Druid finally has a viable deck quick call the nerf police, I mean they don't have secrets, weapons, board clear or hard removal but who cares? Just nerf it so another class can be spammed like Shaman was right guys? There will always be a flavour of the month but frankly watching NA and EU streams the ladder seems like all classes are being played. When will this nerf crap end? What's next fireballs? Innervate is fine the problem is Jade Idle and I'm saying that as a Druid main who plays ramp. People shouldn't have to put a 6 mana card in their deck to counter 1 spell. Rotate it to wild. As for ramp spells we are literally giving up board control to ramp sometimes 3-4 turns and by then the board can be impossible to clear. Aggro Druid, Pirate Warrior and Murloc Paladin decks like this. Reynad creates aggro decks but complains about Druid....
Innervate needs to be addressed because of all the good ramp options now. When you see a druid play a 10 drop on turn 4 it's just insanity. Skulking could also use a mana cost reduction down to 5. Even with these changes druid would still be insane, it really shows the power of their current state.
Not at all Druid without innervate and without idols is varely a tier 3 deck, what ever deck you can make. why? cause their combo piece are too expensive to play them in the same turn even in late turns. Yes the combos that druid can do now are super powerfull in early game but. Play turn 5 spreading plague into a 2 big enemy minions (like a 4/4 and a 5/5) and i ensure you one thing, withouth innevarte, you will go to lose. Tempo punish druid cards so hard cause even if they are too good when you play them early, much of them are not good enought to be played in the normal curve.
Innervate and Wild Growth are the most core cards in the game (class-identity wise). They define the ability to ramp early in a way that I don't think can be reproduced without resorting to blatant reprints. These are even more essential cards, than say Frostbolt or Fiery War Axe (you can always print different removal or weapons that are similarly powerful, but different enough to be different cards). I think there are two main problems right now with Druid.
First, Jade Idol and Jade Druid in general are complemented very well by Ultimate Infestation, because they can go UI one turn and then fill the board with Jade Golems the next one gaining massive tempo and since Idol can go infinite even if you clear their boards a few times it doesn't matter, unless if you run and play Skulking Geist quick enough.
Second, there is too much early game Ramp in rotation right now. If you have Jade Blossom and Mire Keeper on top of the 2 core ramp cards and are also using Nourish for Ramp to get to UI the strategy becomes very consistent and thus UI seems broken. With the next standard cycle we should be left with 3 good Ramp cards and Blizzard should not print anymore for a while (until UI rotates).
My main problem is that right now it feels as if there is no way that a reasonable nerf can happen other than fixing Jade Druid somehow (idk if even a nerf to Jade Idol would be really effective even assuming that Blizzard go through with the option of either summoning one Jade Golem or shuffling 3 Jade Shards in the deck, which essentially can only summon a single Jade Golem). Maybe Spreading Plague could summon a fixed number of Scarabs, but I don't like changes that promote less thinking, since if you overextend on the board there should be ways to punish you. I think UI is fine in decks like Ramp Druid and Midrange Token Druid (especially if we take a look at Vicious Syndicates data collected by tracked games), but as long as Jade Druid and a lot of Ramp options are around it will be very strong.
Now on Innervate I want to say a few words in a single paragraph. Moving this card to Wild with the intention of never re-introducing fast Ramp in the game (which should be the point, otherwise no reason to rotate it), would be a crippling blow to any form of slower Druid decks, that would probably put them below Tier 2 for all remaining history of the game. Its okay for classes to be doing badly for short stints every now and then, but willfully condemning a class to be bad forever isn't cool and while I realize that Druid is the only class so far to have never been below Tier 2, perhaps Warrior as well, its time will eventually come too, but I worry that rotating Innervate to HoF makes it impossible for Druid to be good and isn't the right way to do things. I don't want people to misunderstand what I am saying here, as I know and understand that Innervate is a very powerful effect and it constrains design space a lot, but I think its one of those core cards that are worth balancing around because of how core they are to the Ramp-style Druids. If you have played any form of slower Druid for an extended period of time you will know how miserable a Druid hand that doesn't draw its early Ramp looks and rotating Innervate out further increases the Ramping inconsistency early on which is important as Druid need to stay ahead in the game since its control tools aren't that great. Finally, I would like to point that a lot of Druid cards have been printed with Innervate in mind and that is the reason why 1 - 3 Mana drops for Druid are mostly bad, so rotating such a card to Wild has more far-reaching consequences than people think.
