Something has come to my attention about Match Making Rating within hearthstone that I didn't know previously existed. I will explain random match making vs controlled match making, and then give my example of experience.
When a player presses "Play Game" in rank or other, we get the reel of silly adjectives until a matched player is found. During this time Hearthstone is going through the players in Queue and matching you up with another player in your rank (1 above or below sometimes 2).
A Random Match Making system would throw together two people in the same rank, regardless of skill, history, class chosen or even deck.
A controlled Match Making would take time; finding statistics, history, chosen class, chosen deck possibly etc.. and put two players IT deems "fair".
So what's the point?
I've been playing Hearthstone since GVG/LOE era. I've been hitting rank 10-5 whenever I play a decent amount of HS a month. I have a brother who I got into Hearthstone, I buy him expansions and packs sometimes so he can get caught up in the meta with new cards.
He (my brother) would always be rank 18-12ish (on a good month lol) for about a year. Up until Cubelock came out. Last month I crafted him Cubelock, and he has been playing it ever since. He reached rank 5 in a couple days playing this "new" deck, as did I playing token paladin, cube, control lock, combo priest, secret mage, jade druid etc (I have all tier 1/2 decks).
So that's cool. This month starts. We are both rank 9, starting out equal as we finished end of season same rank. I go to rank 7, then lose to 8, then 9, then almost 10, then back to 8, then back to 9 again where I sit as of now. I've played every single deck I have and I'm getting unbalanced match ups (terrible mulligan allowing opponent to snowball into curve, or un-synergistic cards that aren't played together, or just bad "RNG").
My brother has played 1 deck. His Cubelock. He went from rank 9 to rank 5 non stop in 2 days with Average play time. I've spectated several of his games; his opponents are always misplaying, mis counting, missing lethal, making mistakes.. or he has the mulligan that snowballs into cubes, demons Guldan, Nzoth. Almost everytime I spectated his opponents were terrible.
In My games, my opponents rarely ever make rank 20 mistakes (lol), and the games go the distance or I get snowballed into oblivion and its a quick loss.
Point of the OP: The match making system is clearly different for me vs my brother's Ques. We play near same rank, but he is getting "easier" match ups, great mulligans, bad opponents etc.. where I am on the other side of that coin per say.
I wanted to post this as a witness of the experience from hearthstone Match Making that is "different" from player to player and if others may experience the same thing. Either way I will get rank 5+ throughout the season, just hasn't happened in 1-2 days as my less experienced brother did.
Is there any way you can prove this with actual numbers and proof? Otherwise this looks like a thread about you being mad that your brother got rank 5 because he had better luck.
Does it read like I'm mad? Lol.. It's hearthstone, nothing emotional about it. I play for fun and to get my Golden epic. This is what I've experienced and him and I (my brother) both made these observations together spectating eachother and playing with eachother.
Luck has nothing to do with it, or anger. Why even post?
Bit of a long post but I thought fuck it I'll read it.
In my observations of playing Hearthstone since GvG it seems to put you into a pool of players against whom it will match for that session. Then periodically, maybe the next time you log in or it could be the next day it will move you to a different pool of players. This explains why sometimes you get good streaks and sometimes bad streaks with all the roping and BM lumped in.
How these pools of players are made I'm not sure but there seems to be a difference in general style, it could be by MMR or how new the players are I dunno. Some days you can have the most pleasant run of games ever, you see a variety of decks, no BM, opponents will politely return your "Well Played" and no one ropes. Then on another day everyone is playing Secret Mage, Cube Lock, Recruit Paladin and you suffer all the BM that goes with it all day long.
The only thing we know about all this is that we don't know exactly how it works because the program is closed source and Blizzard are very reluctant to reveal their methods.
You and your brother are two persons. Unless you both play about 100 games at least, deviation from each others meta is not a surprise. He had a bit of luck, you did not. Or maybe your brother is now much better than you would think.
