I've stated mutliple times in the card discussion thread for pretty much the same reasons Kripp brings up that I'm not really convinced of Togwaggle being the bestest, strongestest card ever and so broken it will be nerfed within two weeks, as some people claim.
I am not surprised to see Kripp being a bit skeptical as well.
Rogue has few means to stay alive, the Lackey generators so far are not great, and since all of Tog's treasures carry a fair amount of RNG, I'm not even sure if he will, on average, be strong enough to win you the game.
It is a good card, perhaps even very good, and can certainly make for some big turns, and Rogue can do all sorts of things to get even more out of him, but it requires a bit of a setup and a turn where you can savely play him. If you are falling behind, you need good means of recover. Rogue simply isn't a good class for these kind of things. Of course, this also depends on the meta, and what other tools Rogue will receive, but my personal guess is that Togwaggle will not be an auto-include for all Rogue decks as people say.
Feel free to prove everyone wrong when the card comes out, but I don't get why people make such a fuss about it. It's just a good card, nothing more.
Umm... control rogue doesn't exist? How do you categorize burgle archetype then? Sure, it may not be tier 1-2, but it exists and is somewhat decent. Also, the board clears rogue does have aren't as bad as Kripp makes it sound, we have multiple single-target removals and Vanish.
Normally I would agree but this card is so insanely strong that it can make control or midrange lackey rogue an archetype all by itself.
Rogue will still lose to aggro like always, but beating control, combo, and midrange decks is perfectly reasonable with a miracle or tempo style including Togwaggle.
I also hate to hear "X archetype doesn't exist, so Y card is bad" right before a MASSIVE meta shift. Nobody knows what will happen. Control murloc hunter could be the next meta deck for all we know.
On paper, everything you said is correct.
I would be willing to bet that in actuality 100% of the meta predictions in this post are 100% incorrect.
Furthermore, the reason he confidently states that Control Rogue does not exist is because it has never existed, it's nowhere close to existing, and no one card will change that. The foundation isn't there. I'm sure if every other rogue card revealed turn out to be every possible need to make a Control deck, he will change his tune, but for the moment, Control Rogue does not exist, with or without Tog 2.0
I just posted this because I'm planting my flag officially in Team Kripp on this one, something I have not done prior. Tog 2.0 is not going to make a meaningful impact on the meta for the foreseeable (defined as "until the next set release") future. If there is a massive wave of unexpectedly flavored rogue reveals on the final stream, I'll be happy to say otherwise. With all the cards we know of so far, he and I are correct.
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Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Umm... control rogue doesn't exist? How do you categorize burgle archetype then? Sure, it may not be tier 1-2, but it exists and is somewhat decent. Also, the board clears rogue does have aren't as bad as Kripp makes it sound, we have multiple single-target removals and Vanish.
XD every archerype exists if you go low enough in power level, so stop talking about control rogue existing :D
If you're playing aggro or tempo, why do you need togwaggle??. Control rogue doesn't exist so this card is bad.
Why in the world anybody listen to kripp is beyond me. He know nothing, his preditions are mostly wrong and he is a bad player that has never won any thing.
If you're playing aggro or tempo, why do you need togwaggle??. Control rogue doesn't exist so this card is bad.
Why in the world anybody listen to kripp is beyond me. He know nothing, his preditions are mostly wrong and he is a bad player that has never won any thing.
Umm... control rogue doesn't exist? How do you categorize burgle archetype then? Sure, it may not be tier 1-2, but it exists and is somewhat decent. Also, the board clears rogue does have aren't as bad as Kripp makes it sound, we have multiple single-target removals and Vanish.
XD every archerype exists if you go low enough in power level, so stop talking about control rogue existing :D
I would actually go further than this. When we use the word "deck" to actually mean "deck type", we are using a definition that encompasses more than just assigning 30 cards to the same slot. We are talking about a plan, and a coherent vision of winning a game.
Take Big Spell Mage, for a moment. Big Spell Mage is only called "big spell" because of one card: Dragon's Fury. Dragon's Fury allows you to wipe the board reliably turn 5, but carries the restriction of making it very ill-advised to run spells that are cheap. The plan of BSM was once muddled by the inclusion of Arcane Intellect, but after folks realized that the deck is weakened to the point of lack of viability by the specter of the "Fury for 3" outcome, the list almost universally switched to Raven Familiar or Acolyte.
If Dragon Fury was rotating out by itself, and every other BSM card was staying in Standard, it would still be accurate to say Big Spell Mage will no longer exist. We clearly don't mean the other 28 cards couldn't be put in a deck; they obviously could. But the game plan no longer exists or is no longer coherent because there is nothing to restrict the spell list by casting cost.
