Over use of "cringe" is crin.... super fucking lame. Keep that shit on the reddit teen boards where it belongs.
Cringe is a reddit-born term? Damn, I never knew. I'll make sure to use a word that has been in existence for decades only on a website that's barely been around for 1.
I find that, yes, resurrect cards are unhealthy for the game. Label this as a salt thread if you want, but I want to share my opinion and see what others think. Having an opinion about the game's design and having a civil discussion about why or why not the opinion is valid is not being salty. It's having an opinion. Which is fine, at least outside of the internet.
So, what's the big deal? They've always been a thing. Well, there's a simple answer to this. Once you've dealt with a threat, the threat should remain dealt with. The issue here is that, often for a fraction of the cost, you can resurrect a creature, or even multiple. When someone gets Catrina Muerte, Obsidian Statue, and Ragnaros the Firelord from a mass resurrection, they're getting the value of 25 mana from a 9-mana card. This isn't even considering Archmage Vargoth.
See, in MTG, there's a term for this - it's called cheating things out. And it's not something I see many people who are happy about. The best deck in MTG standard is currently one revolving around cheating out big things. And it's degenerate. Hearthstone follows this in a similar vein, with cards like Voidcaller, Eternal Servitude, and Archmage Vargoth. Simply put, you're getting more value from something than you should. This is why, as fun as cards like Voidcaller and Vargoth are to play, they're annoying to play against. That's the crux of the issue, which I'll get into in a bit.
Another issue is that when you've dealt with a threat, the threat should be gone. That's part of how the game works. I play Fel Lord Betrug and you Naturalize him? It should end there. But then, I play Bloodreaver Gul'dan! I get him back, along with two Voidlords, Mal'ganis, and a few imps. That's 29 mana, not even including the imps. So, for 10 mana, I not only get 29 mana worth of cards, but they're things that were already killed by the opponent. Things that are dead should stay dead.
I find this incredibly unhealthy for the game, and while the above reasons play a part, I think they're just what cause the true issue. It's not fun to play against resurrect cards. When your opponent stalls with Convincing Infiltrators for 3 turns, destroying your board, and summoning a total of 5, that's the opposite of fun. When an opponent plays Bloodreaver Gul'dan, bringing back everything you worked so hard to kill? That's not fun.
Call me salty if you will but I think this is a genuine issue. If you want to be civil and disagree with me properly, please tell me why! I'm curious what others think - after all, this is a forum. A place for discussion.
This is such a cringe read. Your entire first paragraph is literally just you trying to stifle responses and claim you aren't salty, and it comes across incredibly pathetic. And then, you for whatever reason deemed it necessary to make your final paragraph THE EXACT SAME THING. Let me tell you something. If you dedicate that much effort trying to claim you're something you aren't, you definitely are.
That being said. The only things that are unhealthy are those which have no counterplay. Rez has counterplay, and not just for mage and shaman (hex, sheep). If you're playing priest THAT much, tech in any of the minion options that spawn useless 1/1s for both players or just the opponent.
But again, Jesus Christ with half of your post defending saltiness. This is the cringiest read in a long while.
So me defending myself on a forum that accuses any complaints or opinions of being salt is bad? I'm sorry, but I'm just trying to defend myself. Didn't realize you're not allowed to do that on the internet anymore, either.
There is counterplay for SOME of the stuff. But you have to gimp yourself in order to get that counterplay most of the time. Playing Mass Dispel, Silence, and Spellbreaker against SN1P-SN4P warlock could have worked to some extent before the nerf, but really? Can you expect people to do that? And, I'm not talking about just priest. Cards like Bloodreaver Gul'dan and N'Zoth are big offenders, too.
I don't understand how it's fun to consistently have to remove threats turn after turn, when they're ones you already dealt with.
That being said, there is some merit for teching against those decks, yet when it's targeted resurrections (a la eternal servitude, N'Zoth, Gul'dan) you can't do much. It'd be nice if we had more tech against this kind of thing. For now, though.... guess I get to have fun dealing with the same creature 7 times in a row?
Lol the idiot calling OP cringe. It was a nicely worded thread. Yes he complains but he uses arguments and valid ones at that. Nobody asked for a troll.