I’m of the mindset your opponent pool changes day to day. Every day I play seems to follow a theme for lack of a better term. On days where my opponents all curve out perfectly I just stop playing because the losses just feel scripted.
You and your brother are two persons. Unless you both play about 100 games at least, deviation from each others meta is not a surprise. He had a bit of luck, you did not. Or maybe your brother is now much better than you would think.
I've noticed the same significant differences in behavior between sessions though, over nearly 4 years of playing.
Is there any way you can prove this with actual numbers and proof? Otherwise this looks like a thread about you being mad that your brother got rank 5 because he had better luck.
Does it read like I'm mad? Lol.. It's hearthstone, nothing emotional about it. I play for fun and to get my Golden epic. This is what I've experienced and him and I (my brother) both made these observations together spectating eachother and playing with eachother.
Luck has nothing to do with it, or anger. Why even post?
You and your brother are two persons. Unless you both play about 100 games at least, deviation from each others meta is not a surprise. He had a bit of luck, you did not. Or maybe your brother is now much better than you would think.
I've noticed the same significant differences in behavior between sessions though, over nearly 4 years of playing.
Yes of course. A session of yours is surely not longer than 200 games, everything that is not statistically significant can have these deviations. Sometimes I lose 8 of 10 games games just to win 8 of 10 games on the day afterwards. Sometimes I meet a lot of Paladins, sometimes I just play against priests and mages and see no Paladin at all. It happens. If you play about 500 games, you will most likely approache the meta stats from HSreplay or other metastat sites.
Or the simplest answer, it may be that people play sloppy versus cubelock.
This about it. Look how much salt there is against cubelock on this site. People who are angry before the match begins and don't feel like they can win don't play well. So that's one factor.
The other factor is, while cubelock is hardly invincible, there is a very small window to beat it in. If the game goes to turn 11-12 it will probably start out valueing any other deck. And due to starting with mistress of mixtures, defile, and other high powered cheap cards, it is fairly hard to do anything to in the first 3-4 turns. That means there is this sweet spot, between turns five and ten, when you need to win the game, all while dealing with whatever demon gets cheated out on turn six. That's high pressure, and a lot of decks aren't really built to win in mid game, so people are playing there deck in a style it isn't meant to be played.
Example: I play a lot of control mage, and so I'm poorly equipped to play aggro in the first five turns. If the game goes into the last five cards in our decks, the warlock player will either blow my deck up, or guldan AND Nzoth late and I only have dragoncaller alanna. In other words, he has more end game value then me. So I need to draw hard, hopefully get jaina on curve, and overwhelm the board with water elementals. I need to get him to use both twisting nethers before I play Alanna, and I need to save a polymorphs for Rin if he has it, I need to try to dirty rat Nzoth, and I need to save my blizzards for his board filling cards. That's a ton of stuff to do exactly right or I lose. The thing is, I'm not complaining warlock is overpowered, but there is definitely huge pressure playing that deck, and under that kind of pressure to play perfect, people make mistakes.
If I'm playing spell hunter or spiteful priest my goal is basically don't die, draw jaina, win. So much less stress.
Tl;Dr, your brother and you haven't discovered an issue in matchmaking. Play the same deck and you'll see that.
Switching decks constantly is agreed on by most to be a fairly bad thing to do for laddering. Your brother, who has continuously played Cubelock, has had a lot of experience with the deck continuously, and he'll have a better understanding of the matchups he gets, how to play them, and his win conditions in each since he's experiencing them so much more often. If he were to switch between decks his experience would be unfocused and spread out across decks, instead of focused and centered on the mastery of one. Not only that, but if you're switching decks all the time, it throws off the "average" result. If you stick with it for long enough you'll get both ends of the good and bad matchups over time for that deck, and you'll be able to tell eventually based on whether you're steadily going up or down in rank whether that deck is actually powerful in the meta. My advice to you is to pick a deck and stick with it. the good and bad matchups will even out and if you use some Win-Loss trackers you'll be able to have a better idea of how that deck performs in the meta (if you're playing the matchups right, that is).