On the subject of Control Rogue, you cannot illustrate a game plan for winning the game by controlling to late game UNLESS you are running a multi-card combo like Malygos/Illusionist/etc. in which case we have never referred to that as a control deck, we call it combo. The difference is the path to victory being value vs. being combo.
If you find my definition acceptable, and if you don't you'd need to explain why, Control Rogue quite literally does not exist.
I suppose if you were desirous of ultra-semantic debate, you could call Burgle Rogue an exception to the idea that "deck" includes the plan, but that's not true in any way that advances this conversation. The win condition of Burgle Rogue is to RNG into an as yet undetermined win condition with random cards. That is in no way a control deck. Burgle Rogue may occasionally fill the control roll within a certain game, but that does not make it a control deck. Hopefully, every serious Hearthstone player has read Rosewater's "Who's the Beatdown?" article, but if you haven't, the long and short is that any deck can find itself in either the aggressor or defender roll in a single game. That does not speak to whether a deck is classified as "control".
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Control deck's typical win condition is out-valuing the opponent and running them out of resources. That's exactly what burgle rogue is designed to do, not because of RNG but because it can play your own class's cards cheaper against you while sporting a larger deck. Your claim that burgle rogue's win condition is undetermined is based on a fallacy of treating a control deck as if it was a combo deck that depends on getting lucky and finding a certain combination of cards, exactly the same mistake you warned against just a paragraph earlier. The RNG is not the win condition, the value differential from playing those cards for 1 mana, having a larger deck, controlling the board via Cutlass, and regenerating the board via Tess is your win condition.
Control deck's typical win condition is out-valuing the opponent and running them out of resources. That's exactly what burgle rogue is designed to do, not because of RNG but because it can play your own class's cards cheaper against you while sporting a larger deck. Your claim that burgle rogue's win condition is undetermined is based on a fallacy of treating a control deck as if it was a combo deck that depends on getting lucky and finding a certain combination of cards, exactly the same mistake you warned against just a paragraph earlier. The RNG is not the win condition, the value differential from playing those cards for 1 mana, having a larger deck, controlling the board via Cutlass, and regenerating the board via Tess is your win condition.
Sorry, something in my throat. But yeah, a controlling Rogue archtype has never ever existed. Nope. Only Tempo and Aggro. MILL ROGUE DOESN'T EXIST WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT.
I've stated mutliple times in the card discussion thread for pretty much the same reasons Kripp brings up that I'm not really convinced of Togwaggle being the bestest, strongestest card ever and so broken it will be nerfed within two weeks, as some people claim.
I am not surprised to see Kripp being a bit skeptical as well.
Rogue has few means to stay alive, the Lackey generators so far are not great, and since all of Tog's treasures carry a fair amount of RNG, I'm not even sure if he will, on average, be strong enough to win you the game.
It is a good card, perhaps even very good, and can certainly make for some big turns, and Rogue can do all sorts of things to get even more out of him, but it requires a bit of a setup and a turn where you can savely play him. If you are falling behind, you need good means of recover. Rogue simply isn't a good class for these kind of things. Of course, this also depends on the meta, and what other tools Rogue will receive, but my personal guess is that Togwaggle will not be an auto-include for all Rogue decks as people say.
Feel free to prove everyone wrong when the card comes out, but I don't get why people make such a fuss about it. It's just a good card, nothing more.
Thats exactly why this card is in rogue and not in priest, where it would be OP AF.
I love that he rates the 4/3 pirate 4 stars and our new king only gets 3. Makes sense, salty friend.
Occasionally gives helpful advice.
Umm... control rogue doesn't exist? How do you categorize burgle archetype then? Sure, it may not be tier 1-2, but it exists and is somewhat decent. Also, the board clears rogue does have aren't as bad as Kripp makes it sound, we have multiple single-target removals and Vanish.
Kripp is usually even worse at predicting card power levels than Trump
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
Kripp vs Trump vs Hearthpwn, the ultimate battle to see who is the worst card power predictor
Well his point is that on turn 7 rogue wants opponent to explode already not play a 1/1 + 5/5 for some shenanigans on turn 8...
I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist. ©Trimutius
It's a good idea to occasionally say some controversial to get people talking about you and watching your YT videos.
This thread is bad for rogue
On paper, everything you said is correct.
I would be willing to bet that in actuality 100% of the meta predictions in this post are 100% incorrect.