If we study the VS Data Reaper Live data the only very strong Druid decks right now are Jade Druid and Aggro Druid (this deck doesn't run cards at the center of widespread debate and even though Innervate + Vicious Fledgling is a game-winning play if unanswered I would argue that any 3 drop that can win the game single-handedly and quickly should never be printed in the first place). So the deck that is shaping the meta the most right now is Jade Druid and so as not to cause harm to the whole class for a single archetype's sake (that would anyway be rotating in about 8 months), I think changes should be handled within Jade Druid, if it continues to oppress and shape the meta around itself for a couple more weeks.
Edit: Also keep in mind that Murloc Paladin and Pirate Warrior are performing very well in this same meta and are even enjoying slightly higher winrates according again to VS and are basically the decks they were in Un'Goro. So basically the 4 strongest decks right now are decks from Un'Goro with the strongest KFT cards for each respective archetype slapped into the Un'Goro list, which is also why they are so strong right now (due to how refined they are). The main reason so many are complaining about Druid is its frequency (which can be very frustrating) not exactly its power level. If you play 100 games vs Jade Druid in a day you're bound to see some crazy sh*t.
name a druid deck that doesn't play innervate. if it sees play in aggressive and non aggressive decks then its too good, and its not like its a really nerfable card.
Druid class cards already received a round of nerfs in the past because they where to strong and almost always auto includes.
Innervate somehow escaped a nerf but i think its about time this card hits the nerfbat as well, its a leftover from the op druid class cards area.
Prob fair to also rework / redesign some other class cards from other classes as well.
You read what you are writting right? "We already take down 2 cards that druid has, we need to takedown this one too blablablaopspeech"
Innervate is a strong card, that is true but same for Ice Block, Savanna highmane, Hex...i can go into others auto include cards of each cards that has a lot of value for their mana cost and are almost autoinclude in their classes. We rework that cards for make their worst too ? or we Hall of Fame all the classic/basic class cards that are strong cause if they never rotate that cards cant be win conditions or autoinclude cards neither.
Can we also move Frost Nova, Equality and Brawl to the Hall of Fame as well?
What about Frostbolt and Fireball too?!?! They killed some of my minions during a game!!! I DEMAND their removal from Standard, because the spells are soo OP and broken! My mommy told me so, and now I post on the internet complaining :)
9 years old like you shouldn't really post on the internet. If you are over the age of 9 then please seek professional help.
When a "unique" card is as auto include as innervate in every kind of Druid deck I think something needs to be done. It shows just how powerful it is.
Part of the difference between innervate and cards like Frostbolt is, Frostbolt is more of a "I have to get single target spell damage somewhere." Card. It's very good, but just about every class has a direct damage spell. It's a very basic type of card.
Innervate is a very unique effect and has been in every single competitive Druid deck ever.
Can we also move Frost Nova, Equality and Brawl to the Hall of Fame as well?
What about Frostbolt and Fireball too?!?! They killed some of my minions during a game!!! I DEMAND their removal from Standard, because the spells are soo OP and broken! My mommy told me so, and now I post on the internet complaining :)
9 years old like you shouldn't really post on the internet. If you are over the age of 9 then please seek professional help.
Some people don't get jokes it seems. I'm older than you I bet, but once you get old enough to understand a joke, maybe you won't post silly replies like yours :)
Innervate is a pretty powerful card, but sending it to HoF is like sending Fireball, Fiery Axe, High Mane, Eviscerate, Truesilver, flametongue totem, Shadow words, and hellfire to HoF. These cards are all kind of part of their respective class identities.
Can we also move Frost Nova, Equality and Brawl to the Hall of Fame as well?
What about Frostbolt and Fireball too?!?! They killed some of my minions during a game!!! I DEMAND their removal from Standard, because the spells are soo OP and broken! My mommy told me so, and now I post on the internet complaining :)
9 years old like you shouldn't really post on the internet. If you are over the age of 9 then please seek professional help.
Some people don't get jokes it seems. I'm older than you I bet, but once you get old enough to understand a joke, maybe you won't post silly replies like yours :)
It seems you lacked the brain cells to understand the joke in my original post.
