So I'm trying to work on an Undatakah + Recurring Villain + Immortal Prelate Paladin Deck, and I think there is a full-fledged bug with the way these cards work together. Recurring Villain's deathrattle reads "if this minion has 4 or more attack, resummon it." When Recurring Villain dies, it resummons with the same deathrattle text. This is not the case for an Undatakah that has copied Recurring Villain's deathrattle. It just resummons as a vanilla 8/5. This can't be right. If the deathrattle that is copied is "if this minion has 4 or more attack, resummon it," Da Undatakah should always meet that condition (Barring attack debuffs like shrink ray or aldor peacekeeper or something), so I'm calling this a bug. Am I missing something? It may seem small, but having played quite a few games with this deck, I genuinely think it would be a significant buff to the deck to fix this.
The keeping buffs idea is from the prelates deathrattle. If the villains goes off first the prelate will not go off. The undertakers rattles all come from the battlecry, otherwise it’s a vanilla 8/5. No battlecry, no rattles.
Right, and my mistake for even including the prelate in this discussion at all, as it is unnecessarily confusing. So imagine a deck with exactly one deathrattle card: Recurring Villain. Then imagine that I play Recurring Villain and it dies with 3 attack, failing to trigger its deathrattle. I then play Da Undatakah. Its Battlecry copies the Recurring Villain's deathrattle (since Da Undatakah copies deathrattles that never trigger and even silenced deathrattles), so it now should have a deathrattle that reads "If this minion has 4 or more attack, resummon it." So now, unless Da Undatakah is silenced or has its attack reduced below 4, it should resummon with the exact same deathrattle text, the same way that Recurring Villain does. Because Da Undatakah naturally has more than 4 attack (8), if it gets a deathrattle that resummons it if it has more than 4 attack, it should always resummon, right?
IT WON'T SUMMON WITH A DEATHRATTLE BECAUSE HE GETS HIS DEATHRATTLES WITH A BATTLE CRY, WHICH DON'T TRIGGER ON SUMKON. THE SAME WAY RECURRING VILLAIN DOES'T KEEP BUFFS AFTER BEING RESUMMONED. If you want a never dying taunt minion, do Unratakah with immortal prelate and silver vanguard and give Undatakah taunt via anything.
Yea. Im getting it , but now I'm pretty sure that the issue has nothing to do with battlecries versus summons versus original text, as you suggest. I think the issue is actually about the terms "gain" and "copy." For example, Faceless Manipulator's effect is a battlecry, like Da Undatakah (or Seeping Oozeling, for another relevant example), but because it says "copy" it can gain permanent effects (e.g. Lucentbark). Faceless Manipulator could easily read "gain text (or whatever term makes sense) of target minion," in which case it would perform resummon deathrattle effects only once, like Da Undatakah in this case. I would have to go through a lot of cards to make sure this is all consistent (Gloop Sprayer, Zerek, Redemption, and so on [this also opens up questions of "resurrect" versus "return to life" versus "resummon" versus "summon" and so on, all of which appear on cards and do sometimes identical and sometimes different things]), but I think that what were actually talking about is the difference between "gain" and "copy." Thoughts?
You are not getting it. The text could basically read: "Deathrattle: If this minion has 4 or more attack resummon this minion".
Thus it summons the basic form of the minion. In this case Recurring Villian with a deathrattle as it's deathrattle minion pr default. The Undertakah is a battlecry minion pr default, and won't keep the deathrattle.
It makes sense. I played with a deck that was based around Recurring Villian, Zerek and Da Undertakah at the start of the expansion, and Da Undertakah was not a permanent thread but rather a: "Kill this dude and deal with a board of 8/5's".
Right, but what I'm asking at this point is, "do you think that if Da Undatakah read 'copy the deathrattle effects of three friendly minions that died this game' (instead of "gain the deathrattle effects...") it would work like I originally thought?"
If you buff Recurring Villain with a +1/+1, should the resummoned minion retain the buff? if the answer is not why should Da Undatakah retain the deathrattle?
It was explained four times. My answer was as direct and clear as possible. Whenever in doubt, just read my post again. It's that simple. If I raw summon undatakah from my deck it will be a vanilla 8/5 because battlecry activates on PLAY, not summon. It really is that simple.