Furthermore, the reason he confidently states that Control Rogue does not exist is because it has never existed, it's nowhere close to existing, and no one card will change that. The foundation isn't there. I'm sure if every other rogue card revealed turn out to be every possible need to make a Control deck, he will change his tune, but for the moment, Control Rogue does not exist, with or without Tog 2.0
I just posted this because I'm planting my flag officially in Team Kripp on this one, something I have not done prior. Tog 2.0 is not going to make a meaningful impact on the meta for the foreseeable (defined as "until the next set release") future. If there is a massive wave of unexpectedly flavored rogue reveals on the final stream, I'll be happy to say otherwise. With all the cards we know of so far, he and I are correct.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
you don't have to pay, just watch his stream on the release day
XD every archerype exists if you go low enough in power level, so stop talking about control rogue existing :D
Why in the world anybody listen to kripp is beyond me. He know nothing, his preditions are mostly wrong and he is a bad player that has never won any thing.
He is an arena GOD, that's why.
https://liquipedia.net/hearthstone/Kripparrian
I would actually go further than this. When we use the word "deck" to actually mean "deck type", we are using a definition that encompasses more than just assigning 30 cards to the same slot. We are talking about a plan, and a coherent vision of winning a game.
Take Big Spell Mage, for a moment. Big Spell Mage is only called "big spell" because of one card: Dragon's Fury. Dragon's Fury allows you to wipe the board reliably turn 5, but carries the restriction of making it very ill-advised to run spells that are cheap. The plan of BSM was once muddled by the inclusion of Arcane Intellect, but after folks realized that the deck is weakened to the point of lack of viability by the specter of the "Fury for 3" outcome, the list almost universally switched to Raven Familiar or Acolyte.
If Dragon Fury was rotating out by itself, and every other BSM card was staying in Standard, it would still be accurate to say Big Spell Mage will no longer exist. We clearly don't mean the other 28 cards couldn't be put in a deck; they obviously could. But the game plan no longer exists or is no longer coherent because there is nothing to restrict the spell list by casting cost.
On the subject of Control Rogue, you cannot illustrate a game plan for winning the game by controlling to late game UNLESS you are running a multi-card combo like Malygos/Illusionist/etc. in which case we have never referred to that as a control deck, we call it combo. The difference is the path to victory being value vs. being combo.
If you find my definition acceptable, and if you don't you'd need to explain why, Control Rogue quite literally does not exist.
I suppose if you were desirous of ultra-semantic debate, you could call Burgle Rogue an exception to the idea that "deck" includes the plan, but that's not true in any way that advances this conversation. The win condition of Burgle Rogue is to RNG into an as yet undetermined win condition with random cards. That is in no way a control deck. Burgle Rogue may occasionally fill the control roll within a certain game, but that does not make it a control deck. Hopefully, every serious Hearthstone player has read Rosewater's "Who's the Beatdown?" article, but if you haven't, the long and short is that any deck can find itself in either the aggressor or defender roll in a single game. That does not speak to whether a deck is classified as "control".
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Control deck's typical win condition is out-valuing the opponent and running them out of resources. That's exactly what burgle rogue is designed to do, not because of RNG but because it can play your own class's cards cheaper against you while sporting a larger deck. Your claim that burgle rogue's win condition is undetermined is based on a fallacy of treating a control deck as if it was a combo deck that depends on getting lucky and finding a certain combination of cards, exactly the same mistake you warned against just a paragraph earlier. The RNG is not the win condition, the value differential from playing those cards for 1 mana, having a larger deck, controlling the board via Cutlass, and regenerating the board via Tess is your win condition.
As far as the comment about going down in power level, sure it's no Midrange Hunter, but don't make it sound like it's a meme deck either. It achieves 50% winrate despite the auto-concede against other rogues: https://hsreplay.net/decks/#playerClasses=ROGUE&gameType=RANKED_STANDARD&archetypes=276&sortBy=winrate
There is also Deathrattle Rogue, which is also controlish: https://hsreplay.net/decks/#playerClasses=ROGUE&gameType=RANKED_STANDARD&sortBy=winrate&archetypes=198
To say Control Rogue flatly, simply doesn't exist is to deal in absolutes. Only a sith deals in absolutes...
If you thought you knew what you think I know, then you'd know I knew you knew I know.
It's like saying back in 2015 that Dr. Boom is not good because it costs 7 mana so it's a 'control card'. Literally aggro decks played him LMAO.
I can't imagine any cards that would enable a slower Rogue playstyle.
Academic Espionage Spectral Cutlass
Sorry, something in my throat. But yeah, a controlling Rogue archtype has never ever existed. Nope. Only Tempo and Aggro. MILL ROGUE DOESN'T EXIST WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT.
^ Ignore this guy.