Can we also move Frost Nova, Equality and Brawl to the Hall of Fame as well?
What about Frostbolt and Fireball too?!?! They killed some of my minions during a game!!! I DEMAND their removal from Standard, because the spells are soo OP and broken! My mommy told me so, and now I post on the internet complaining :)
9 years old like you shouldn't really post on the internet. If you are over the age of 9 then please seek professional help.
Some people don't get jokes it seems. I'm older than you I bet, but once you get old enough to understand a joke, maybe you won't post silly replies like yours :)
It seems you lacked the brain cells to understand the joke in my original post.
Nah, I was backing up your post but then I thought you didn't get mine...sorry about that ;)
Can we also move Frost Nova, Equality and Brawl to the Hall of Fame as well?
What about Frostbolt and Fireball too?!?! They killed some of my minions during a game!!! I DEMAND their removal from Standard, because the spells are soo OP and broken! My mommy told me so, and now I post on the internet complaining :)
9 years old like you shouldn't really post on the internet. If you are over the age of 9 then please seek professional help.
Some people don't get jokes it seems. I'm older than you I bet, but once you get old enough to understand a joke, maybe you won't post silly replies like yours :)
It seems you lacked the brain cells to understand the joke in my original post.
Nah, I was backing up your post but then I thought you didn't get mine...sorry about that ;)
Why are people always unhappy about the current state of the game ?
Why do they always have to hate the class that is most powerful in the meta ?
How is having a powerful class a problem ?
I am simple guy . I like to play what's powerful and win . I don't care what class it is . The more "broken" the better . In hearthstone class power always rotated so even if your favorite class is trash right now it will be powerful at some point .
Druid finally has a viable deck quick call the nerf police, I mean they don't have secrets, weapons, board clear or hard removal but who cares? Just nerf it so another class can be spammed like Shaman was right guys? There will always be a flavour of the month but frankly watching NA and EU streams the ladder seems like all classes are being played. When will this nerf crap end? What's next fireballs? Innervate is fine the problem is Jade Idle and I'm saying that as a Druid main who plays ramp. People shouldn't have to put a 6 mana card in their deck to counter 1 spell. Rotate it to wild. As for ramp spells we are literally giving up board control to ramp sometimes 3-4 turns and by then the board can be impossible to clear. Aggro Druid, Pirate Warrior and Murloc Paladin decks like this. Reynad creates aggro decks but complains about Druid....
Innervate and Wild Growth are the most core cards in the game (class-identity wise). They define the ability to ramp early in a way that I don't think can be reproduced without resorting to blatant reprints. These are even more essential cards, than say Frostbolt or Fiery War Axe (you can always print different removal or weapons that are similarly powerful, but different enough to be different cards). I think there are two main problems right now with Druid.
First, Jade Idol and Jade Druid in general are complemented very well by Ultimate Infestation, because they can go UI one turn and then fill the board with Jade Golems the next one gaining massive tempo and since Idol can go infinite even if you clear their boards a few times it doesn't matter, unless if you run and play Skulking Geist quick enough.
Second, there is too much early game Ramp in rotation right now. If you have Jade Blossom and Mire Keeper on top of the 2 core ramp cards and are also using Nourish for Ramp to get to UI the strategy becomes very consistent and thus UI seems broken. With the next standard cycle we should be left with 3 good Ramp cards and Blizzard should not print anymore for a while (until UI rotates).
My main problem is that right now it feels as if there is no way that a reasonable nerf can happen other than fixing Jade Druid somehow (idk if even a nerf to Jade Idol would be really effective even assuming that Blizzard go through with the option of either summoning one Jade Golem or shuffling 3 Jade Shards in the deck, which essentially can only summon a single Jade Golem). Maybe Spreading Plague could summon a fixed number of Scarabs, but I don't like changes that promote less thinking, since if you overextend on the board there should be ways to punish you. I think UI is fine in decks like Ramp Druid and Midrange Token Druid (especially if we take a look at Vicious Syndicates data collected by tracked games), but as long as Jade Druid and a lot of Ramp options are around it will be very strong.
