There is a big difference between having an impact vs being insane. Fireball is 1 of the strongest Mage cards in the game game and a near auto include in almost every Mage deck. Alex is an 8/8 + 2 Free Fireballs + 1 Free Forgotten Torch (assuming opponent is at 30 health.).
Alex is basically an 8/8 + a 4 mana + 4 mana + 3 mana. Yes, the damage is lower if opponent is under 30 health, but the Freeze Mage is already cool with that since 15 health is easily within striking range for a next turn kill. The crazy thing is that not only is Alex an 8/8 + 4 Mana + 4 Mana + 3 Mana but also has the options to turn those Fireballs + Torch into healing if in a desperate situation. Imagine how broken Fireball would be if tomorrow the Devs decided to make Fireball deal 6 Damage OR Heal 6 Damage, the chat would go crazy thinking the devs had lost their mind (even if the upgraded fireballs could only heal if under 15 health)
If they made fireball do 6 healing instead of 6 damage noone would ever choose the healing option.
Just like how ancient of lore other choice was almost never used when he was 6 Mana 5/5 that heals 10. That is astronomically better than a healing fireball...
Alextrsaza hitting your own face usually means you just lost. If they did enough damage to make you heal, then spending the entire turn healing SOME is basically just setting up their lethal. You rarely come back.
Alexstraza rewards your efforts at board control & punishes overly aggressive builds that can't restore health. You're basically asking for a classic control tool to be nerfed just because it doesn't let you win.
There is a big difference between having an impact vs being insane. Fireball is 1 of the strongest Mage cards in the game game and a near auto include in almost every Mage deck. Alex is an 8/8 + 2 Free Fireballs + 1 Free Forgotten Torch (assuming opponent is at 30 health.).
Alex is basically an 8/8 + a 4 mana + 4 mana + 3 mana. Yes, the damage is lower if opponent is under 30 health, but the Freeze Mage is already cool with that since 15 health is easily within striking range for a next turn kill. The crazy thing is that not only is Alex an 8/8 + 4 Mana + 4 Mana + 3 Mana but also has the options to turn those Fireballs + Torch into healing if in a desperate situation. Imagine how broken Fireball would be if tomorrow the Devs decided to make Fireball deal 6 Damage OR Heal 6 Damage, the chat would go crazy thinking the devs had lost their mind (even if the upgraded fireballs could only heal if under 15 health)
If they made fireball do 6 healing instead of 6 damage noone would ever choose the healing option.
Just like how ancient of lore other choice was almost never used when he was 6 Mana 5/5 that heals 10. That is astronomically better than a healing fireball...
Alextrsaza hitting your own face usually means you just lost. If they did enough damage to make you heal, then spending the entire turn healing SOME is basically just setting up their lethal. You rarely come back.
Alexstraza rewards your efforts at board control & punishes overly aggressive builds that can't restore health. You're basically asking for a classic control tool to be nerfed just because it doesn't let you win.
There is no denying that Fireball would be upgraded if it had a healing option too. Even if only useful 1/20 games would still be considered a buff.
You are mislabelling Alexstraza by just calling it a "Control Tool." Alexstraza is more realistically called an "OTK Tool." The purpose of Alexstraza is almost singlehandedly to let you OTK the opponent the next turn. You even acknowledge this by saying if you have to heal with Alexstraza then basically you have lost since then Mage usually loses the ability OTK you the next Round if they don't have Alex to set your life at 15.
A legendary should be good but should not almost ignore everything opponent has done in the game until that point. Deathwing is the closes comparison to making the prior board state irrelevant but at least Deathwing has a Gigantic discard drawback. Alex though has no Deathwing like Drawback. No matter what your life total in the game, if Alex appears it is being lowered to 15. Heck, Alex even constrains future design somewhat. Even if a card existed to let you heal above 30, you could heal to 10,000 with it just to watch Alex laugh and lower you to 15. Alex completely ignores anything you did in the game prior to it being played in regards to keeping your life points out of lethal range.
It is almost the equivalent to if an 8/8 Legendary existed with the effect "Both Players draw until they hold 3 cards. If a player has more than 3 cards then they randomly discard until only 3 remain. Would this be a balanced card? It would basically make irrelevant any card advantage built by opponent, similar to how Alex makes any of their life preservation irrelevant.
People whining about things is the real cancer of Hearthstone.
