... money gives u, besides everything else, a little bit of insurrance, fallback mechanism so the mentality "succeed or go bust" is not there from the start. Also, true in sports and in HS, there's a difference in means and willingness (at least) depending where u're from. if a person is willing to pay 80$ x 3 times per year (lets say average) in the wealthier countries, that doesnt mean a person who doesnt have (or is not willing to pay) this kind of $ should be barred from playing/succeeding...
u are right in saying "You can't be competitive without sacrifice, so if you aren't sacrificing anything, stop complaining about it being unfair", so what about them f2p's who're sacrificing their time for being able to generate the resources they need to stay competitive? this is the point of the complains, ppl who are putting in the time just to watch bli$$ not valuing it at all...
I agree, but as always, the people who need to read this, won't. You can expect the same number of salty forum threads and comments to pop up forever...
Also, the people who say things like "wow, you actually spent money on this game, you idiot" drive me crazy, too.
Like, if literally nobody paid money for HS, ever, they would never be able to keep funding it and have all these expansions. So, they should appreciate the ones who do support it financially.
To all of them, I say, you're welcome.
I agree with the author 100%.
Breaking news, gamers. This just in: Companies exist to make money, not provide free entertainment.
In other news, water still wet. Sky, still blue.
Yeah, you tell 'em! That should end all debate forever!
Fortunately there's this one brave hero explaining how the real world works and breaks the cold hard truth to those coddled, spoiled millenials!
Like really, what do you think should come from this? Where is this supposed to go? People saluting you? A purge? Do we need to get rid of "the plebs"? Do you just want to vent because you are constipated or is there an actual reason or motivation for your rant? Shouldn't you have better things to do?
I don't want to repeat for the 100th time why such sentiments are mostly nonsense. I already know that this is going nowhere.
I'll just save some time and use your logic against you: From what it looks like, you spent neither time nor effort nor money on actually learning how to debate, much less about socio-economic or game design topics in particular. So, you are not "entitled" to have this debate. Or my attention. Which is now wasted on you.
Your "arguments", if I dare call them as such, lack proper consideration, are one-sided, and try to be convincing just through an authoritarian tone, where you paint yourself as someone seeing things clear through the eye of "reason". Thank goodness you didn't bring up something like health insurance or social welfare, and just stayed within the limits of Hearthstone! Because those topics are right around the corner from where you are coming from.
I need to install a wordfilter to block out pieces like this. I could miss out on interesting articles or comments on human rights or legal procedures, but 99% of the people online using the word "entitled" don't know and don't care what it normally means and only use it in the pejorative sense.
By the way: You complain about people complaining too much whenever something money-related comes up. But I know that for every single person complaining in that direction, there is at least one other person (and usually more) like you, repeating these exact points EVERY SINGLE TIME. If you were any more level-headed than those people you want to see out, you might have a point that those people are "problematic", but you really are a part of the problem.
F2P player since vanilla here. I put a lot of time each expansion and I've always been able to craft a couple of top tier decks. As a f2p player If you think you "deserve better", either you spend more time and git gud or you shut up and stop complaining.
Well as I see it, you can see hearthstone as a card game. In that case it's always been a thing to buy cards to play. Difference here is that it's a lot cheaper for them to produce these cards, that real cards that need to be printed and shipped out. But then again the packs are a bit cheaper to then most regular packs of cards. However in real card game, the high value cards can actually be sold again, when you tire of the card game. This is impossible here, unless you want to break some rules. So since your card will stop working if the game stops and you can't actually sell them, they should be way cheaper to buy.
You could otherwise just see hearthstone as a regular game. Most game cost 60 dollar, with some extra maybe 90 dollars. That is close to what one expansion cost for the average player. That is for example a lot more then wow cost, and when they pay they get a lot more.
So anyway what I'm saying is, not matter how you see it, you are getting robbed. But it can be fine, I like to support them too, but I'm not going to want to spend money on a game that makes me feel stupid for tossing money in a lake. They are currently trying to get as much for the higher payers as possible, but instead they could be focusing on lowering the prices so more can buy and play. And they would still earn enough money, and less people would feel locked out, or agitated by overpricing.
But yeah I agree that of course you shouldn't get everything for free, part of a card game is collecting, but it doesn't mean that we have to be satisficed with the prices of the product.
Ive spent money too but why it makes e more competitive? If I build the most expensive standard highlander deck, I will still lose when I play against face hunter and soul DH.
Spending money gives you more options to play the top meta decks and adjust to meta changes quickly but it doesn’t make you more competitive IMO. Assuming you are happy to play the same two decks non stop that is
People just want to have the collection you've been building for 7 years by just playing a couple of months AND for free
No offence to you but as someone who professionally debated in high school and college, I would never go into an argument insulting my opponent. Saying these types of things does not prove an argument at all and again I dont want to be a jerk but it makes your argument look worse. Everyone has the right to agree or disagree with the op's post but he never said that he felt "entitled to someone elses attention". You chose to read this post so if you are going to disagree with the op's opinion then go after the argument not the person.
I get that not everyone has the means to spend large amounts of money on a game. I TOTALLY understand that.
But, that being said -- if you want it badly enough, you can get your 30 wins a day (100 gold) AND your daily quest (average 50 gold) which is 150 total gold per day. That's 18,000 gold per expansion. So, if you cant be competitive with that, the problem COULD be you.
Also, a quick word about my analogy of tennis, a "restrictive" sport as you say:
Serena Williams is possibly the greatest female player of all time. She grew up without the means of most of her competitors, but through hard work and dedication to her sport, she was able to overcome what many would call impossible odds. If you want it badly enough and are willing to put in the work, you'll find a way.
Agreed.. Someone had to drop dat knowledge
But the F2P players are rewarded. Any player who plays the game sufficiently is rewarded. The degree varies of course, based on the effort and time you put in, but that's to be expected. If you play 20 minutes a day why should you expect to have the same resources as someone who plays 5-6 hours a day to farm max gold?
Claiming that F2P efforts are not regarded is false, plain and simple. They are forced into a slower start, but since the collections are fixed sets of cards, they eventually end up in the same spot as anyone else. Multiple HS streamers/players have showcased that a F2P legend run/or full daily farming is possible.
Should the reward system be revamped to favor the F2P players or players with minimal time? That's another story. Maybe the reward system (gold) could be skewed towards the first wins of the day rather than have it spread equally through the daily progress. (e.g. first 3 wins reward -40 gold-, next 3 -15 gold- and then round up to 100, instead of solid 10g every 3 wins). But I digress.
Never BM. Unless they BM you first. Then you always BM.
CakeEater, I respectfully say you fucking nailed it on the head. They are humans, they have families to feed and a life to live, their just like us, employees and educators trying to weave through life day by day. Whatever decision Blizzard makes, it might be good or it might be bad, but at the end of the remember that the game is F2P and only survives on the people who are willing to spend. Life has taught me many things, but the most important one is to be grateful for what you have. What I have now wouldn't have happened if I didn't put in the time and dedication to get here, nothing is handed in life, but earned.
I'm not trying to offend anyone, or elicit grand change. I was simply stating my opinion on a forum designed for stating opinions. If you took this personally, I have no explanation for that...