Nerfs are supposed to make the cards still playable...most of the proposals here are totally ridiculous. Call to Arms a 6 mana card renders the card utterly useless....the goal is to still keep it playable NOT useless!! Same for Tarim and spiteful...
heh, when Blizzard nerfs something, it's never seen again.
Cavern's Below
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Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
I really do not see a need for nerfs, outiside of Naga sea witch. The problem is witchwood did not bring a lot to the table. Right now mage, Druid, paladin, rogue, warlock, and priest have respectable decks to play, so let's look at the classes that fell behind.
Oh, some boring warlock who thinks standard is rich and allows a variety of competitive classes.
Nerfing card is a very simple way to keep the meta rich and diversified.
Warrior is the victim of a forced architype with rush. We have seen this failing before with hand huff paladin and freeze shaman.
Rush Warrior is a victim of Warlock having too strong control tools, removing Warrior or Hunter as possible midrange classes.
Hunter has lagged behind for over a year, due to blizzard trying to give them cards other than aggro. Just look at the Hunter hero power. It's not a control class. Also though druid, pally, and warlock have all did it better over the past year.
Hunter is inferior to warlock for Control, mostly due to Warlock and possibily priest being to good at it. Spell hunter used to be a viable deck, and nerfs to warlock should make control hunter viable.
Finally we have shaman. Shaman has had issues from day one. Even when aggro shaman was running amuck, it was only due to an overstated minions. Shaman has never had a clear idenity. It either feels like a watered down mage or a worse paladin.
Shaman has a lot of problems, including an extremely weak hero power, two "exclusive" keyword where one is a flaw (overload) and one is an impossible to balance mechanic (windfury). Making so that the "heal" totem also heals hero by 1 hp would give a welcome extra boost to shammy. However, that being said, the only time when shaman ws a strong class was when they had good cards that mitigated the downside of overload, such as Tunnel Trogg
I found most proposed chnages to be very bad. Doomguard and Divine Favor are perfectly fine. Warlock heal cards are too good as of now.
Saphire spellstone should cost 5, and deal one less damage. I would still be a played removal with good heal value.
Dark Pact should silence the minion before killing it
Gul'dan should cost 7, and resurrect one random dead demon. The hero power is very good, but then there would be a loss of synergy with Voidlord, making the "South border Wall of Taunts" passable again by big minions.
Kobold Librarian could do 3 damage instead of 2. If the card was neutral, it would be an auto-include in 100% of existing decks
I like your proposal on Tarim, making it change only opponent minions
Improved Paladin Hero power should be about having a 1/2 silver Hand recruit, with all Silver Hands (for example from Muster for Battle). If you craft a deck of Baku Paladin + 29 low tier odd arena cards, you'll get an easy 12 wins. Improved paladin hero power is just too strong for the game value model to handle.
Call to Arms would be fine and played for 5 mana (by by evven Paladin though)
Sonya the Shadow Dancer should be 5/5 and cost 8. This card is degenerate when paired with charge, and should therefore be nerfed into oblivion.
[card]The Caverns below[card] should Make all minions in your deck 5/5 (not the one in your hand, not the one you generate, ...)
Naga Sea Witch should cost 8, like the 8/8 giants she discounts.
Spitefull Summoner should burn the spell it copies. It would therefore slash the late game of greedy Spiteful decks, while still being an interesting card.
Aa a band aid solution, Dirty Rat should be added to the classic set. It's a fun card a sane way to interact against combo decks.
If they implemented ALL of the nerfs you suggested for Paladin it would become a tier 3 and 4 class exclusively :/ Maybe one or 2 but definitely not all, and I think some of them are too harsh. Keep in mind that a simple 1 mana nerf has historically led to completely broken cards being utterly unplayable, so I think 2 mana nerfs are out of the question if we want to keep this cards at all relevant. The proposed change for Spiteful Summoner only works if you either buff its stats or make it cheaper because a random 5 drop or less will statistically be terrible and you'd be better off running almost any other card in its place. The Tarim changes would make the card a tech card against giants in wild and pretty much nothing else, as it would most often be played as a 3/7 taunt that shifts your opponents' minions' stats around (since they'll often have a high and low stat-ed minion by turn 6). The doomguard changes simply aren't happening, regardless of whether or not they are fair so I won't bother talking about them. Finally, Divine Favor won't see the propsed nerf simply because it's only useful against aggro and people running it as a 2-of often end up with one of them being useless. It's a powerful card, for sure, but I think a 2 mana nerf would utterly kill the card since aggro can't afford to spend 5 mana drawing cards and control can't use the card anyway, so the only real options are to leave it alone or completely redesign it.
For the record Paladin is my least favorite class, so no I'm not defending it, but I don't want to see ANY class get nerfed out of the game.
