This may have been discussed before - though I expect not for a long while. I couldn't find anything specific from a cursory search. EDIT: to clarify, this isn't calling for any kind of nerfs etc. It's just theorising on alternate versions and how that would affect the cards / game, etc.
Anyway - I've been thinking about the Pirates package recently and a comment in another thread just reminded me of this. People often complain about Patches the Pirate, without seeming to realise that Patches by itself isn't really the problem. IMO, that blame lies more securely down to the Southsea Captain.
You rarely see people complaining (with a straight face) about the Bloodsail Corsair + Patches the Pirate combo. Instead, what really gives Patches too much power is the buff it receives from Southsea Captain.
So I was considering what the advantage this card really wants to give and how you could play around this a bit more.
Perhaps an interesting alternative could be for the wording to specify (on the Captain) something like : "when a pirate is played, give it +1/+1". This would mean Patches still works as originally intended, being pulled from the deck, but doesnt receive and abusable buff from the Captain. But it also relieves some of the pain of drawing Patches, since you could then gfet a buff for him if the Captain is in play.
And it also means the downside of the Captain is then lessened since his buffs dont just evaporate when he is removed from the board. This helps to lower the strength of the Patches and Captain combo, while soft-buffing the Captain's power without making it too powerful. And increases the mana cost of getting the usual combo off.
There is a precedent set here for this when you consider the Addled Grizzly minion. He has slightly lower stats because his power is actually stronger than this (not requiring pirates).
Interested to see what others think of something to this effect.
This will also affect any pirate pulled from Call to Arms, becoming an indirect nerf to the cards, especially after parches rotates. I think maybe a nerf more like the one Murloc Warleader received could be a solution.
But we might end up see the pirate pack fall in popularity after rotation in favour of something else
Just no. No. Captain has never been a problem card. What you're suggesting is a totally different card, because you'd have to play it preemptively, whereas captain was best played on a board with pirates ready to attack. Notice how I said was? Patches changed that, because patches is the problem.
Just no. No. Captain has never been a problem card. What you're suggesting is a totally different card, because you'd have to play it preemptively, whereas captain was best played on a board with pirates ready to attack. Notice how I said was? Patches changed that, because patches is the problem.
Not really - before Patches, the most common usage was having it out and ready to play a Southsea Deckhand at 3-Atk with Charge (and a weapon out). Patches hasn't made the Captain any stronger. The Captain made Patches stronger.
Why nerf Captain when Patches is almost rotated out of standard?
Nobody is asking for any kind of nerf - this is merely discussing an idea on what difference changing a card would make. Personally I like both Cap and Patches as they are, since they're not game-changers. But it's fun to think about card changes and how that effects the game, etc.
Just no. No. Captain has never been a problem card. What you're suggesting is a totally different card, because you'd have to play it preemptively, whereas captain was best played on a board with pirates ready to attack. Notice how I said was? Patches changed that, because patches is the problem.
Not really - before Patches, the most common usage was having it out and ready to play a Southsea Deckhand at 3-Atk with Charge (and a weapon out). Patches hasn't made the Captain any stronger. The Captain made Patches stronger.
In my three years of hearthstone, I don't think I've ever seen that play made, but whatever.
And yesy patches made every pirate stronger. He took captain from being a mostly unplayed card to being the strongest turn three play in the game!
Anyway, why would you replace a card with a different one when it's an option to just add a new card to the game?
Anyway, why would you replace a card with a different one when it's an option to just add a new card to the game?
Because just adding a new card to the game only compounds an issue and avoids the fun of adjusting an existing card. Hence the very point of this thread. :-)
In my three years of hearthstone, I don't think I've ever seen that play made, but whatever.
You've never seen someone play the Captain and use his buff to make the deckhand stronger....? o.O it's in practically every weapon-wielding aggro deck ever... heck, it's even in Token Druid to some extent. But not to worry. It is what it is.
And yesy patches made every pirate stronger. He took captain from being a mostly unplayed card to being the strongest turn three play in the game!
How do you think Patches made the Captain specifically stronger? Let's say you have Patches on the board and you play the Captain. What bonus does Patches give the Captain that it didn't have before Patches was played. Is the Captain stronger now that Patches is there to buff him? Now let's reverse the scenario. The Captain is played and this pulls out Patches. Patches gets an immediate buff from the Captain. So let's remove the Captain from the equation and play the Bloodsail Corsair. Is Patches still as strong as it was before? From this example, we can see that Patches is only as powerful as it is thanks to the Captain, not in spite of him.