I second the unfun part. Powerful deathrattles combined with resurrection AND reborn is cancerous gameplay. Either stop the deathrattles or the reborn effect as some deathrattles are just too powerful to get off that many copies of.
it is too hard winning on board against a horde of infiltrators. Winning on board should always be viable with counters such as twisting nether, brawl, consecration, plague of death, frost nova. But nothing sticks while infiltrators swarm the board with reborn while waterbearers heal the priest and Muerte replenishes broken deathrattles non stop
I find that, yes, resurrect cards are unhealthy for the game. Label this as a salt thread if you want, but I want to share my opinion and see what others think. Having an opinion about the game's design and having a civil discussion about why or why not the opinion is valid is not being salty. It's having an opinion. Which is fine, at least outside of the internet.
So, what's the big deal? They've always been a thing. Well, there's a simple answer to this. Once you've dealt with a threat, the threat should remain dealt with. The issue here is that, often for a fraction of the cost, you can resurrect a creature, or even multiple. When someone gets Catrina Muerte, Obsidian Statue, and Ragnaros the Firelord from a mass resurrection, they're getting the value of 25 mana from a 9-mana card. This isn't even considering Archmage Vargoth.
See, in MTG, there's a term for this - it's called cheating things out. And it's not something I see many people who are happy about. The best deck in MTG standard is currently one revolving around cheating out big things. And it's degenerate. Hearthstone follows this in a similar vein, with cards like Voidcaller, Eternal Servitude, and Archmage Vargoth. Simply put, you're getting more value from something than you should. This is why, as fun as cards like Voidcaller and Vargoth are to play, they're annoying to play against. That's the crux of the issue, which I'll get into in a bit.
Another issue is that when you've dealt with a threat, the threat should be gone. That's part of how the game works. I play Fel Lord Betrug and you Naturalize him? It should end there. But then, I play Bloodreaver Gul'dan! I get him back, along with two Voidlords, Mal'ganis, and a few imps. That's 29 mana, not even including the imps. So, for 10 mana, I not only get 29 mana worth of cards, but they're things that were already killed by the opponent. Things that are dead should stay dead.
I find this incredibly unhealthy for the game, and while the above reasons play a part, I think they're just what cause the true issue. It's not fun to play against resurrect cards. When your opponent stalls with Convincing Infiltrators for 3 turns, destroying your board, and summoning a total of 5, that's the opposite of fun. When an opponent plays Bloodreaver Gul'dan, bringing back everything you worked so hard to kill? That's not fun.
Call me salty if you will but I think this is a genuine issue. If you want to be civil and disagree with me properly, please tell me why! I'm curious what others think - after all, this is a forum. A place for discussion.
This is such a cringe read. Your entire first paragraph is literally just you trying to stifle responses and claim you aren't salty, and it comes across incredibly pathetic. And then, you for whatever reason deemed it necessary to make your final paragraph THE EXACT SAME THING. Let me tell you something. If you dedicate that much effort trying to claim you're something you aren't, you definitely are.
That being said. The only things that are unhealthy are those which have no counterplay. Rez has counterplay, and not just for mage and shaman (hex, sheep). If you're playing priest THAT much, tech in any of the minion options that spawn useless 1/1s for both players or just the opponent.
But again, Jesus Christ with half of your post defending saltiness. This is the cringiest read in a long while.
So me defending myself on a forum that accuses any complaints or opinions of being salt is bad? I'm sorry, but I'm just trying to defend myself. Didn't realize you're not allowed to do that on the internet anymore, either.
There is counterplay for SOME of the stuff. But you have to gimp yourself in order to get that counterplay most of the time. Playing Mass Dispel, Silence, and Spellbreaker against SN1P-SN4P warlock could have worked to some extent before the nerf, but really? Can you expect people to do that? And, I'm not talking about just priest. Cards like Bloodreaver Gul'dan and N'Zoth are big offenders, too.
I don't understand how it's fun to consistently have to remove threats turn after turn, when they're ones you already dealt with.
That being said, there is some merit for teching against those decks, yet when it's targeted resurrections (a la eternal servitude, N'Zoth, Gul'dan) you can't do much. It'd be nice if we had more tech against this kind of thing. For now, though.... guess I get to have fun dealing with the same creature 7 times in a row?
Yes I can expect people to tech. Climbing to legend is more than just being "good" at playing the cards. It's about recognizing your meta, and adapting to it. If there's a lot of priest at your rank, tech your current deck or switch decks.
