Never autoconcede unless you honestly have no answer to it. But your deck should always have a way to beat a big minion.
As mentioned above, every class has some answers.
Well, sure there's partial answers if you high rolled into whatever you needed and things go exactly your way. But it's not just that it's a big minion. It also heals for 8. And only costs like 4 or 5 mana. And likely there's a second one in hand that's going to get played next turn. If it was just a big minion, it wouldn't be such a big deal. But when played, it's just a game ender. I can understand some cards being game enders. Rattlegore comes to mind as appropriate. But a 4 or 5 mana game ender? And it's absolutely worth auto conceding to this card. Your chance of winning unless your high roll response is ready to go is abysmal. Your time is better spent queueing up another match. Is there any other card in this game that's a bigger tempo move that comes out that early? Guardian Animals maybe, but it requires so much ramping and dead turns. Paladin can reduce the cost on this monster of a card by just doing stuff they want to do anyways. Just as an example, not calling for this, but if you completely removed the healing aspect of this card, it would still see 100% play. An 8/8 taunt divine shield minion for 4 or 5 mana even without the healing component is crazy strong.
This seems like a bazaare thing to say. It's so apparent in how untrue it is. Depends on the deck you're using. Just last week I beat a Paladin that managed to play 4 copies of Hope and I still won. So no, it would have been very foolish of me indeed to auto concede to the first one.
This seems like a bazaare thing to say. It's so apparent in how untrue it is. Depends on the deck you're using. Just last week I beat a Paladin that managed to play 4 copies of Hope and I still won. So no, it would have been very foolish of me indeed to auto concede to the first one.
Would it have really been foolish though? Like you said, I guess it depends on deck type. I guess you were playing a priest deck when you dealt with that. But to win that match you had to grind through 32 health worth of hero healing, 4 divine shields and another 32 health worth of taunt minions that the opposing player played for maybe 2 or 3 turns worth of mana. Instead you could have just played 2 or 3 other matches that didn't involve nonsense like that.
This seems like a bazaare thing to say. It's so apparent in how untrue it is. Depends on the deck you're using. Just last week I beat a Paladin that managed to play 4 copies of Hope and I still won. So no, it would have been very foolish of me indeed to auto concede to the first one.
Would it have really been foolish though? Like you said, I guess it depends on deck type. I guess you were playing a priest deck when you dealt with that. But to win that match you had to grind through 32 health worth of hero healing, 4 divine shields and another 32 health worth of taunt minions that the opposing player played for maybe 2 or 3 turns worth of mana. Instead you could have just played 2 or 3 other matches that didn't involve nonsense like that.
I was under the impression we were talking about chances of beating it. If we are talking about time spent playing, that's a different conversation. If that's your concern, then you might consider playing only face hunter and auto conceding against all you bad matchups. Although, if you're on a win streak (pre D5), then it's probably worth playing it out.
For me it's not a time crunch, if it takes a little longer to beat some decks then others, then so be it. My goal is to improve my play, have fun, and I ultimately hold the satisfaction of overcoming a tough opponent and winning an epic game higher then how fast I climb.
And I was playing Galalock. Plague of Flames is a hell of a card.
Ok, let me try another tack. How do you "beat" this card. Fundamentally, the idea in Hearthstone is to try to out value your opponent. Sometimes your opponent gets their value, and sometimes either through skill, strategy or luck you beat their value play. So my question is, what beats Libram of Hope? I can come up with exactly one card. Counterspell. For 3 mana, with proper luck/skill/timing you can counter his 4 or 5 mana spell and the Paladin player gets no value out of it. From a purely numerical standpoint, this is a slight win for the counterspeller. Of course it's a huge win when you consider how much value was denied the Paladin player but that's only a reflection on how unbelievably powerful Libram of Hope is. Every other counter mentioned in this thread, is a loss. If you sheep it, frog it, throw it back in his hand, poison it whatever, the Paladin player STILL got 8 healing out of the thing. Sure, it feels "great" to sheep his 8/8 monster minion for 4 mana, but not so great when you realize it only cost him 4 or 5 mana to bring it out AND it already healed him for 8 health. It's just an unbeatable value play. There is no beating that card. One of the strongest in the game. Maybe THE strongest.