Winrate, it is winrate, how do I know that? Well my friends and I , we tried make a new account for fun and testing bot in the past( no , I don't use bot for my real account) . We want to see how it work. The bot is retarded if you want to know , bad trade , sometimes going face at worst situation. So the bot lost sooooooo many games , but we have fun opening pack on that dummy account. The winrate of the bot by himself playing is about 10-20%. Sometime , we played on that account , last time I remembered (maybe it was means Street or before that). The opponents are ridiculously easy , many new player , misplay , etc u name it (like the post op make). So they match up player (if possible) with closest winrate. But if there is only few people to select from the pool , suck it u gonna play random winrate maybe higher than you. That's why after you win so many games you will meet hard opponent. That's all thank you
Dont worry. Ur brother losing streak will happen. Matchmaking system in Blizzard games always try to go to the 50% wr there for sometimes u will get easy win streaks then losing ones. You will lose more if u misplay and win more when u out skill the odds stacked against u by the MM
Dont worry. Ur brother losing streak will happen. Matchmaking system in Blizzard games always try to go to the 50% wr there for sometimes u will get easy win streaks then losing ones. You will lose more if u misplay and win more when u out skill the odds stacked against u by the MM
That is not how it works in Ranked. You are matched with a random person of your same rank if possible. If it takes too long to find someone, the game picks someone from a neighboring rank. MMR only happens in Casual and Legend. (Arena matchmaking is done by your win/loss record with your current deck.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I think most people's problem is your speculation is that Hearthstone devs have explicitly said otherwise and a quick google search would have told you this.
Quote from Max McCall, Hearthstone game designer Link to article
"In casual and at Legend rank, we pair players with similar MMRs. In Ranked below legend, we pair people with similar star ranks instead of similar MMRs. Your rating is the only input that the matchmaker receives. It doesn’t know what deck you’re playing, what deck you just played with or against, or anything else, except for your rating."
P.S. It is also kind of weird to call yourself OP.
Or the simplest answer, it may be that people play sloppy versus cubelock.
This about it. Look how much salt there is against cubelock on this site. People who are angry before the match begins and don't feel like they can win don't play well. So that's one factor.
The other factor is, while cubelock is hardly invincible, there is a very small window to beat it in. If the game goes to turn 11-12 it will probably start out valueing any other deck. And due to starting with mistress of mixtures, defile, and other high powered cheap cards, it is fairly hard to do anything to in the first 3-4 turns. That means there is this sweet spot, between turns five and ten, when you need to win the game, all while dealing with whatever demon gets cheated out on turn six. That's high pressure, and a lot of decks aren't really built to win in mid game, so people are playing there deck in a style it isn't meant to be played.
Example: I play a lot of control mage, and so I'm poorly equipped to play aggro in the first five turns. If the game goes into the last five cards in our decks, the warlock player will either blow my deck up, or guldan AND Nzoth late and I only have dragoncaller alanna. In other words, he has more end game value then me. So I need to draw hard, hopefully get jaina on curve, and overwhelm the board with water elementals. I need to get him to use both twisting nethers before I play Alanna, and I need to save a polymorphs for Rin if he has it, I need to try to dirty rat Nzoth, and I need to save my blizzards for his board filling cards. That's a ton of stuff to do exactly right or I lose. The thing is, I'm not complaining warlock is overpowered, but there is definitely huge pressure playing that deck, and under that kind of pressure to play perfect, people make mistakes.
If I'm playing spell hunter or spiteful priest my goal is basically don't die, draw jaina, win. So much less stress.
Tl;Dr, your brother and you haven't discovered an issue in matchmaking. Play the same deck and you'll see that.
This is a good post; and what we considered already.