What you're claiming is the equivalent of playing face hunter over and over even though you're playing control warrior 80% of your games. You can't just do that and then complain that warrior is too strong because of armor gain.
Lol the idiot calling OP cringe. It was a nicely worded thread. Yes he complains but he uses arguments and valid ones at that. Nobody asked for a troll.
Yeah, there is nothing cringe about the opening post. This dude (sPacEtiMe19) has to be kidding... -.-
For now, though.... guess I get to have fun dealing with the same creature 7 times in a row?
So the problem is just seeing the same minion multiple times? Then your issue is much bigger than ressurrection mechanics, as with the amount of copying and discoveries available right now you're bound to see multiples not only of the same minion but of the same spells as well.
What about Pogo-Rogue then? :D Would it be unfun to deal with the 12th Pogo at +25+25?
Would it be different if I just shuffled 10x of the same creature back in the deck and played/cheated it again and again or discovered the same creature much more than the 2 slots they can have in the deck?
With the amount of copy and discovery available right now not only minions but multiple same spells can also be found. Played against a Mage that between Magic Tricks, Arcane Breaths and Cyclones got 5 Frost Novas.
I don't know about Wild, but in Standard there's very little to complain about actual Res Priest. They don't have any discovers or infinite potential. The deck is very limited. One Psychopomp, one Catrena, two Mass Ress and that's it, 4 resses maximum, with 3 being very expensive and all on pure disruptable RNG. No Shadow Essence, Shadow Visions, Eternal Servitude.
Perhaps some of you would have more "fun" playing against this deck if you learned how to counter it. One way to beat Quest Priest is to build a board and DON'T attack right away. Most of the time the Quest Priests don't have any early game other than healing, so if you wait until you can deal a larger amount of damage in a turn you can stall out their plan and rush them down.
Hey, after reading your post I find something's missing, which is your defition of unhealthy. If I'm right, and using your analogy with mtg, cards aren't supposed to do way more than their mana suggests they should and resurrecting "25 mana" for the price of 9 is obviously a case of doing more than they should.
My opinion on this is that hearthstone, and card games in general, mtg if you will, ain't that simple. Cards usually don't have an objective power level, it depends on the meta, the answers that are out there and even on deck building
When people try to make a statement on how broken a card is because of the immense value or mana that it cheats and how unfair that is I can't help myself but to use the same argument over and over again:
I don't think so, the way you are trying to evaluate how broken of a card Mass Resurrection is doesn't seem to fit how cards work and I also don't agree that the philosofy of "once you dealt with something it shouldn't come back" why not?
I hate playing against priest so much. It may not be broken but I find it so triggering. I'd rather be aggro'ed down by face hunter or pirate warrior than be beaten by priest. I currently play shaman for silence and hex. I'm even considering crafting plague murlocs just to ruin their res pool.
Despite disagreeing with OP, it is time for Hearthstone to implement a graveyard zone where player could interact with it, things are starting to get out of hand.
Sorry but whoever think that novadays priest is heathy shoud be considered sick and go for retire. There should never be a case where one thing define all universe, and that what Ress Priest is.
I know that many people found answer for this OP! deck but those answers are pityfull. I myself play midrange dragon hunter to couter priest but this is not the case.
Every year, every expansion, and now every month gave us another sick brainless decks.
Conclusion. There is no such a thing like creativity in this CARD GAME. The more simple YOUR DECK IS the better !!
Good luck everyone!
P.S> The answer for Aggro is simple, the answer for deck that answers 90% is imposible in 90%
Despite disagreeing with OP, it is time for Hearthstone to implement a graveyard zone where player could interact with it, things are starting to get out of hand.
I wouldn't mind that actually, but then how players would interact with a graveyard other than bringing back stuff (which is the source of complaining) and removing stuff that only maybe 2 classes can actually work with? It would be too much of a hassle actually for almost minimal impact in a low sample of games, and only if meta cards allow for such an archetype. As an example, Priest and Warlock to a lesser extent didn't get a single card in Descent of Dragons that supports such archetype.
Despite disagreeing with OP, it is time for Hearthstone to implement a graveyard zone where player could interact with it, things are starting to get out of hand.