If aggro decks don't get early value they can't compete. This combo, while powerful, is "fair" in my view. Because otherwise you can't do enough early damage to compete with the very powerful long-term game decks that exist.
Even when the rotation happens in April, I assume Blizzard will introduce something similar. Aggro is always going to be a thing. It must have tools to make it viable.
I think Captain is fine, his power is perceived as over 9k due to the Patches influence, so your assertion is spot on. Our green-skinned skipper's already a soft taunt and as he's an aura based minion, the opponent has some margin to respond. Patches can be drawn for free and allows no interaction in the majority of his deployments. It's a potent cocktail.
I think he's fine. He isn't as oppressive as Warleader was as the Pirate tribe isn't really designed to grow steadily more powerful with increasing board presence.
I think he's fine. He isn't as oppressive as Warleader was as the Pirate tribe isn't really designed to grow steadily more powerful with increasing board presence.
Very true. Warleader was always (and still is to a lesser extent) terrifying.
Sorry for the lack of porn - the filters wouldn't let me put my pics up for some reason... :-P
@scorpyon: the Captain alone is not strong enough, just look at pre-Patches decks, did aggro shaman play the Captain? Even rogues not so much...
The Reason IMHO: either you play a pirate that's gone before the Captain comes out due to having only 1 health (it was different with STB before the nerf) or you play the Captain and it's gone before the second pirate comes out. Only with the Captain pulling a charging, immediately buffed Patches you have the strong tempo play everyone is using (rogue, pala, zoolock, hunter, shaman, even saw spiteful priest omfg)
@scorpyon: the Captain alone is not strong enough, just look at pre-Patches decks, did aggro shaman play the Captain? Even rogues not so much...
The Reason IMHO: either you play a pirate that's gone before the Captain comes out due to having only 1 health (it was different with STB before the nerf) or you play the Captain and it's gone before the second pirate comes out. Only with the Captain pulling a charging, immediately buffed Patches you have the strong tempo play everyone is using (rogue, pala, zoolock, hunter, shaman, even saw spiteful priest omfg)
Sure - Tho my suggestion wasn't to play the Captain alone, however. Patches is still present (and unchanged). (In this iteration)
My hypothesis was in altering the way that the Captain provides his buff. You would still pull out a 1/1 Patches with charge. He just wouldn't be a 2/2 any more. Unless you played him by hand.
In fact, this is actually the perfect example of why teh Captain is what makes Patches strong, and not vice versa. If you alter the buff, Patches is still good, but doesn't become ineffective. And you still have a solid 4/4 of stats (with a 1/1 charge) for 3 mana, which is still better than most 3 drops in the game.
In my three years of hearthstone, I don't think I've ever seen that play made, but whatever.
You've never seen someone play the Captain and use his buff to make the deckhand stronger....? o.O it's in practically every weapon-wielding aggro deck ever... heck, it's even in Token Druid to some extent. But not to worry. It is what it is.
And yesy patches made every pirate stronger. He took captain from being a mostly unplayed card to being the strongest turn three play in the game!
How do you think Patches made the Captain specifically stronger? Let's say you have Patches on the board and you play the Captain. What bonus does Patches give the Captain that it didn't have before Patches was played. Is the Captain stronger now that Patches is there to buff him? Now let's reverse the scenario. The Captain is played and this pulls out Patches. Patches gets an immediate buff from the Captain. So let's remove the Captain from the equation and play the Bloodsail Corsair. Is Patches still as strong as it was before? From this example, we can see that Patches is only as powerful as it is thanks to the Captain, not in spite of him.
I was obviously talking about the very specific play you described, not the general case of buffing pirates with captainc
So, adding a free charge minion as a bonus to a card does not equate to making it stronger in your opinion? So if I were to add "battlecry: summon a stonetusk boar" to let's say carrion grub, that would not make carrion grub a stronger card?
Anyway, why would you replace a card with a different one when it's an option to just add a new card to the game?
Because just adding a new card to the game only compounds an issue and avoids the fun of adjusting an existing card. Hence the very point of this thread. :-)
You literally just said there was no issue. So why change a perfectly fine card rather than add a new, equally fine card?
Anyway, why would you replace a card with a different one when it's an option to just add a new card to the game?
Because just adding a new card to the game only compounds an issue and avoids the fun of adjusting an existing card. Hence the very point of this thread. :-)
You literally just said there was no issue. So why change a perfectly fine card rather than add a new, equally fine card?
Because sometimes it's fun to look at the current use of a card (that others DO have an issue with) and think of new and interesting ways it could be modified. You don't have to participate if you dont' want to... ;-) (Nobody is forcing you to consider the new ideas)
In my three years of hearthstone, I don't think I've ever seen that play made, but whatever.