And again, I'm not mad at the card or something at this point. I just made this thread in the first place to feel if anybody else has just come to the conclusion that the only appropriate value play against this card is to just concede? Sure I check the board state. And I've made it around the card for the win before. But if you're in the thick of a match and this comes out, your win percent just went to the single digits under most scenarios.
It would help to know the type of deck you typically run (sounds like aggro), because then your evaluation of the card would make sense.
The goal of HS isn't to out value your opponent, it's to reduce their health to zero. That can be done with value, or tempo, or otk, etc. Sometimes you can do that with as little as like seven or eight cards, no value necessary. Libram of Hope is surely in the upper echelon of value for what you pay. Based on the standard economy of the game, it's hard to match it. But there are other things that have to be taken into consideration, you cannot look at cards based on their numerical value potential alone. Like for a Priest to SW:D it, that's an efficient counter because in all likelihood the 8 healing is irrelevant to the Priests path to victory anyway, especially if the Priest Mindflayers it first. Or in a tempo context, if the 8/8 gets Blackjack Stunnered, then what, you've gained 8 health for potential 4 mana? That's not good value. In my game it was as easy as sacrificing one or two disposable imps with Plague of Flames. Sure he gained 8 health, but I was able to reestablish a board after my 1 mana Flames, and he's playing a deck with very limited reactive plays (pure, not broom).
I agree it's obviously a card that offers you a lot for what you pay for it. But there are many options for non face decks to overcome it. There is no way I've ever even come close to coming to the conclusion that the only appropriate action to take vs this card is to concede. That's just not how value works. Maybe I just Ray of Frost the thing for two turns waiting for him to overextend, and get a huge value swing with Reno. Now that 8 healing is looking pretty meager.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding exactly what you're trying to say.
Ah yes, no beating that except Polymorph, Hex, Sap, Death, Brittlebone Destroyer, Siphon Soul, Coerce, Barkstripper, Black Knight, Torrent, Fireball + 2 smol minions, Kill Command + a rusher and a smol minion, Freezing Trap, Misdirect, Ramming Speed, or any number of other cards that I can't think of rn.
Yep, definitely not one single way to beat an 8/8. I concede every time a mage drops one mana giant or a priest uses Mass Rez or rogue makes a big Edwin.
That works great! What do you do with next turn's 2x 4/5 taunt divine shield though? And milliom wisdoms on top just after that? And the 4mana x2 librams of hope again 3 turns later?
What in the world are you talking about? Libram of Hope can't be 4 mana until turn 7 at the earliest. If they still have all of their resources on turn 7 and you haven't forced them to use a single one, you're bad and deserve that loss.
A 4/5 taunt divine shield can be pinged and killed by a single chunky minion on t8.
And in your fantasy scenario where they have:
Attendant
Double Truthseeker
Double Hope
Double Wisdom
Double Devout
Liadrin
All by turn 10, assuming you draw a couple extra and have drawn through 15 cards by t10, has a probability of .08%, or will happen 8 times out of every 10k games.
Getting 9 or more of those cards is 1%.
Getting 8 or more is 6.5%.
Even just drawing into 7 or more is 16%.
You're trying to use something that happens once every 1500 games as an example of how it's broken. That's not how the game works.
Protip, if you let them dump both wisdoms into a minion early and then silence or poly it, then you get rid of 90% of their advantage. Even better if they drop Alura into Wisdom into Authority.
As a priest player I want to point out a few things.
First: Life gain is a stall tactic. As was pointed out - the purpose of the game is to get their HP to Zero. Gaining life without something to keep your life there or to defeat your opponent faster than you lose life, it's just attrition.
Second: Card Value, yes you want to get more value per mana you spend over your opponent, but there also comes skill. Sometime you have to take the value loss in order to advance your win condition. If taking out an 8/8 body and having to instead contend with 8 hp is a value loss for you then take it but work towards your win. The 8/8 body is more value than 8 hp considering the minion requires a spell/minion (sometimes 2-3) to get rid of it. where as HP requires one good turn going face or just out lasting your opponent and letting the hero power do it's work.
Third: There will always be a card or cards that make your life miserable when playing a specific deck, why do you think people hate on priest so much. Don't let it get to you, it's a game and you can't win them all. If you can't handle losing then don't play games that are competitive - even casually competitive.