Yea but no, because the same is true of Faceless Manipulator (a "raw summoned" Faceless Manipulator is a 5 Mana 4/4). The difference in this case isnt between "battlecry" and "summon," it's between "gain" and "copy." That is, both Faceless Manipulator and Undatakah have battlecry (as opposed to summon) effects, but are different. That difference just has to be attributed to a difference between "gain" and "copy."
Faceless manupulator becomes a copy of another minion (you after playing it you can't distinguish between the original minion and the copied one), Da Undatakah just gets the deathrattle of a minion, he still remains himself
Right, but what I'm asking at this point is, "do you think that if Da Undatakah read 'copy the deathrattle effects of three friendly minions that died this game' (instead of "gain the deathrattle effects...") it would work like I originally thought?"
I know it won't. Listen to what I'm saying. I'm offering a hypothetical. If the text of Da Undatakah read "Copy the deathrattle effects of three friendly minions that died this game" instead of what it actually says "gain...," then would it go infinite with Recurring Villain? It's not complicated: I think things change a lot if you replace the word "gain" in the text of Da Undatakah with the word "copy." Am I wrong?
In short, no it would not. The reason they use copy and not gain on Faceless is that the card text is a lot simpler instead of needing to specify literally everything (stats, effects, name, mana cost). So the effect of gain and copy are the same, but the example of Faceless Manipulator is different.
I know it won't. Listen to what I'm saying. I'm offering a hypothetical. If the text of Da Undatakah read "Copy the deathrattle effects of three friendly minions that died this game" instead of what it actually says "gain...," then would it go infinite with Recurring Villain? It's not complicated: I think things change a lot if you replace the word "gain" in the text of Da Undatakah with the word "copy." Am I wrong?
Yes, you are wrong. Da undatakah would not have any deathrattles when resummoned, since he only gets deathrattles due to his triggering battlecry (as people have told you repeatedly). That is how it works in HS.
Edit: the difference to faceless is that faceless *is* the new minion and is handled as the respective card from thereon. But the card da undatakah is still the same and has no default deathrattle when resummoned.
I know it won't. Listen to what I'm saying. I'm offering a hypothetical. If the text of Da Undatakah read "Copy the deathrattle effects of three friendly minions that died this game" instead of what it actually says "gain...," then would it go infinite with Recurring Villain? It's not complicated: I think things change a lot if you replace the word "gain" in the text of Da Undatakah with the word "copy." Am I wrong?
If you want to change the base card (an 8 mana 8/5 with a battlecry) globally during a game, you'll need more specific wording, not just "copy". Globally changing or buffing base cards during a game is an extremely rare mechanic and has historically only appeared in jade golems and C'thun. These are big, expansion-defining mechanics with tons of support cards that buff in specific ways to ensure they don't break the game. To put this on a random neutral legendary makes no sense and puts the meta balance at risk for no good reason. Hypothetically, you can achieve this effect by making the battlecry something like, "<Gain effects blah, blah, blah> ... Give all future Da Undatakahs the same deathrattles, wherever they are."
Also, the difference between faceless and Undatakah is not "copy", but transform. Faceless transforms itself into a new minion, leaving behind no traces of its previous form, much like a shaman can transform away deathrattles with hex. For another way to make this work, the battlecry would need to be similar to "transform into a 8/5 <token name> with the deathrattle effects of 3 friendly minions that died this game." This way, when it dies, it will summon the new 8/5 token (which comes with the deathrattles) that was generated instead of the base Undatakah minion, which lacks the text to save buffs between instances
I think you've been playing way too much with Immortal Prelate. Immortal Prelate's deathrattle reads, "Shuffle this minion into your deck, it keeps any enchantments." If an Undatakah dies with this text, it will keep the deathrattles because they are enchantments (AKA, a buff). The keeping buffs part is an extremely unusual mechanic and what makes Immortal Prelate unique. Keeping buffs is not what happens normally when you summon something and Prelate is the exception to the rule
So instead of changing Undatakah, you could alternatively make villain's deathrattle could read "If this minion has 4 or more attack, resummon this with all its enchantments" (like Prelate). which would also be incredibly broken
I know it won't. Listen to what I'm saying. I'm offering a hypothetical. If the text of Da Undatakah read "Copy the deathrattle effects of three friendly minions that died this game" instead of what it actually says "gain...," then would it go infinite with Recurring Villain? It's not complicated: I think things change a lot if you replace the word "gain" in the text of Da Undatakah with the word "copy." Am I wrong?