So everything is well balanced and people should be cool with it. We should petition HS to return Undertaker to how it used to be. All the whiners caused that perfectly balanced card to be nerfed :(
I spend most of my time play a tempo mage, and I hate losing to freeze mages as much as anyone does, but I don't find them anywhere near as annoying as brainless agro decks like zoo or pirate warrior that will almost always kill you by turn 6 unless you get lucky with both your draws and your rng from missles and flamewakers. And don't even get me started about Murlocodins.
Things is, freeze mage relies on having 3-4 specific cards in hand to stall things in the middle of the game, and if they don't have all of them at the right time or their opponent can play around them, they will lose before they get the chance to play Alex. Push them hard when they don't have a frost nova or blizzard handy and it's usually game over. The real trick is knowing what they have in their deck and forcing them to use key cards to get rid of your minions turns 2-7 instead of being able to throw it at your face, and always holding something to drop right after they clear/freeze the board.
Come to think of it, it's a lot like WOW was back in the early days. Fire mages usually ate freeze mages back then, but died to classes that a freeze mage could destroy (like hunters). Freeze mages are one of the few deck that's really good at countering agro decks, so it doesn't surprise me that people that play agro decks don't much like them. Every class/deck has a counter (except maybe midrange shaman), and running into the deck that counters yours always sucks.
So when a Hunter goes face, everybody spaz's out yelling: huntard Derp smorc me smart. But when a Freeze mage literally bypasses any minion not named Bolf or animated armor with their fuck load of burn spells going face, that's considered smart? Oh but you knew that you should frost nova doomsayer on turn 5 Vs a class that plays minions so that makes you S-M-R-T d'oh. Literally smorcing with your burn spells is so such knowledge!
I'm not saying it's unbeatable, I'm not saying I cross it every game but I am saying that when I do and I'm not playing Control warrior (which is about most of the time) it's just an auto loss. There's nothing around it. Nothing I can do to stop them from clearing my board from all their rng spells and minions and the inevitable Emperor Thaurissuan into Alex into dead.
And for those that think I play "shamturd" or "huntard" or whatever class that isn't mage you want to say; my two most played decks are Control Warrior and Miracle Rogue. Both of which I'd argue require a more turn for turn, 3 steps ahead then freeze mage players claim it is
I'm not blaming the players for playing a deck. Just like I don't blame players for running Secret Hunter, Midrange Shaman, Pirate warrior nor did I hate the players that ran combo druid or Patron warrior... whatever else. My problem is with blizzard going out of their way to completely obliterate any form of deck that resembles OTK ( yes it's an OTK deck when you can burst somebody down from 30 hp. Just like worgen warrior could kill you before the combo if you didn't respond to their active minions). Every single deck has been nerfed to the ground that has resembled an otk. I'm not even going to name them because we all know them at this point. Blizzard acknowledges freeze mage and they continue to feed it. But why? They've stated that tempo/midrange is their ultimate goal for all classes. They made it very fucking clear (at least vocally) that they want fun and interactive above all else. Freeze mage has none of that. Blizzard either needs to bring/allow different OTK decks to life or they need to get rid of them completely. There should be no bias. I
I think I'd rather face off against a Tempo mage a million times before I face off against a Freeze mage and I get irritated playing against tempo mage. But at least tempo mage plays minions, they run out of draw and you can stabilize against them. There is no stabilizing against freeze mage unless you get a burst of 30+ armor.
People are saying a lot about Alex, but you honestly don't NEED it every game. Kobold and emperor allows you to bust people down from 30, which is generally how you beat priest.
There are so many micro decisions in this deck. Don't believe me? Go watch a Laughing steam, or watch Kripp play the deck. Things like having to Ice Lance a minion to prevent a block pop and delaying one more turn, 3 turns before you're able to kill them. It takes a significant amount of planning ahead, burn conservation, and health management in order to win.
Sure, some games you get a God draw and an easy win, but that's the case with most decks from time to time.
I don't agree with this. Just because mistakes are very punishing with Freeze Mage (Or Miracle) it's not skill intensive at all. Maybe it's hard the first few games but nothing more. Patron was skill intensive.
Yes, I hear playing enough board wipes and removals to wait to draw your wombo combo OTK BS is quite the challenge. I also hear zoo is actually a control deck.