I made crafted his deck for him, crafted him the decklist and such. I was already playing Cubelock while he was stuck in the rank 18-15 area.
The difference being, when I play my cubelock deck (which is same decklist as his), I'm only playing at a 50/50 rate. Lets say I play 10 games, I win 5 of 10. He plays 10 games and wins 8 of 10.
Small scale and that is about as many games we play a day if that. We find it strange, throughout the months I coach him and tell him the ins and outs of decks and what to look out for, when to play something or not etc.. he has gotten better at the game in general and reads the board/his opponent more closely now.
The statistics of us playing the same deck are much different, when we were on the same rank together. The only reason I brought any of this up was because of that, and because its the first time he has reached higher then rank 10 let alone 5. And within 2 days of gameplay with average play time compared to myself.
I agree though, Cubelock is pretty powerful, and many players do get frustrating playing against it and maybe have a psychological effect on them to force mistakes/misplays. My most played deck this season is my Token Pala, and Murloc/Spriteful Summ. I've barely met any cubelocks on the ladder this month (end of season people trying new things). This could also be another reason he is winning more?
But we don't really have more details from Blizzard, so assuming that they don't have a system that translates into more money for them would be naive, in my opinion. If we had all the data and the math, things would be different.
And this is what I thought (there was no MMR in ranked), which is why I put the (?) in the title.
But given the Original Post and what I laid out in there, I have to question this now. Could be "RNG" is the difference of the two accounts (my bro's vs my own), could be the random opponents we are matched with playing better/worse etc..
The variation of win% from this season is a bit wild though. Especially for someone who spent 95% of his HS rank in the 20-12 area (my brother). I've watched him play since he started, we spectate eachother quite often. He was always the one playing the first card that came to mind given no thought to the future turns, passing his turn too quickly without counting .. little things that keep you in rank 20-15 lol.
One season there is a dramatic difference; and that may just be the power of Cubelock idk
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"Do you smell something...burning?
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Hi,
Something has come to my attention about Match Making Rating within hearthstone that I didn't know previously existed. I will explain random match making vs controlled match making, and then give my example of experience.
When a player presses "Play Game" in rank or other, we get the reel of silly adjectives until a matched player is found. During this time Hearthstone is going through the players in Queue and matching you up with another player in your rank (1 above or below sometimes 2).
A Random Match Making system would throw together two people in the same rank, regardless of skill, history, class chosen or even deck.
A controlled Match Making would take time; finding statistics, history, chosen class, chosen deck possibly etc.. and put two players IT deems "fair".
So what's the point?
I've been playing Hearthstone since GVG/LOE era. I've been hitting rank 10-5 whenever I play a decent amount of HS a month. I have a brother who I got into Hearthstone, I buy him expansions and packs sometimes so he can get caught up in the meta with new cards.
He (my brother) would always be rank 18-12ish (on a good month lol) for about a year. Up until Cubelock came out. Last month I crafted him Cubelock, and he has been playing it ever since. He reached rank 5 in a couple days playing this "new" deck, as did I playing token paladin, cube, control lock, combo priest, secret mage, jade druid etc (I have all tier 1/2 decks).
So that's cool. This month starts. We are both rank 9, starting out equal as we finished end of season same rank. I go to rank 7, then lose to 8, then 9, then almost 10, then back to 8, then back to 9 again where I sit as of now. I've played every single deck I have and I'm getting unbalanced match ups (terrible mulligan allowing opponent to snowball into curve, or un-synergistic cards that aren't played together, or just bad "RNG").
My brother has played 1 deck. His Cubelock. He went from rank 9 to rank 5 non stop in 2 days with Average play time. I've spectated several of his games; his opponents are always misplaying, mis counting, missing lethal, making mistakes.. or he has the mulligan that snowballs into cubes, demons Guldan, Nzoth. Almost everytime I spectated his opponents were terrible.
In My games, my opponents rarely ever make rank 20 mistakes (lol), and the games go the distance or I get snowballed into oblivion and its a quick loss.