You seem like an intelligent level headed person so I can imagine you've thought of this before, but this post makes you seem needy and are only looking for validation to feel like a victim.
Anybody else feel that way? Not being salty or calling for nerfs, I'm not enough of an expert on the game to do so. But I don't see any other option than to concede. It's an auto game ender. I mean, it's heal 8 8/8 body taunt with divine shield often played for 4 mana. There's no beating that, correct?
As someone who mains Paladin, I can tell you Libram of Hope is rarely a game ender. In most cases, it's purely a stall move, or something to me combo'd with things like Argent Braggart.
If I'm way down, this card may just give me another turn at life. The only time it's truly a game winner is if I've managed to get it down to 3 or less in cost, as then I can play two, then later play a Lady Liadrin two get those two back and play another in the same turn.
Even then, my opponent generally has some sort of counter. Whether it's their own high health/attack taunt minions, or various insta-kill spell cards.
Yes, it makes games last longer, but most games already take a long time at higher ranks. Whereas games in bronze take 5-10 minutes, most of my games in diamond last for 20-30 minutes (even when I'm not using Paladin, though face hunter games are still pretty quick).
As someone who mains Paladin, I can tell you Libram of Hope is rarely a game ender. In most cases, it's purely a stall move, or something to me combo'd with things like Argent Braggart.
If I'm way down, this card may just give me another turn at life. The only time it's truly a game winner is if I've managed to get it down to 3 or less in cost, as then I can play two, then later play a Lady Liadrin two get those two back and play another in the same turn.
Even then, my opponent generally has some sort of counter. Whether it's their own high health/attack taunt minions, or various insta-kill spell cards.
Yes, it makes games last longer, but most games already take a long time at higher ranks. Whereas games in bronze take 5-10 minutes, most of my games in diamond last for 20-30 minutes (even when I'm not using Paladin, though face hunter games are still pretty quick).
Every paladin I seem to face manages to cheat out a big 8/8 minion on turn 3/4 with High Abbess Alura which is impossible to deal playing as Druid, if the roles were reversed it would be instantly nerfed
Totally agree, honestly think Paladin the most obnoxious deck in the game at the moment, as a Druid it’s an auto concede and the cards that have been revealed look degenerate and stupid easy to pilot
Druid player calling Paladin obnoxious? Really?
Druid has the 7th highest win rate in the game right now, Paladin is 2nd only to Huntard, that alone should prove my point
Like Standard is the only format. Druid is currently battling Paladin for the top spot in Wild.
Also not for nothing, I remember at the beginning of the cycle when Paladin was completely useless. This game goes in cycles where a class gets their moment in the sun. It's currently Paladins turn. Not too long ago Druid was stomping people with ramp decks that churned out multiple fatties in one turn. I bet you were fine with the meta then.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Grammar is the difference between knowing your crap, and knowing you’re crap.
Totally agree, honestly think Paladin the most obnoxious deck in the game at the moment, as a Druid it’s an auto concede and the cards that have been revealed look degenerate and stupid easy to pilot
Druid player calling Paladin obnoxious? Really?
Druid has the 7th highest win rate in the game right now, Paladin is 2nd only to Huntard, that alone should prove my point
Like Standard is the only format. Druid is currently battling Paladin for the top spot in Wild.
Also not for nothing, I remember at the beginning of the cycle when Paladin was completely useless. This game goes in cycles where a class gets their moment in the sun. It's currently Paladins turn. Not too long ago Druid was stomping people with ramp decks that churned out multiple fatties in one turn. I bet you were fine with the meta then.
The difference is Druid always gets nerfed in standard, when was the last time you saw Hunter not being a tier 1 deck. it’s like Blizzard ignore power levels for specific classes whilst always targeting others
Idk what are you guys talking about. Whenever I pick pure paladin for laddering in standard, I'm getting sweeped by faster decks (rogues, druids, hunters and even by dh sometimes) because my starting hand is ALWAYS 9-9-6-5(or 4 if it's consecration/Allura) so I wonder where did that pick/winrate comes from... Sure libram of wisdom is a powerful card but you also have to play it in right time for not to get hexed/saped/whateveruwant.
Idk if we're able to speak about real paladin supremacy in both ladders (odd pally is ravaging in wild and conquered mostly by aggro druids) but I think that the current meta is pretty OK bcuz there's no Karazhan midrange shaman/gadgetzan pirate warriors or something really unbalanced like it was back in times.