Here is the problem with nerf announcements - it brings the noob game designers out of the woodworks to make silly suggestions like this. Divine Favor - 5 Mana ??? How clueless can OP be?
Divine favor should have costed 5 mana years ago. It's broken in aggro paladin and draws 5+ cards vs. control. As for other nerfs, Naga, sunkeeper, call to arms, spiteful, lacky, DK guldan, etc all need nerfs. Make the DK HP 2 damage, down from 3.
All these nerfs are fine, but you forgot to include either control warlock or quest rogue. These two archetypes need to be addressed for the meta to change significantly.
why Squire for Baku? its already a Tier 2 deck, they could make it a 2/2 silver hand cause theres not synergy with Squires. its not the most problematic deck around hence why tier 2
I actually feel like the optimal nerf would be as described, but having it still COUNT as a recruit.
Sunkeeper Tarim has never been very oppressive and while it's a great legendary, it doesn't need a nerf. So. No to that.
Divine favor does need a nerf. But nerfing it 2 mana is too greedy. It'll suck way too bad. Take for example spreading plague. Nerfed 1 mana and now it seldom sees play. It needs a max draw of like 3 cards.
Changing Paladin hero to summon a different minion would ruin any silver hand synergy. That's kinda their M.O. so, nope.
Call to Arms, again, 2 mana nerf would kill the card entirely. Nerf it's too greedy. Maybe summon only 2 cost cards or only 1 cost cards should suffice.
Spiteful doesn't really need a nerf. It makes the player build a very specific deck and good players can play around it. How it should be nerfed, is just like evolve. Pollute 8 and 10 cost cards with bad statted minions like it was before. So no to this. Wait till other expansions release.
Doomguard was never a serious problem by itself. Even when zoolock exploded back into the meta with k&c. So no nerf needed.
I'm not sure why people can't grasp that some cards are not a problem by themselves. Only when you have other cards to support it, does it become OP. When a card becomes a problem by itself, then yes, nerf. That should be a general rule of thumb when considering nerfs.
How wrong you are
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"The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days..."
Sunkeeper Tarim has never been very oppressive and while it's a great legendary, it doesn't need a nerf. So. No to that.
Divine favor does need a nerf. But nerfing it 2 mana is too greedy. It'll suck way too bad. Take for example spreading plague. Nerfed 1 mana and now it seldom sees play. It needs a max draw of like 3 cards.
Changing Paladin hero to summon a different minion would ruin any silver hand synergy. That's kinda their M.O. so, nope.
Call to Arms, again, 2 mana nerf would kill the card entirely. Nerf it's too greedy. Maybe summon only 2 cost cards or only 1 cost cards should suffice.
Spiteful doesn't really need a nerf. It makes the player build a very specific deck and good players can play around it. How it should be nerfed, is just like evolve. Pollute 8 and 10 cost cards with bad statted minions like it was before. So no to this. Wait till other expansions release.
Doomguard was never a serious problem by itself. Even when zoolock exploded back into the meta with k&c. So no nerf needed.
I'm not sure why people can't grasp that some cards are not a problem by themselves. Only when you have other cards to support it, does it become OP. When a card becomes a problem by itself, then yes, nerf. That should be a general rule of thumb when considering nerfs.
How wrong you are
You say how wrong I am but you don't give any context as to, how I am wrong.
Let's see, Tarim didn't get nerfed. Divine Favor didn't get nerfed. Hero Power upgrade for Paladin didn't get nerfed. Doomguard didn't get nerfed. So, I was clearly right about those.
Spiteful got nerfed only by 1 mana. Which is fine, still going to drop high statted 10 mana cost minions for now until they pollute the pool. Call to Arms got nerfed by 1 mana. Not 2 mana. So, I was right in that regard.
Possessed Lackey which is the reason for Doomguard and Voidlord getting valued out early on, got nerfed. See what I mean when you have "only cards other cards to support it, does it become OP".
So, i'd have to say, I was actually, really close, and almost 100% right about the cards that don't and shouldn't get a nerf.
Here is the problem with nerf announcements - it brings the noob game designers out of the woodworks to make silly suggestions like this. Divine Favor - 5 Mana ??? How clueless can OP be?
Divine favor should have costed 5 mana years ago. It's broken in aggro paladin and draws 5+ cards vs. control. As for other nerfs, Naga, sunkeeper, call to arms, spiteful, lacky, DK guldan, etc all need nerfs. Make the DK HP 2 damage, down from 3.
And how many cards does it draw against another Aggro deck?
Okay, Divine Favor may be bad against aggro decks, but it's not exactly the power level of the card that makes it way too strong. Rather, it's the lack of interactivity, no real skill is required to play this card. You pay 3 mana and you refill your hand, which against control/combo decks is super easy. It's one of those cards that rewards the player for doing nothing, and punishes the other player for actually having a good hand.