Point of the OP: The match making system is clearly different for me vs my brother's Ques. We play near same rank, but he is getting "easier" match ups, great mulligans, bad opponents etc.. where I am on the other side of that coin per say.
I wanted to post this as a witness of the experience from hearthstone Match Making that is "different" from player to player and if others may experience the same thing. Either way I will get rank 5+ throughout the season, just hasn't happened in 1-2 days as my less experienced brother did.
"Do you smell something...burning?
Luck has nothing to do with it, or anger. Why even post?
"Do you smell something...burning?
Bit of a long post but I thought fuck it I'll read it.
In my observations of playing Hearthstone since GvG it seems to put you into a pool of players against whom it will match for that session. Then periodically, maybe the next time you log in or it could be the next day it will move you to a different pool of players. This explains why sometimes you get good streaks and sometimes bad streaks with all the roping and BM lumped in.
How these pools of players are made I'm not sure but there seems to be a difference in general style, it could be by MMR or how new the players are I dunno. Some days you can have the most pleasant run of games ever, you see a variety of decks, no BM, opponents will politely return your "Well Played" and no one ropes. Then on another day everyone is playing Secret Mage, Cube Lock, Recruit Paladin and you suffer all the BM that goes with it all day long.
The only thing we know about all this is that we don't know exactly how it works because the program is closed source and Blizzard are very reluctant to reveal their methods.
You and your brother are two persons. Unless you both play about 100 games at least, deviation from each others meta is not a surprise. He had a bit of luck, you did not. Or maybe your brother is now much better than you would think.
I’m of the mindset your opponent pool changes day to day. Every day I play seems to follow a theme for lack of a better term. On days where my opponents all curve out perfectly I just stop playing because the losses just feel scripted.
maybe you are the one misplaying? ;-)
Confirmation bias
Hearthstone is not out to get you.
Or the simplest answer, it may be that people play sloppy versus cubelock.
This about it. Look how much salt there is against cubelock on this site. People who are angry before the match begins and don't feel like they can win don't play well. So that's one factor.
The other factor is, while cubelock is hardly invincible, there is a very small window to beat it in. If the game goes to turn 11-12 it will probably start out valueing any other deck. And due to starting with mistress of mixtures, defile, and other high powered cheap cards, it is fairly hard to do anything to in the first 3-4 turns. That means there is this sweet spot, between turns five and ten, when you need to win the game, all while dealing with whatever demon gets cheated out on turn six. That's high pressure, and a lot of decks aren't really built to win in mid game, so people are playing there deck in a style it isn't meant to be played.
Example: I play a lot of control mage, and so I'm poorly equipped to play aggro in the first five turns. If the game goes into the last five cards in our decks, the warlock player will either blow my deck up, or guldan AND Nzoth late and I only have dragoncaller alanna. In other words, he has more end game value then me. So I need to draw hard, hopefully get jaina on curve, and overwhelm the board with water elementals. I need to get him to use both twisting nethers before I play Alanna, and I need to save a polymorphs for Rin if he has it, I need to try to dirty rat Nzoth, and I need to save my blizzards for his board filling cards. That's a ton of stuff to do exactly right or I lose. The thing is, I'm not complaining warlock is overpowered, but there is definitely huge pressure playing that deck, and under that kind of pressure to play perfect, people make mistakes.
If I'm playing spell hunter or spiteful priest my goal is basically don't die, draw jaina, win. So much less stress.
Tl;Dr, your brother and you haven't discovered an issue in matchmaking. Play the same deck and you'll see that.