If you propose to remove the battlecry, then yes that is how it might work. But as long as it has a battlecry, it won’t have any deathrattles upon (re)summoning.
OP does not understand the game very well... Da Undertakah gains its deathrattles on a battlecry so if that battlecry doesn't trigger then it doesn't have any deathrattles. Very simple.
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So I'm trying to work on an Undatakah + Recurring Villain + Immortal Prelate Paladin Deck, and I think there is a full-fledged bug with the way these cards work together. Recurring Villain's deathrattle reads "if this minion has 4 or more attack, resummon it." When Recurring Villain dies, it resummons with the same deathrattle text. This is not the case for an Undatakah that has copied Recurring Villain's deathrattle. It just resummons as a vanilla 8/5. This can't be right. If the deathrattle that is copied is "if this minion has 4 or more attack, resummon it," Da Undatakah should always meet that condition (Barring attack debuffs like shrink ray or aldor peacekeeper or something), so I'm calling this a bug. Am I missing something? It may seem small, but having played quite a few games with this deck, I genuinely think it would be a significant buff to the deck to fix this.
As it should. undatkah is a battlecry minion and not a deathrattle minion.
Fun > Meta
The keeping buffs idea is from the prelates deathrattle. If the villains goes off first the prelate will not go off. The undertakers rattles all come from the battlecry, otherwise it’s a vanilla 8/5. No battlecry, no rattles.
Right, and my mistake for even including the prelate in this discussion at all, as it is unnecessarily confusing. So imagine a deck with exactly one deathrattle card: Recurring Villain. Then imagine that I play Recurring Villain and it dies with 3 attack, failing to trigger its deathrattle. I then play Da Undatakah. Its Battlecry copies the Recurring Villain's deathrattle (since Da Undatakah copies deathrattles that never trigger and even silenced deathrattles), so it now should have a deathrattle that reads "If this minion has 4 or more attack, resummon it." So now, unless Da Undatakah is silenced or has its attack reduced below 4, it should resummon with the exact same deathrattle text, the same way that Recurring Villain does. Because Da Undatakah naturally has more than 4 attack (8), if it gets a deathrattle that resummons it if it has more than 4 attack, it should always resummon, right?
IT WON'T SUMMON WITH A DEATHRATTLE BECAUSE HE GETS HIS DEATHRATTLES WITH A BATTLE CRY, WHICH DON'T TRIGGER ON SUMKON. THE SAME WAY RECURRING VILLAIN DOES'T KEEP BUFFS AFTER BEING RESUMMONED. If you want a never dying taunt minion, do Unratakah with immortal prelate and silver vanguard and give Undatakah taunt via anything.
Yea. Im getting it , but now I'm pretty sure that the issue has nothing to do with battlecries versus summons versus original text, as you suggest. I think the issue is actually about the terms "gain" and "copy." For example, Faceless Manipulator's effect is a battlecry, like Da Undatakah (or Seeping Oozeling, for another relevant example), but because it says "copy" it can gain permanent effects (e.g. Lucentbark). Faceless Manipulator could easily read "gain text (or whatever term makes sense) of target minion," in which case it would perform resummon deathrattle effects only once, like Da Undatakah in this case. I would have to go through a lot of cards to make sure this is all consistent (Gloop Sprayer, Zerek, Redemption, and so on [this also opens up questions of "resurrect" versus "return to life" versus "resummon" versus "summon" and so on, all of which appear on cards and do sometimes identical and sometimes different things]), but I think that what were actually talking about is the difference between "gain" and "copy." Thoughts?
You are not getting it. The text could basically read: "Deathrattle: If this minion has 4 or more attack resummon this minion".
Thus it summons the basic form of the minion. In this case Recurring Villian with a deathrattle as it's deathrattle minion pr default. The Undertakah is a battlecry minion pr default, and won't keep the deathrattle.
It makes sense. I played with a deck that was based around Recurring Villian, Zerek and Da Undertakah at the start of the expansion, and Da Undertakah was not a permanent thread but rather a: "Kill this dude and deal with a board of 8/5's".
Right, but what I'm asking at this point is, "do you think that if Da Undatakah read 'copy the deathrattle effects of three friendly minions that died this game' (instead of "gain the deathrattle effects...") it would work like I originally thought?"
If you buff Recurring Villain with a +1/+1, should the resummoned minion retain the buff? if the answer is not why should Da Undatakah retain the deathrattle?