I wouldn't mind that actually, but then how players would interact with a graveyard other than bringing back stuff (which is the source of complaining) and removing stuff that only maybe 2 classes can actually work with? It would be too much of a hassle actually for almost minimal impact in a low sample of games, and only if meta cards allow for such an archetype. As an example, Priest and Warlock to a lesser extent didn't get a single card in Descent of Dragons that supports such archetype.
It would make viable to keep track of stuff played throughout the game and expand card design with GY interaction other than ressurect.
Sorry but whoever think that novadays priest is heathy shoud be considered sick and go for retire. There should never be a case where one thing define all universe, and that what Ress Priest is.
I know that many people found answer for this OP! deck but those answers are pityfull. I myself play midrange dragon hunter to couter priest but this is not the case.
Every year, every expansion, and now every month gave us another sick brainless decks.
Conclusion. There is no such a thing like creativity in this CARD GAME. The more simple YOUR DECK IS the better !!
Good luck everyone!
P.S> The answer for Aggro is simple, the answer for deck that answers 90% is imposible in 90%
Peace!
then play the 10%...play a shaman deck with albatross and spam frogs. You will win to res priest... oh wait... you will lose with other decks and come here to complain again... mmm so yeah, better for you to try another CARD GAME
I think current res priest is okay. It runs a lot of low tempo cards like Khartut and doesn't really have a great win condition other than spamming res effects.
I'm not sure how you fix it, because I don't think mass res is really a problematic card. Neither is Psycho-pomp or Catarina Muerte. You could maybe tone them down, but that wouldn't make the deck any less unfun to play against, and would just make a good priest deck worse.
The rez mechanic only becomes unhealthy when there are lots of supporting cards to sustain your life total. Whether through board wipes or healing cards. Taunt and death rattle cards make rez cards that much better because you are getting multiple bonuses without the ability to put 5 copies of a card in your deck. You get that by substituting rez cards and hoping you get 'extra' copies of the same death rattle minion.
So are there good supporting cards for Priest? Yes. They have healing, board clears and good value minions that generate more cards like Dragons.
The priest deck is a control deck with the ability to keep annoying minions on the board. Transform or silence will help in most situations. If you DO find Priest to be an issue, the question is this:
How does the Priest beat you? Can you throw in Silence cards in your deck? What is your deck designed to do, and specifically what turn does your deck typically try to win on?
If your answer is your deck is trying to grind the game out and win on turn 10+, you will lose against rez priest. Their minions are better value and once the quest is completed will be out of reach of killing them with your minions.
If you are trying to go face and go aggro, then where do you find yourself losing? Maybe adding silence or weapons will help?
So to answer the original question....Yes, I do believe Rez is unhealthly IF the tools exist to support it AND there are no counter play tech cards. There are both right now in Standard. But also ask yourself....what is your deck trying to do to win? Maybe ask for advice on how to beat Rez Priest with your current deck and provide a decklist?
Then you can get an idea if your deck can even beat Priest in the first place. For example, my Druid Quest deck with no OTK elements will never beat Priest. How can I improve that if I find I am facing Priest after Priest? Add an OTK element to the deck. Or realize my win rate is terrible against Priest and concede if it appears you cannot rush them down quick enough.
BTW, I don't know for sure the win rate percentages of Druid versus Priest, so if you know those, let me know.
Looking at HSReplay you will notice how many aggro decks are Tier 1 & 2. The only effective control deck right now that can counter this aggressive meta is Quest Resurrect Priest. Since there are so many face hunters, pirate warriors etc.. what did you honestly expect?
This is another Rocks thinks Paper is OP threads. There are a thousand things that you can tech to beat a rez priest, especially in wild.
I'm going to help. Tinkmaster, Plague of Murlocs, Polymorph, Devolve, Hex are just a few of the many tools to help you beat them. The easy answer is you destroy their rez pool and will never have a problem with the deck or you can chose a heavy aggro deck and just smorc them down before they have a chance to get big minions out.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Cringe is a reddit-born term? Damn, I never knew. I'll make sure to use a word that has been in existence for decades only on a website that's barely been around for 1.
So me defending myself on a forum that accuses any complaints or opinions of being salt is bad? I'm sorry, but I'm just trying to defend myself. Didn't realize you're not allowed to do that on the internet anymore, either.