Switching decks constantly is agreed on by most to be a fairly bad thing to do for laddering. Your brother, who has continuously played Cubelock, has had a lot of experience with the deck continuously, and he'll have a better understanding of the matchups he gets, how to play them, and his win conditions in each since he's experiencing them so much more often. If he were to switch between decks his experience would be unfocused and spread out across decks, instead of focused and centered on the mastery of one. Not only that, but if you're switching decks all the time, it throws off the "average" result. If you stick with it for long enough you'll get both ends of the good and bad matchups over time for that deck, and you'll be able to tell eventually based on whether you're steadily going up or down in rank whether that deck is actually powerful in the meta. My advice to you is to pick a deck and stick with it. the good and bad matchups will even out and if you use some Win-Loss trackers you'll be able to have a better idea of how that deck performs in the meta (if you're playing the matchups right, that is).
Why does Vicious Fledgling exist
Winrate, it is winrate, how do I know that? Well my friends and I , we tried make a new account for fun and testing bot in the past( no , I don't use bot for my real account) . We want to see how it work. The bot is retarded if you want to know , bad trade , sometimes going face at worst situation. So the bot lost sooooooo many games , but we have fun opening pack on that dummy account. The winrate of the bot by himself playing is about 10-20%. Sometime , we played on that account , last time I remembered (maybe it was means Street or before that). The opponents are ridiculously easy , many new player , misplay , etc u name it (like the post op make). So they match up player (if possible) with closest winrate. But if there is only few people to select from the pool , suck it u gonna play random winrate maybe higher than you. That's why after you win so many games you will meet hard opponent. That's all thank you
Wow
Dont worry. Ur brother losing streak will happen. Matchmaking system in Blizzard games always try to go to the 50% wr there for sometimes u will get easy win streaks then losing ones. You will lose more if u misplay and win more when u out skill the odds stacked against u by the MM
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
A lot of these responses have nothing to do with what the OP is about.. Reading comprehensions and all that I suppose?
This was an observations. I'm not hating on the game. I do not care, as I will end up where I wanna be end of season anyways (rank5+) regardless.
Only brought this up as we observed this between eachother, and maybe others on hearthpwn have too.
"Do you smell something...burning?
Can I get the clif notes for these people post omg like reading a story that just goes on and on.
I think most people's problem is your speculation is that Hearthstone devs have explicitly said otherwise and a quick google search would have told you this.
Quote from Max McCall, Hearthstone game designer Link to article
"In casual and at Legend rank, we pair players with similar MMRs. In Ranked below legend, we pair people with similar star ranks instead of similar MMRs. Your rating is the only input that the matchmaker receives. It doesn’t know what deck you’re playing, what deck you just played with or against, or anything else, except for your rating."
P.S. It is also kind of weird to call yourself OP.
I made crafted his deck for him, crafted him the decklist and such. I was already playing Cubelock while he was stuck in the rank 18-15 area.
The difference being, when I play my cubelock deck (which is same decklist as his), I'm only playing at a 50/50 rate. Lets say I play 10 games, I win 5 of 10. He plays 10 games and wins 8 of 10.
Small scale and that is about as many games we play a day if that. We find it strange, throughout the months I coach him and tell him the ins and outs of decks and what to look out for, when to play something or not etc.. he has gotten better at the game in general and reads the board/his opponent more closely now.
The statistics of us playing the same deck are much different, when we were on the same rank together. The only reason I brought any of this up was because of that, and because its the first time he has reached higher then rank 10 let alone 5. And within 2 days of gameplay with average play time compared to myself.
I agree though, Cubelock is pretty powerful, and many players do get frustrating playing against it and maybe have a psychological effect on them to force mistakes/misplays. My most played deck this season is my Token Pala, and Murloc/Spriteful Summ. I've barely met any cubelocks on the ladder this month (end of season people trying new things). This could also be another reason he is winning more?
Cheers
"Do you smell something...burning?
But given the Original Post and what I laid out in there, I have to question this now. Could be "RNG" is the difference of the two accounts (my bro's vs my own), could be the random opponents we are matched with playing better/worse etc..
One season there is a dramatic difference; and that may just be the power of Cubelock idk
"Do you smell something...burning?