Just stop. About the only decks that take an I.Q. of double digits to pilot would likely be miracle or mill. Patron was just freeze mage with the replacement of a 3 mana minion with over 35 attack for Alex.
pirates warrior no prob. Smorc hunter no prob. Freeze mage. Wtf . Cancer deck. Player now day. Confirm play greedy deck ie 30k dust Reno deck. Priest ,mag, warlock etc. Get otk by FM when clearly advantage in board or 10 legendary in hand but no chance to play. They ok with aggro because they just need pray have perfect curve and Reno. They also out value mid range and control. They only counter is OTk deck. Burn them 30-0. So they keep open salt threads.
People whining about things is the real cancer of Hearthstone.
So everything is well balanced and people should be cool with it. We should petition HS to return Undertaker to how it used to be. All the whiners caused that perfectly balanced card to be nerfed :(
I don't think the Undertaker meta is even a comparable point to make. What I see when I read someone's salt post is "I'm super annoyed by this thing, and I want it changed because it irritates me." This speaks to the entitled attitudes that some people have more than anything. Yeah, Freeze Mage can be broken when they draw the nuts and you don't draw what you need. Conversely, Freeze Mage gets wrecked by a lot of more aggressive strategies that aren't Control Warrior when they don't draw consistently. At the end of the day, the match-up isn't unwinnable in most cases. It's a matter of playing smartly and setting yourself up to be in a winning position at each turn. I just wish people wouldn't run to the internet crying IMBA when they could simply adapt their play to account for a strategy that they're losing against.
idk you but i consistently beat freeze mage decks with my cthun druid with a little bit of healing, ramping, big threats just watch while they lack of removal or when using direct damage as a removal and you will see them struggling and conceding XD
As someone who dislikes freeze mage and pretty much has disliked the deck since the beta of this game i actually have to disagree with the notion that the deck should be removed from the game, sure Ice Block is a boring ass card and it's one of those decks that doesn't interact with the opponent in any meaningful way resulting in boring and tedious games...
...but at the same time the deck acts as a strangely specific counter to a bunch of other decks while being completely destroyed by any variants of control warrior. It's the perfect example for the "Rock paper scissors" balancing that Hearthstone and most other card games are build around.
No deck is too powerful as long as there are viable hard counters and when it comes to freeze mage this has always been true. That and the simple fact that the deck isn't even remotely close to the powerlevel it once had with Mad Scientist in the rotation pretty much makes the deck a fine option to play.
So in short: Freeze Mage is healthy because it can beat 8/9 classes and there's really only 1 class that consistently stand a chance?
Sweet lord, how clueless is this thread going to get.
No, freeze mage is not some kind of powerhouse that has a big edge versus 8 out of 9 classes.
As someone who dislikes freeze mage and pretty much has disliked the deck since the beta of this game i actually have to disagree with the notion that the deck should be removed from the game, sure Ice Block is a boring ass card and it's one of those decks that doesn't interact with the opponent in any meaningful way resulting in boring and tedious games...
...but at the same time the deck acts as a strangely specific counter to a bunch of other decks while being completely destroyed by any variants of control warrior. It's the perfect example for the "Rock paper scissors" balancing that Hearthstone and most other card games are build around.
No deck is too powerful as long as there are viable hard counters and when it comes to freeze mage this has always been true. That and the simple fact that the deck isn't even remotely close to the powerlevel it once had with Mad Scientist in the rotation pretty much makes the deck a fine option to play.
So in short: Freeze Mage is healthy because it can beat 8/9 classes and there's really only 1 class that consistently stand a chance?
Sweet lord, how clueless is this thread going to get.
No, freeze mage is not some kind of powerhouse that has a big edge versus 8 out of 9 classes.
For crying out loud.
Freeze Mage has a good MU vs Midrange Shaman. You get the point of this thread now? :P
So in short: Freeze Mage is healthy because it can beat 8/9 classes and there's really only 1 class that consistently stand a chance?
Freeze Mage is a viable option in a specific meta that offers decent win chances against a bunch of decks while being hard countered by one (may even argue a few) archetypes.
That is what balance in card games is. Thats what it is supposed to look like and that is why Freeze Mage is a fine deck that has been nerfed in the past yet remained at a state of viability throughout most of Hearthstones existence.
If you'd stop a moment and think about game design and how card games actually work instead of mindlessly ranting against a certain archetype you happen to dislike you'd certainly see that being the case.
Freeze mage is also an exceptional "seal clubber". It can devastate basic decks or decks in the hand of new players, which where I think most of the complaints come from.