There is counterplay for SOME of the stuff. But you have to gimp yourself in order to get that counterplay most of the time. Playing Mass Dispel, Silence, and Spellbreaker against SN1P-SN4P warlock could have worked to some extent before the nerf, but really? Can you expect people to do that? And, I'm not talking about just priest. Cards like Bloodreaver Gul'dan and N'Zoth are big offenders, too.
I don't understand how it's fun to consistently have to remove threats turn after turn, when they're ones you already dealt with.
That being said, there is some merit for teching against those decks, yet when it's targeted resurrections (a la eternal servitude, N'Zoth, Gul'dan) you can't do much. It'd be nice if we had more tech against this kind of thing. For now, though.... guess I get to have fun dealing with the same creature 7 times in a row?
Lol the idiot calling OP cringe. It was a nicely worded thread. Yes he complains but he uses arguments and valid ones at that. Nobody asked for a troll.
I second the unfun part. Powerful deathrattles combined with resurrection AND reborn is cancerous gameplay. Either stop the deathrattles or the reborn effect as some deathrattles are just too powerful to get off that many copies of.
it is too hard winning on board against a horde of infiltrators. Winning on board should always be viable with counters such as twisting nether, brawl, consecration, plague of death, frost nova. But nothing sticks while infiltrators swarm the board with reborn while waterbearers heal the priest and Muerte replenishes broken deathrattles non stop
Yes I can expect people to tech. Climbing to legend is more than just being "good" at playing the cards. It's about recognizing your meta, and adapting to it. If there's a lot of priest at your rank, tech your current deck or switch decks.
What you're claiming is the equivalent of playing face hunter over and over even though you're playing control warrior 80% of your games. You can't just do that and then complain that warrior is too strong because of armor gain.
You need to adapt, not complain.
Yeah, there is nothing cringe about the opening post. This dude (sPacEtiMe19) has to be kidding... -.-
So the problem is just seeing the same minion multiple times? Then your issue is much bigger than ressurrection mechanics, as with the amount of copying and discoveries available right now you're bound to see multiples not only of the same minion but of the same spells as well.
What about Pogo-Rogue then? :D Would it be unfun to deal with the 12th Pogo at +25+25?
Would it be different if I just shuffled 10x of the same creature back in the deck and played/cheated it again and again or discovered the same creature much more than the 2 slots they can have in the deck?
With the amount of copy and discovery available right now not only minions but multiple same spells can also be found. Played against a Mage that between Magic Tricks, Arcane Breaths and Cyclones got 5 Frost Novas.
I don't know about Wild, but in Standard there's very little to complain about actual Res Priest. They don't have any discovers or infinite potential. The deck is very limited. One Psychopomp, one Catrena, two Mass Ress and that's it, 4 resses maximum, with 3 being very expensive and all on pure disruptable RNG. No Shadow Essence, Shadow Visions, Eternal Servitude.
Perhaps some of you would have more "fun" playing against this deck if you learned how to counter it. One way to beat Quest Priest is to build a board and DON'T attack right away. Most of the time the Quest Priests don't have any early game other than healing, so if you wait until you can deal a larger amount of damage in a turn you can stall out their plan and rush them down.
Hey, after reading your post I find something's missing, which is your defition of unhealthy. If I'm right, and using your analogy with mtg, cards aren't supposed to do way more than their mana suggests they should and resurrecting "25 mana" for the price of 9 is obviously a case of doing more than they should.
My opinion on this is that hearthstone, and card games in general, mtg if you will, ain't that simple. Cards usually don't have an objective power level, it depends on the meta, the answers that are out there and even on deck building
When people try to make a statement on how broken a card is because of the immense value or mana that it cheats and how unfair that is I can't help myself but to use the same argument over and over again:
If I DOOM! your 25 mana value Mass Resurrection is DOOM! worth ~28 mana? Is it broken? Unhealthy? Unfair? And what if I use Cataclysm?
I don't think so, the way you are trying to evaluate how broken of a card Mass Resurrection is doesn't seem to fit how cards work and I also don't agree that the philosofy of "once you dealt with something it shouldn't come back" why not?
I hate playing against priest so much. It may not be broken but I find it so triggering. I'd rather be aggro'ed down by face hunter or pirate warrior than be beaten by priest. I currently play shaman for silence and hex. I'm even considering crafting plague murlocs just to ruin their res pool.