(Just came up with an interesting conclusion: through all those nerfs druid still remains as playable class. What was happening with ol'good shaman? correct me if I'm wrong)
As Big Warrior I summon a 9/9 Taunt Divine Shield that resuming itself 8 times for only seven mana. An 8/8 Divine Shield heal 8 isn’t that scary.
Golden Rattlegore is the only thing keeps me going wanting to play this Mess as well, and including Golden Bulwark ofc which makes DH, Rogue and Hunter Smorc Netdecker Kids Ragequit so hard all the time ^^
But I'am afraid we'll have to take him out soon, once C'Thun and N'Zoth are back, as they are maybe more impactful.
Totally agree, honestly think Paladin the most obnoxious deck in the game at the moment, as a Druid it’s an auto concede and the cards that have been revealed look degenerate and stupid easy to pilot
Druid player calling Paladin obnoxious? Really?
Druid has the 7th highest win rate in the game right now, Paladin is 2nd only to Huntard, that alone should prove my point
Like Standard is the only format. Druid is currently battling Paladin for the top spot in Wild.
Also not for nothing, I remember at the beginning of the cycle when Paladin was completely useless. This game goes in cycles where a class gets their moment in the sun. It's currently Paladins turn. Not too long ago Druid was stomping people with ramp decks that churned out multiple fatties in one turn. I bet you were fine with the meta then.
The difference is Druid always gets nerfed in standard, when was the last time you saw Hunter not being a tier 1 deck. it’s like Blizzard ignore power levels for specific classes whilst always targeting others
When? How about when Demon Hunter debuted and relegated Hunter to essentially a tier 2/3 class? I was mad when Guardian Animals got nerfed too, but it was warranted. Just the same as when everyone got mad when Galakrond Shaman got nuked within a week of release. I don't see Libram of Hope as that oppressive. Unless you're talking a late game Lady Liandrin after it's been discounted to the max and they pop out two at once. Even then you still have options.
Well, sure there's partial answers if you high rolled into whatever you needed and things go exactly your way. But it's not just that it's a big minion. It also heals for 8. And only costs like 4 or 5 mana. And likely there's a second one in hand that's going to get played next turn. If it was just a big minion, it wouldn't be such a big deal. But when played, it's just a game ender. I can understand some cards being game enders. Rattlegore comes to mind as appropriate. But a 4 or 5 mana game ender? And it's absolutely worth auto conceding to this card. Your chance of winning unless your high roll response is ready to go is abysmal. Your time is better spent queueing up another match. Is there any other card in this game that's a bigger tempo move that comes out that early? Guardian Animals maybe, but it requires so much ramping and dead turns. Paladin can reduce the cost on this monster of a card by just doing stuff they want to do anyways. Just as an example, not calling for this, but if you completely removed the healing aspect of this card, it would still see 100% play. An 8/8 taunt divine shield minion for 4 or 5 mana even without the healing component is crazy strong.
This seems like a bazaare thing to say. It's so apparent in how untrue it is. Depends on the deck you're using. Just last week I beat a Paladin that managed to play 4 copies of Hope and I still won. So no, it would have been very foolish of me indeed to auto concede to the first one.
Would it have really been foolish though? Like you said, I guess it depends on deck type. I guess you were playing a priest deck when you dealt with that. But to win that match you had to grind through 32 health worth of hero healing, 4 divine shields and another 32 health worth of taunt minions that the opposing player played for maybe 2 or 3 turns worth of mana. Instead you could have just played 2 or 3 other matches that didn't involve nonsense like that.
I was under the impression we were talking about chances of beating it. If we are talking about time spent playing, that's a different conversation. If that's your concern, then you might consider playing only face hunter and auto conceding against all you bad matchups. Although, if you're on a win streak (pre D5), then it's probably worth playing it out.
For me it's not a time crunch, if it takes a little longer to beat some decks then others, then so be it. My goal is to improve my play, have fun, and I ultimately hold the satisfaction of overcoming a tough opponent and winning an epic game higher then how fast I climb.
And I was playing Galalock. Plague of Flames is a hell of a card.