Now on Innervate I want to say a few words in a single paragraph. Moving this card to Wild with the intention of never re-introducing fast Ramp in the game (which should be the point, otherwise no reason to rotate it), would be a crippling blow to any form of slower Druid decks, that would probably put them below Tier 2 for all remaining history of the game. Its okay for classes to be doing badly for short stints every now and then, but willfully condemning a class to be bad forever isn't cool and while I realize that Druid is the only class so far to have never been below Tier 2, perhaps Warrior as well, its time will eventually come too, but I worry that rotating Innervate to HoF makes it impossible for Druid to be good and isn't the right way to do things. I don't want people to misunderstand what I am saying here, as I know and understand that Innervate is a very powerful effect and it constrains design space a lot, but I think its one of those core cards that are worth balancing around because of how core they are to the Ramp-style Druids. If you have played any form of slower Druid for an extended period of time you will know how miserable a Druid hand that doesn't draw its early Ramp looks and rotating Innervate out further increases the Ramping inconsistency early on which is important as Druid need to stay ahead in the game since its control tools aren't that great. Finally, I would like to point that a lot of Druid cards have been printed with Innervate in mind and that is the reason why 1 - 3 Mana drops for Druid are mostly bad, so rotating such a card to Wild has more far-reaching consequences than people think.
If we study the VS Data Reaper Live data the only very strong Druid decks right now are Jade Druid and Aggro Druid (this deck doesn't run cards at the center of widespread debate and even though Innervate + Vicious Fledgling is a game-winning play if unanswered I would argue that any 3 drop that can win the game single-handedly and quickly should never be printed in the first place). So the deck that is shaping the meta the most right now is Jade Druid and so as not to cause harm to the whole class for a single archetype's sake (that would anyway be rotating in about 8 months), I think changes should be handled within Jade Druid, if it continues to oppress and shape the meta around itself for a couple more weeks.
Edit: Also keep in mind that Murloc Paladin and Pirate Warrior are performing very well in this same meta and are even enjoying slightly higher winrates according again to VS and are basically the decks they were in Un'Goro. So basically the 4 strongest decks right now are decks from Un'Goro with the strongest KFT cards for each respective archetype slapped into the Un'Goro list, which is also why they are so strong right now (due to how refined they are). The main reason so many are complaining about Druid is its frequency (which can be very frustrating) not exactly its power level. If you play 100 games vs Jade Druid in a day you're bound to see some crazy sh*t.
name a druid deck that doesn't play innervate. if it sees play in aggressive and non aggressive decks then its too good, and its not like its a really nerfable card.
those 3 cards are balanced in their respective classes.
Druid class cards already received a round of nerfs in the past because they where to strong and almost always auto includes.
Innervate somehow escaped a nerf but i think its about time this card hits the nerfbat as well, its a leftover from the op druid class cards area.
Prob fair to also rework / redesign some other class cards from other classes as well.
If it was up to me the class itself would go to the Hall of Fame.
When a "unique" card is as auto include as innervate in every kind of Druid deck I think something needs to be done. It shows just how powerful it is.
Part of the difference between innervate and cards like Frostbolt is, Frostbolt is more of a "I have to get single target spell damage somewhere." Card. It's very good, but just about every class has a direct damage spell. It's a very basic type of card.
Innervate is a very unique effect and has been in every single competitive Druid deck ever.
Ultimate Infestation draws 3
Spreading Plague costs 6
Innervate refreshes 2 mana crystals
Innervate is a pretty powerful card, but sending it to HoF is like sending Fireball, Fiery Axe, High Mane, Eviscerate, Truesilver, flametongue totem, Shadow words, and hellfire to HoF. These cards are all kind of part of their respective class identities.
War Axe is autoinclude in every warrior deck
Fireball is autoinclude in every mage deck
Innervate is fine
Why are people always unhappy about the current state of the game ?
Why do they always have to hate the class that is most powerful in the meta ?
How is having a powerful class a problem ?
I am simple guy . I like to play what's powerful and win . I don't care what class it is . The more "broken" the better . In hearthstone class power always rotated so even if your favorite class is trash right now it will be powerful at some point .
Nobody's really complained about Innervate until this expansion.
And, the card didn't change with this expansion.
So, is the problem with that card, or its synergy with cards from this expansion?
Funny how nobody even thought about this until Reynad brought it up.
"Nerf Paper," said Rock.