Okay, Divine Favor may be bad against aggro decks, but it's not exactly the power level of the card that makes it way too strong. Rather, it's the lack of interactivity, no real skill is required to play this card. You pay 3 mana and you refill your hand, which against control/combo decks is super easy. It's one of those cards that rewards the player for doing nothing, and punishes the other player for actually having a good hand.
I didn't realize a card that is, drawing cards, is supposed to have more activity/skill than just....drawing cards.
Anyways, that aggro deck is meant to fill board, refill hand, refill board. The drawback of this is meant to be smaller, less value minions. Control/combos obviously favor the long term, high value minion/spell plays. It's all basically rock paper scissors. Divine favor has never been a serious issue. Thus not needing a nerf. It's only more recently that it is with other decks getting more draw cards, on top of some of the other draw cards, that it's seeing play. IE :Ultimate Infestation, Kobold Librarian, etc.
Okay, Divine Favor may be bad against aggro decks, but it's not exactly the power level of the card that makes it way too strong. Rather, it's the lack of interactivity, no real skill is required to play this card. You pay 3 mana and you refill your hand, which against control/combo decks is super easy. It's one of those cards that rewards the player for doing nothing, and punishes the other player for actually having a good hand.
Actually one of the skills of playing a Control deck against an Aggro Paladin is figuring out to keep your hand size small to limit the value of DF.
Whining about the card is a tell tale sign of being a bad Control player.
Here is the problem with nerf announcements - it brings the noob game designers out of the woodworks to make silly suggestions like this. Divine Favor - 5 Mana ??? How clueless can OP be?
Divine favor should have costed 5 mana years ago. It's broken in aggro paladin and draws 5+ cards vs. control. As for other nerfs, Naga, sunkeeper, call to arms, spiteful, lacky, DK guldan, etc all need nerfs. Make the DK HP 2 damage, down from 3.
And how many cards does it draw against another Aggro deck?
That is why it is not broken.
1 or 2 cards vs. aggro, but 5+ vs. control. Running two of them is a must except in wild where the meta is 80% aggro, so only 1 is run instead as a wincon vs. the 20% who run slow decks.
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Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
Oh, some boring warlock who thinks standard is rich and allows a variety of competitive classes.
Nerfing card is a very simple way to keep the meta rich and diversified.
Rush Warrior is a victim of Warlock having too strong control tools, removing Warrior or Hunter as possible midrange classes.
Hunter is inferior to warlock for Control, mostly due to Warlock and possibily priest being to good at it. Spell hunter used to be a viable deck, and nerfs to warlock should make control hunter viable.
Shaman has a lot of problems, including an extremely weak hero power, two "exclusive" keyword where one is a flaw (overload) and one is an impossible to balance mechanic (windfury). Making so that the "heal" totem also heals hero by 1 hp would give a welcome extra boost to shammy. However, that being said, the only time when shaman ws a strong class was when they had good cards that mitigated the downside of overload, such as Tunnel Trogg
If they implemented ALL of the nerfs you suggested for Paladin it would become a tier 3 and 4 class exclusively :/ Maybe one or 2 but definitely not all, and I think some of them are too harsh. Keep in mind that a simple 1 mana nerf has historically led to completely broken cards being utterly unplayable, so I think 2 mana nerfs are out of the question if we want to keep this cards at all relevant. The proposed change for Spiteful Summoner only works if you either buff its stats or make it cheaper because a random 5 drop or less will statistically be terrible and you'd be better off running almost any other card in its place. The Tarim changes would make the card a tech card against giants in wild and pretty much nothing else, as it would most often be played as a 3/7 taunt that shifts your opponents' minions' stats around (since they'll often have a high and low stat-ed minion by turn 6). The doomguard changes simply aren't happening, regardless of whether or not they are fair so I won't bother talking about them. Finally, Divine Favor won't see the propsed nerf simply because it's only useful against aggro and people running it as a 2-of often end up with one of them being useless. It's a powerful card, for sure, but I think a 2 mana nerf would utterly kill the card since aggro can't afford to spend 5 mana drawing cards and control can't use the card anyway, so the only real options are to leave it alone or completely redesign it.
For the record Paladin is my least favorite class, so no I'm not defending it, but I don't want to see ANY class get nerfed out of the game.
All of these suggestions are terrible.
People need to stop obsessing over this stupid minutiae and start looking at the root causes of the problem.
All these nerfs are fine, but you forgot to include either control warlock or quest rogue. These two archetypes need to be addressed for the meta to change significantly.
"The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days..."
Okay, Divine Favor may be bad against aggro decks, but it's not exactly the power level of the card that makes it way too strong. Rather, it's the lack of interactivity, no real skill is required to play this card. You pay 3 mana and you refill your hand, which against control/combo decks is super easy. It's one of those cards that rewards the player for doing nothing, and punishes the other player for actually having a good hand.