Ok, let me try another tack. How do you "beat" this card. Fundamentally, the idea in Hearthstone is to try to out value your opponent. Sometimes your opponent gets their value, and sometimes either through skill, strategy or luck you beat their value play. So my question is, what beats Libram of Hope? I can come up with exactly one card. Counterspell. For 3 mana, with proper luck/skill/timing you can counter his 4 or 5 mana spell and the Paladin player gets no value out of it. From a purely numerical standpoint, this is a slight win for the counterspeller. Of course it's a huge win when you consider how much value was denied the Paladin player but that's only a reflection on how unbelievably powerful Libram of Hope is. Every other counter mentioned in this thread, is a loss. If you sheep it, frog it, throw it back in his hand, poison it whatever, the Paladin player STILL got 8 healing out of the thing. Sure, it feels "great" to sheep his 8/8 monster minion for 4 mana, but not so great when you realize it only cost him 4 or 5 mana to bring it out AND it already healed him for 8 health. It's just an unbeatable value play. There is no beating that card. One of the strongest in the game. Maybe THE strongest.
And again, I'm not mad at the card or something at this point. I just made this thread in the first place to feel if anybody else has just come to the conclusion that the only appropriate value play against this card is to just concede? Sure I check the board state. And I've made it around the card for the win before. But if you're in the thick of a match and this comes out, your win percent just went to the single digits under most scenarios.
Edwin VanCleef, the card that has stolen more games by t2/t3 than any other card in the history of HS probably, says hi...
It would help to know the type of deck you typically run (sounds like aggro), because then your evaluation of the card would make sense.
The goal of HS isn't to out value your opponent, it's to reduce their health to zero. That can be done with value, or tempo, or otk, etc. Sometimes you can do that with as little as like seven or eight cards, no value necessary. Libram of Hope is surely in the upper echelon of value for what you pay. Based on the standard economy of the game, it's hard to match it. But there are other things that have to be taken into consideration, you cannot look at cards based on their numerical value potential alone. Like for a Priest to SW:D it, that's an efficient counter because in all likelihood the 8 healing is irrelevant to the Priests path to victory anyway, especially if the Priest Mindflayers it first. Or in a tempo context, if the 8/8 gets Blackjack Stunnered, then what, you've gained 8 health for potential 4 mana? That's not good value. In my game it was as easy as sacrificing one or two disposable imps with Plague of Flames. Sure he gained 8 health, but I was able to reestablish a board after my 1 mana Flames, and he's playing a deck with very limited reactive plays (pure, not broom).
I agree it's obviously a card that offers you a lot for what you pay for it. But there are many options for non face decks to overcome it. There is no way I've ever even come close to coming to the conclusion that the only appropriate action to take vs this card is to concede. That's just not how value works. Maybe I just Ray of Frost the thing for two turns waiting for him to overextend, and get a huge value swing with Reno. Now that 8 healing is looking pretty meager.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding exactly what you're trying to say.
Play silas darkmoon. They feel shocked and it actually works in most of the matchups.
What in the world are you talking about? Libram of Hope can't be 4 mana until turn 7 at the earliest. If they still have all of their resources on turn 7 and you haven't forced them to use a single one, you're bad and deserve that loss.
A 4/5 taunt divine shield can be pinged and killed by a single chunky minion on t8.
And in your fantasy scenario where they have:
Attendant
Double Truthseeker
Double Hope
Double Wisdom
Double Devout
Liadrin
All by turn 10, assuming you draw a couple extra and have drawn through 15 cards by t10, has a probability of .08%, or will happen 8 times out of every 10k games.
Getting 9 or more of those cards is 1%.
Getting 8 or more is 6.5%.
Even just drawing into 7 or more is 16%.
You're trying to use something that happens once every 1500 games as an example of how it's broken. That's not how the game works.
Protip, if you let them dump both wisdoms into a minion early and then silence or poly it, then you get rid of 90% of their advantage. Even better if they drop Alura into Wisdom into Authority.
As a priest player I want to point out a few things.
First: Life gain is a stall tactic. As was pointed out - the purpose of the game is to get their HP to Zero. Gaining life without something to keep your life there or to defeat your opponent faster than you lose life, it's just attrition.