Not that freeze mage is unique in this regard, but of course for a new player the sensation of not being able to do anything can feel fairly unfair, whereas versus other decks that do the same the game can feel more like you had a chance (even though you didn't).
I enjoy playing Freeze Mage, and its part of the paper, rock, scissors equation of this game; not only in match ups but in play style. Not everyone wants to spit out minions on curve, pound face, and bm every two seconds.
ohh my god this is sooo true, also you forgot to add that not everyone wants to play against a deck that spits minions on curve pounds face, and bms every two seconds, in EVERY SINGLE MATCH,
i do enjoy when i play against freeze Mage and Cw wether i win or lose, it gives a little variety other than rofl 1drop, 2 drop 3 drop, curvestone decks people seem so fond of.
As a loyal freeze mage, i have to say that it is not as op as you told. It was a nice deck w/ Mad Scientists, but now playing freeze is WAY more tricky. Especially in aggro meta. Especially with a bad start.
I don't agree with this. Just because mistakes are very punishing with Freeze Mage (Or Miracle) it's not skill intensive at all. Maybe it's hard the first few games but nothing more. Patron was skill intensive.
Yes, I hear playing enough board wipes and removals to wait to draw your wombo combo OTK BS is quite the challenge. I also hear zoo is actually a control deck.
Just stop. About the only decks that take an I.Q. of double digits to pilot would likely be miracle or mill. Patron was just freeze mage with the replacement of a 3 mana minion with over 35 attack for Alex.
I have to say mill seems like the only deck that's actually difficult at all to pilot.
Miracle takes conserving resources while surviving, but is not especially difficult with a good mulligan.
Freeze mage just needs to draw into Doomsayer & freeze. They have to be creative to win in situations where that doesn't happen... but aggro beats us all sometimes.
Patron seemed fun. I never got BRM before the nerf :,(
But how the hell do you mill?? I really have intense problems drawing my opponent into fatigue while not providing them the resources to kill me. I've probably got two wins out of many attempts as mill druid & dozens of losses as mill rogue.
I just wanted to add that I think a lot of people are misusing the term "cancer" to the point it's lost all meaning.
A cancer deck by definition is both OP and everywhere in the meta, freeze mage is neither of these things. For anyone who's actually played freeze mage you know that there are plenty of counters to it and right now in the current meta I've seen zero freeze mages so far.
I personally don't mind facing a competent freeze mage player. It's a hell of a lot more interesting than facing a mindless pirate warrior.
For Freeze Mage, going against an aggro deck, you could be just rushed down before you can draw enough burn or enough ice blocks/barriers to stay alive. Going against Reno/Control you may have to wait til you can get an emperor charge on enough burn spells for OTK, and usually waiting that long can mean you also have plenty of opportunities to lose the game.
After the next expansion, Emperor will be gone so the OTK possibilities are severely diminished and Freeze Mage may see even less play.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
People whining about things is the real cancer of Hearthstone.
I love how freeze mage is still relevant, it's doing well for me on ladder
I spend most of my time play a tempo mage, and I hate losing to freeze mages as much as anyone does, but I don't find them anywhere near as annoying as brainless agro decks like zoo or pirate warrior that will almost always kill you by turn 6 unless you get lucky with both your draws and your rng from missles and flamewakers. And don't even get me started about Murlocodins.
Things is, freeze mage relies on having 3-4 specific cards in hand to stall things in the middle of the game, and if they don't have all of them at the right time or their opponent can play around them, they will lose before they get the chance to play Alex. Push them hard when they don't have a frost nova or blizzard handy and it's usually game over. The real trick is knowing what they have in their deck and forcing them to use key cards to get rid of your minions turns 2-7 instead of being able to throw it at your face, and always holding something to drop right after they clear/freeze the board.
Come to think of it, it's a lot like WOW was back in the early days. Fire mages usually ate freeze mages back then, but died to classes that a freeze mage could destroy (like hunters). Freeze mages are one of the few deck that's really good at countering agro decks, so it doesn't surprise me that people that play agro decks don't much like them. Every class/deck has a counter (except maybe midrange shaman), and running into the deck that counters yours always sucks.
So when a Hunter goes face, everybody spaz's out yelling: huntard Derp smorc me smart. But when a Freeze mage literally bypasses any minion not named Bolf or animated armor with their fuck load of burn spells going face, that's considered smart? Oh but you knew that you should frost nova doomsayer on turn 5 Vs a class that plays minions so that makes you S-M-R-T d'oh. Literally smorcing with your burn spells is so such knowledge!