It was explained four times. My answer was as direct and clear as possible. Whenever in doubt, just read my post again. It's that simple. If I raw summon undatakah from my deck it will be a vanilla 8/5 because battlecry activates on PLAY, not summon. It really is that simple.
Fun > Meta
Yea but no, because the same is true of Faceless Manipulator (a "raw summoned" Faceless Manipulator is a 5 Mana 4/4). The difference in this case isnt between "battlecry" and "summon," it's between "gain" and "copy." That is, both Faceless Manipulator and Undatakah have battlecry (as opposed to summon) effects, but are different. That difference just has to be attributed to a difference between "gain" and "copy."
Faceless manupulator becomes a copy of another minion (you after playing it you can't distinguish between the original minion and the copied one), Da Undatakah just gets the deathrattle of a minion, he still remains himself
No, it won't. Listen to what others are saying.
I know it won't. Listen to what I'm saying. I'm offering a hypothetical. If the text of Da Undatakah read "Copy the deathrattle effects of three friendly minions that died this game" instead of what it actually says "gain...," then would it go infinite with Recurring Villain? It's not complicated: I think things change a lot if you replace the word "gain" in the text of Da Undatakah with the word "copy." Am I wrong?
Hey Blizzard, please change the mechanic because one player can’t comprehend it. Thank you in advance!
In short, no it would not. The reason they use copy and not gain on Faceless is that the card text is a lot simpler instead of needing to specify literally everything (stats, effects, name, mana cost). So the effect of gain and copy are the same, but the example of Faceless Manipulator is different.
Yes, you are wrong. Da undatakah would not have any deathrattles when resummoned, since he only gets deathrattles due to his triggering battlecry (as people have told you repeatedly). That is how it works in HS.
Edit: the difference to faceless is that faceless *is* the new minion and is handled as the respective card from thereon. But the card da undatakah is still the same and has no default deathrattle when resummoned.
If you want to change the base card (an 8 mana 8/5 with a battlecry) globally during a game, you'll need more specific wording, not just "copy". Globally changing or buffing base cards during a game is an extremely rare mechanic and has historically only appeared in jade golems and C'thun. These are big, expansion-defining mechanics with tons of support cards that buff in specific ways to ensure they don't break the game. To put this on a random neutral legendary makes no sense and puts the meta balance at risk for no good reason. Hypothetically, you can achieve this effect by making the battlecry something like, "<Gain effects blah, blah, blah> ... Give all future Da Undatakahs the same deathrattles, wherever they are."
Also, the difference between faceless and Undatakah is not "copy", but transform. Faceless transforms itself into a new minion, leaving behind no traces of its previous form, much like a shaman can transform away deathrattles with hex. For another way to make this work, the battlecry would need to be similar to "transform into a 8/5 <token name> with the deathrattle effects of 3 friendly minions that died this game." This way, when it dies, it will summon the new 8/5 token (which comes with the deathrattles) that was generated instead of the base Undatakah minion, which lacks the text to save buffs between instances
I think you've been playing way too much with Immortal Prelate. Immortal Prelate's deathrattle reads, "Shuffle this minion into your deck, it keeps any enchantments." If an Undatakah dies with this text, it will keep the deathrattles because they are enchantments (AKA, a buff). The keeping buffs part is an extremely unusual mechanic and what makes Immortal Prelate unique. Keeping buffs is not what happens normally when you summon something and Prelate is the exception to the rule
So instead of changing Undatakah, you could alternatively make villain's deathrattle could read "If this minion has 4 or more attack, resummon this with all its enchantments" (like Prelate). which would also be incredibly broken
Legend with : S65 Freeze Mage, S57 Maly Gonk Druid, S57 "Okay" Shaman, S53 Boom-zooka Hunter, S53 Maly Tog Druid, S52 Wild Tog Druid ft.Blingtron, S50 Quest Rogue, S49 Dead Man's Warrior, S41 Wild Clown Fiesta Druid, S41 Hadronox Jade Druid, S40 Wild OTK Dragon Druid, S35 SMOrc Shaman, S33 Jade Druid, S22 Control Priest, S19 Control Priest
If you propose to remove the battlecry, then yes that is how it might work. But as long as it has a battlecry, it won’t have any deathrattles upon (re)summoning.
OP does not understand the game very well... Da Undertakah gains its deathrattles on a battlecry so if that battlecry doesn't trigger then it doesn't have any deathrattles. Very simple.