Second: Card Value, yes you want to get more value per mana you spend over your opponent, but there also comes skill. Sometime you have to take the value loss in order to advance your win condition. If taking out an 8/8 body and having to instead contend with 8 hp is a value loss for you then take it but work towards your win. The 8/8 body is more value than 8 hp considering the minion requires a spell/minion (sometimes 2-3) to get rid of it. where as HP requires one good turn going face or just out lasting your opponent and letting the hero power do it's work.
Third: There will always be a card or cards that make your life miserable when playing a specific deck, why do you think people hate on priest so much. Don't let it get to you, it's a game and you can't win them all. If you can't handle losing then don't play games that are competitive - even casually competitive.
You seem like an intelligent level headed person so I can imagine you've thought of this before, but this post makes you seem needy and are only looking for validation to feel like a victim.
Cute, ineffective, but cute.
Now let me tell you WHATS PATHETIC
+
As someone who mains Paladin, I can tell you Libram of Hope is rarely a game ender. In most cases, it's purely a stall move, or something to me combo'd with things like Argent Braggart.
If I'm way down, this card may just give me another turn at life. The only time it's truly a game winner is if I've managed to get it down to 3 or less in cost, as then I can play two, then later play a Lady Liadrin two get those two back and play another in the same turn.
Even then, my opponent generally has some sort of counter. Whether it's their own high health/attack taunt minions, or various insta-kill spell cards.
Yes, it makes games last longer, but most games already take a long time at higher ranks. Whereas games in bronze take 5-10 minutes, most of my games in diamond last for 20-30 minutes (even when I'm not using Paladin, though face hunter games are still pretty quick).
Every paladin I seem to face manages to cheat out a big 8/8 minion on turn 3/4 with High Abbess Alura which is impossible to deal playing as Druid, if the roles were reversed it would be instantly nerfed
Like Standard is the only format. Druid is currently battling Paladin for the top spot in Wild.
Also not for nothing, I remember at the beginning of the cycle when Paladin was completely useless. This game goes in cycles where a class gets their moment in the sun. It's currently Paladins turn. Not too long ago Druid was stomping people with ramp decks that churned out multiple fatties in one turn. I bet you were fine with the meta then.
Grammar is the difference between knowing your crap, and knowing you’re crap.
A .gif is worth a thousand words.
The difference is Druid always gets nerfed in standard, when was the last time you saw Hunter not being a tier 1 deck. it’s like Blizzard ignore power levels for specific classes whilst always targeting others
Idk what are you guys talking about. Whenever I pick pure paladin for laddering in standard, I'm getting sweeped by faster decks (rogues, druids, hunters and even by dh sometimes) because my starting hand is ALWAYS 9-9-6-5(or 4 if it's consecration/Allura) so I wonder where did that pick/winrate comes from... Sure libram of wisdom is a powerful card but you also have to play it in right time for not to get hexed/saped/whateveruwant.
Idk if we're able to speak about real paladin supremacy in both ladders (odd pally is ravaging in wild and conquered mostly by aggro druids) but I think that the current meta is pretty OK bcuz there's no Karazhan midrange shaman/gadgetzan pirate warriors or something really unbalanced like it was back in times.
(Just came up with an interesting conclusion: through all those nerfs druid still remains as playable class. What was happening with ol'good shaman? correct me if I'm wrong)
As Big Warrior I summon a 9/9 Taunt Divine Shield that resuming itself 8 times for only seven mana. An 8/8 Divine Shield heal 8 isn’t that scary.
Golden Rattlegore is the only thing keeps me going wanting to play this Mess as well, and including Golden Bulwark ofc which makes DH, Rogue and Hunter Smorc Netdecker Kids Ragequit so hard all the time ^^
But I'am afraid we'll have to take him out soon, once C'Thun and N'Zoth are back, as they are maybe more impactful.
I usually main Priest. Never was bothered much by Libram of Hope. I just kill, copy, or steal it.
Galavant Animation
When? How about when Demon Hunter debuted and relegated Hunter to essentially a tier 2/3 class? I was mad when Guardian Animals got nerfed too, but it was warranted. Just the same as when everyone got mad when Galakrond Shaman got nuked within a week of release. I don't see Libram of Hope as that oppressive. Unless you're talking a late game Lady Liandrin after it's been discounted to the max and they pop out two at once. Even then you still have options.
Grammar is the difference between knowing your crap, and knowing you’re crap.
A .gif is worth a thousand words.