You've never seen someone play the Captain and use his buff to make the deckhand stronger....? o.O it's in practically every weapon-wielding aggro deck ever... heck, it's even in Token Druid to some extent. But not to worry. It is what it is.
And yesy patches made every pirate stronger. He took captain from being a mostly unplayed card to being the strongest turn three play in the game!
How do you think Patches made the Captain specifically stronger? Let's say you have Patches on the board and you play the Captain. What bonus does Patches give the Captain that it didn't have before Patches was played. Is the Captain stronger now that Patches is there to buff him? Now let's reverse the scenario. The Captain is played and this pulls out Patches. Patches gets an immediate buff from the Captain. So let's remove the Captain from the equation and play the Bloodsail Corsair. Is Patches still as strong as it was before? From this example, we can see that Patches is only as powerful as it is thanks to the Captain, not in spite of him.
I was obviously talking about the very specific play you described, not the general case of buffing pirates with captainc
So, adding a free charge minion as a bonus to a card does not equate to making it stronger in your opinion? So if I were to add "battlecry: summon a stonetusk boar" to let's say carrion grub, that would not make carrion grub a stronger card?
For that to be a consideration, you would have to claim that the Captain's text states something like : Battlecry - summon Patches from your deck Which obviously it doesn't.
Instead, Stonetusk boar would need to have "When a beast is played, summon this card from your deck". And now we are seeing something similar. So now we are seeing all sorts of cards become synergetically stronger. But the boar is still as weak as it always was (barring the ability to be auto-summoned) unless it receives a bonus to its stats from elsewhere.
What you are talking about here is synergy. The synergy that Patches gives to the Captain is quite obvious. But the Captain isn't made any stronger by Patches being around. However, the same can't be said in revers. Patches' stats are noticeably altered when the Captain is present. The Captain's are not. His Abilities are not. If Patches is on the board and the Captain is played, the Captain does not get any better. Patches does. If the Captain is on the board and Patches is played, the Captain does not get any better. Patches does.
Sure, playing the Captain with Patches in the deck is strong, since Patches is pulled out - but that hasn't made the Captain stronger, the strength lies in the synergy of pulling out Patches. But now Patches is a 2/2, not a 1/1. It is noticeably stronger than it was before. The fact that killing teh Captain makes Ptches weaker shows this quite emphatically. Killing Patches doesnt' make the Captain any weaker.
Oh ye of little memory, just because the current best patches puller the captain doesn't mean that was always the case. Before it was nerfed in pirate warrior you wanted to pull patches most often on turn one, ideally with Nzoths first mate. In aggro druid you also wanted to pull patches early, often with, that's right, Bloodsail Corsair. And that was absolutely a thing people complained about.
The captain is the ideal patches puller right now because pretty much because of keleseth, who has such high synergy with patches you often want to pull him on exactly turn 3, (and also because rogue runs less 1 drop pirates the warrior did) which just so happens means you want a 3 mana pirate to pull him, which is exactly the captain (at least, outside of warrior, but with the fwa nerf the other 3 mana pirate is much less often a good turn 3 play). That the captain is also highly synergistic with patches certainly helps. But... No, the basic premise here that the captain is what makes patches op is not only flawed, but shows a pretty shocking lack of memory. The captain is no more then a good patches enabler, it allows the overly strong card to shine, but isn't in of itself the issue.
This may have been discussed before - though I expect not for a long while. I couldn't find anything specific from a cursory search.
EDIT: to clarify, this isn't calling for any kind of nerfs etc. It's just theorising on alternate versions and how that would affect the cards / game, etc.
Anyway - I've been thinking about the Pirates package recently and a comment in another thread just reminded me of this.
People often complain about Patches the Pirate, without seeming to realise that Patches by itself isn't really the problem.
IMO, that blame lies more securely down to the Southsea Captain.
You rarely see people complaining (with a straight face) about the Bloodsail Corsair + Patches the Pirate combo. Instead, what really gives Patches too much power is the buff it receives from Southsea Captain.
So I was considering what the advantage this card really wants to give and how you could play around this a bit more.
Perhaps an interesting alternative could be for the wording to specify (on the Captain) something like : "when a pirate is played, give it +1/+1".
This would mean Patches still works as originally intended, being pulled from the deck, but doesnt receive and abusable buff from the Captain. But it also relieves some of the pain of drawing Patches, since you could then gfet a buff for him if the Captain is in play.
And it also means the downside of the Captain is then lessened since his buffs dont just evaporate when he is removed from the board.