I'm not saying it's unbeatable, I'm not saying I cross it every game but I am saying that when I do and I'm not playing Control warrior (which is about most of the time) it's just an auto loss. There's nothing around it. Nothing I can do to stop them from clearing my board from all their rng spells and minions and the inevitable Emperor Thaurissuan into Alex into dead.
And for those that think I play "shamturd" or "huntard" or whatever class that isn't mage you want to say; my two most played decks are Control Warrior and Miracle Rogue. Both of which I'd argue require a more turn for turn, 3 steps ahead then freeze mage players claim it is
I'm not blaming the players for playing a deck. Just like I don't blame players for running Secret Hunter, Midrange Shaman, Pirate warrior nor did I hate the players that ran combo druid or Patron warrior... whatever else. My problem is with blizzard going out of their way to completely obliterate any form of deck that resembles OTK ( yes it's an OTK deck when you can burst somebody down from 30 hp. Just like worgen warrior could kill you before the combo if you didn't respond to their active minions). Every single deck has been nerfed to the ground that has resembled an otk. I'm not even going to name them because we all know them at this point. Blizzard acknowledges freeze mage and they continue to feed it. But why? They've stated that tempo/midrange is their ultimate goal for all classes. They made it very fucking clear (at least vocally) that they want fun and interactive above all else. Freeze mage has none of that. Blizzard either needs to bring/allow different OTK decks to life or they need to get rid of them completely. There should be no bias. I
I think I'd rather face off against a Tempo mage a million times before I face off against a Freeze mage and I get irritated playing against tempo mage. But at least tempo mage plays minions, they run out of draw and you can stabilize against them. There is no stabilizing against freeze mage unless you get a burst of 30+ armor.
People are saying a lot about Alex, but you honestly don't NEED it every game. Kobold and emperor allows you to bust people down from 30, which is generally how you beat priest.
There are so many micro decisions in this deck. Don't believe me? Go watch a Laughing steam, or watch Kripp play the deck. Things like having to Ice Lance a minion to prevent a block pop and delaying one more turn, 3 turns before you're able to kill them. It takes a significant amount of planning ahead, burn conservation, and health management in order to win.
Sure, some games you get a God draw and an easy win, but that's the case with most decks from time to time.
pirates warrior no prob. Smorc hunter no prob. Freeze mage. Wtf . Cancer deck. Player now day. Confirm play greedy deck ie 30k dust Reno deck. Priest ,mag, warlock etc. Get otk by FM when clearly advantage in board or 10 legendary in hand but no chance to play. They ok with aggro because they just need pray have perfect curve and Reno. They also out value mid range and control. They only counter is OTk deck. Burn them 30-0. So they keep open salt threads.
idk you but i consistently beat freeze mage decks with my cthun druid with a little bit of healing, ramping, big threats just watch while they lack of removal or when using direct damage as a removal and you will see them struggling and conceding XD
♥ ¡hola mundo! ♥ hello world! ♥ привет мир! ♥ こにちわ せかい! ♥
I've no clue what I'm doing...
i do enjoy when i play against freeze Mage and Cw wether i win or lose, it gives a little variety other than rofl 1drop, 2 drop 3 drop, curvestone decks people seem so fond of.
As a loyal freeze mage, i have to say that it is not as op as you told. It was a nice deck w/ Mad Scientists, but now playing freeze is WAY more tricky. Especially in aggro meta. Especially with a bad start.
I just wanted to add that I think a lot of people are misusing the term "cancer" to the point it's lost all meaning.
A cancer deck by definition is both OP and everywhere in the meta, freeze mage is neither of these things. For anyone who's actually played freeze mage you know that there are plenty of counters to it and right now in the current meta I've seen zero freeze mages so far.
I personally don't mind facing a competent freeze mage player. It's a hell of a lot more interesting than facing a mindless pirate warrior.
For Freeze Mage, going against an aggro deck, you could be just rushed down before you can draw enough burn or enough ice blocks/barriers to stay alive. Going against Reno/Control you may have to wait til you can get an emperor charge on enough burn spells for OTK, and usually waiting that long can mean you also have plenty of opportunities to lose the game.
After the next expansion, Emperor will be gone so the OTK possibilities are severely diminished and Freeze Mage may see even less play.