I prefer facing a res priest than a retarded face hunter.
Despite disagreeing with OP, it is time for Hearthstone to implement a graveyard zone where player could interact with it, things are starting to get out of hand.
Hello Retards.
Sorry but whoever think that novadays priest is heathy shoud be considered sick and go for retire. There should never be a case where one thing define all universe, and that what Ress Priest is.
I know that many people found answer for this OP! deck but those answers are pityfull. I myself play midrange dragon hunter to couter priest but this is not the case.
Every year, every expansion, and now every month gave us another sick brainless decks.
Conclusion.
There is no such a thing like creativity in this CARD GAME. The more simple YOUR DECK IS the better !!
Good luck everyone!
P.S> The answer for Aggro is simple, the answer for deck that answers 90% is imposible in 90%
Peace!
I wouldn't mind that actually, but then how players would interact with a graveyard other than bringing back stuff (which is the source of complaining) and removing stuff that only maybe 2 classes can actually work with? It would be too much of a hassle actually for almost minimal impact in a low sample of games, and only if meta cards allow for such an archetype. As an example, Priest and Warlock to a lesser extent didn't get a single card in Descent of Dragons that supports such archetype.
It would make viable to keep track of stuff played throughout the game and expand card design with GY interaction other than ressurect.
then play the 10%...play a shaman deck with albatross and spam frogs. You will win to res priest... oh wait... you will lose with other decks and come here to complain again... mmm so yeah, better for you to try another CARD GAME
I think current res priest is okay. It runs a lot of low tempo cards like Khartut and doesn't really have a great win condition other than spamming res effects.
I'm not sure how you fix it, because I don't think mass res is really a problematic card. Neither is Psycho-pomp or Catarina Muerte. You could maybe tone them down, but that wouldn't make the deck any less unfun to play against, and would just make a good priest deck worse.
Well, since almost everything is getting nerfed/slowed, I guess they could pump Mass Ress to 10 mana for one more turn of vulnerability, I guess.
The rez mechanic only becomes unhealthy when there are lots of supporting cards to sustain your life total. Whether through board wipes or healing cards. Taunt and death rattle cards make rez cards that much better because you are getting multiple bonuses without the ability to put 5 copies of a card in your deck. You get that by substituting rez cards and hoping you get 'extra' copies of the same death rattle minion.
So are there good supporting cards for Priest? Yes. They have healing, board clears and good value minions that generate more cards like Dragons.
The priest deck is a control deck with the ability to keep annoying minions on the board. Transform or silence will help in most situations. If you DO find Priest to be an issue, the question is this:
How does the Priest beat you? Can you throw in Silence cards in your deck? What is your deck designed to do, and specifically what turn does your deck typically try to win on?
If your answer is your deck is trying to grind the game out and win on turn 10+, you will lose against rez priest. Their minions are better value and once the quest is completed will be out of reach of killing them with your minions.
If you are trying to go face and go aggro, then where do you find yourself losing? Maybe adding silence or weapons will help?
So to answer the original question....Yes, I do believe Rez is unhealthly IF the tools exist to support it AND there are no counter play tech cards. There are both right now in Standard. But also ask yourself....what is your deck trying to do to win? Maybe ask for advice on how to beat Rez Priest with your current deck and provide a decklist?
Then you can get an idea if your deck can even beat Priest in the first place. For example, my Druid Quest deck with no OTK elements will never beat Priest. How can I improve that if I find I am facing Priest after Priest? Add an OTK element to the deck. Or realize my win rate is terrible against Priest and concede if it appears you cannot rush them down quick enough.
BTW, I don't know for sure the win rate percentages of Druid versus Priest, so if you know those, let me know.
Looking at HSReplay you will notice how many aggro decks are Tier 1 & 2. The only effective control deck right now that can counter this aggressive meta is Quest Resurrect Priest. Since there are so many face hunters, pirate warriors etc.. what did you honestly expect?
This is another Rocks thinks Paper is OP threads. There are a thousand things that you can tech to beat a rez priest, especially in wild.
I'm going to help. Tinkmaster, Plague of Murlocs, Polymorph, Devolve, Hex are just a few of the many tools to help you beat them. The easy answer is you destroy their rez pool and will never have a problem with the deck or you can chose a heavy aggro deck and just smorc them down before they have a chance to get big minions out.