This helps to lower the strength of the Patches and Captain combo, while soft-buffing the Captain's power without making it too powerful. And increases the mana cost of getting the usual combo off.
There is a precedent set here for this when you consider the Addled Grizzly minion. He has slightly lower stats because his power is actually stronger than this (not requiring pirates).
Interested to see what others think of something to this effect.
This will also affect any pirate pulled from Call to Arms, becoming an indirect nerf to the cards, especially after parches rotates.
I think maybe a nerf more like the one Murloc Warleader received could be a solution.
But we might end up see the pirate pack fall in popularity after rotation in favour of something else
Edit: I do in no way think a nerf is needed
I'm rather sure the Captain will Vanish from almost all Standard decks after rotation...
Just no. No. Captain has never been a problem card. What you're suggesting is a totally different card, because you'd have to play it preemptively, whereas captain was best played on a board with pirates ready to attack. Notice how I said was? Patches changed that, because patches is the problem.
Why nerf Captain when Patches is almost rotated out of standard?
Patches hasn't made the Captain any stronger. The Captain made Patches stronger.
Personally I like both Cap and Patches as they are, since they're not game-changers.
But it's fun to think about card changes and how that effects the game, etc.
it's in practically every weapon-wielding aggro deck ever... heck, it's even in Token Druid to some extent. But not to worry. It is what it is.
Now let's reverse the scenario. The Captain is played and this pulls out Patches. Patches gets an immediate buff from the Captain.
So let's remove the Captain from the equation and play the Bloodsail Corsair. Is Patches still as strong as it was before?
From this example, we can see that Patches is only as powerful as it is thanks to the Captain, not in spite of him.
If aggro decks don't get early value they can't compete. This combo, while powerful, is "fair" in my view. Because otherwise you can't do enough early damage to compete with the very powerful long-term game decks that exist.
Even when the rotation happens in April, I assume Blizzard will introduce something similar. Aggro is always going to be a thing. It must have tools to make it viable.
Scorp, I clicked on that title expecting porn.
Damn you for exciting me so...
I think Captain is fine, his power is perceived as over 9k due to the Patches influence, so your assertion is spot on. Our green-skinned skipper's already a soft taunt and as he's an aura based minion, the opponent has some margin to respond. Patches can be drawn for free and allows no interaction in the majority of his deployments. It's a potent cocktail.
I think he's fine. He isn't as oppressive as Warleader was as the Pirate tribe isn't really designed to grow steadily more powerful with increasing board presence.
Golden Hero Collections thus far; -
Europe: Druid, Hunter, Paladin, Mage, Priest, Rogue, Shaman, Warlock, Warrior (9/9)
Americas: Druid, Mage, Paladin Shaman (4/9)
Everywhere else: Workin on it.. (0/9)
@scorpyon: the Captain alone is not strong enough, just look at pre-Patches decks, did aggro shaman play the Captain? Even rogues not so much...
The Reason IMHO: either you play a pirate that's gone before the Captain comes out due to having only 1 health (it was different with STB before the nerf) or you play the Captain and it's gone before the second pirate comes out. Only with the Captain pulling a charging, immediately buffed Patches you have the strong tempo play everyone is using (rogue, pala, zoolock, hunter, shaman, even saw spiteful priest omfg)
You don't have to participate if you dont' want to... ;-)
(Nobody is forcing you to consider the new ideas)
Battlecry - summon Patches from your deck
Which obviously it doesn't.
If Patches is on the board and the Captain is played, the Captain does not get any better. Patches does.
If the Captain is on the board and Patches is played, the Captain does not get any better. Patches does.
Killing Patches doesnt' make the Captain any weaker.
Oh ye of little memory, just because the current best patches puller the captain doesn't mean that was always the case. Before it was nerfed in pirate warrior you wanted to pull patches most often on turn one, ideally with Nzoths first mate. In aggro druid you also wanted to pull patches early, often with, that's right, Bloodsail Corsair. And that was absolutely a thing people complained about.
The captain is the ideal patches puller right now because pretty much because of keleseth, who has such high synergy with patches you often want to pull him on exactly turn 3, (and also because rogue runs less 1 drop pirates the warrior did) which just so happens means you want a 3 mana pirate to pull him, which is exactly the captain (at least, outside of warrior, but with the fwa nerf the other 3 mana pirate is much less often a good turn 3 play). That the captain is also highly synergistic with patches certainly helps. But... No, the basic premise here that the captain is what makes patches op is not only flawed, but shows a pretty shocking lack of memory. The captain is no more then a good patches enabler, it allows the overly strong card to shine, but isn't in of itself the issue.