I've been playing it quite a bit: it gets wrecked by a lot of popular decks out there. Cubelock, Aggro Paladin, Odd Hunter, Tempo Mage and Tempo Rogue all have superior matchups imo.
yeah, 9 mana Shudder is ok for sure, you guys don't see, that the imba is Grumble's battlecry combined with Shudder. Just change their interaction is fine.
if your nerf Shudder the other way - shaman will lose effective control tool
It’s been out for less than 12 hours. The only change it needs NOW is for the animations to be fixed/faster so it doesn’t eat turns. The card doesn’t need a nerf until it’s confirmed that it’s truly unstoppable after like 2 or more weeks of witchwood
I think the spirit of shudderwock is that it is a cool finisher after playing a battlecry focussed deck. Lifedrinker and the chain gang are actually really fun interactions with it, but I think one shudderwock per game should be enough, so I would just make the battlecry:
Repeat all other Battlecries from cards you played this game, then discard all copies of Shudderwock.
This still leaves the option open to get infinite value with Baleful Banker.
Smiteknight is right. If they just changed Saronite's battlecry into "Summon another Saronite Chain Gang" then you wouldn't get the copy. To the best of my knowledge, that's the only way to continuously keep getting the copies (correct me if I'm wrong). But, it's only 9.5 hours into the launch. It'll get countered by other decks. I've played Shudderwock and been dominating, but it does have a lot of conditions in order to win. You need to draw and play all those cards before you can do it, and you need to hope your not against an aggressive deck. Odd Hunter has countered me pretty solid. Hope everyone has a happy launch day. Peace out, homies.
I just think that creating multiple 1/1's that you will receive every turn until your combination works is a bit broken. I believe that the duplicate and return needs to be fixed and that's my opinion. (Animation also.) They can keep getting these 1/1 versions back to their hand to essentially play a 1/1 heal for infinite, damage for infinite, return this infinite back to hand, damage the board for infinite and shuffle a copy in your deck so you don't fatigue for infinite is a little bit much. But maybe that's just me.
I understand the combination takes time to play and set up, but the actual execution and the result of that combination is really a tier above Raza and Exodia mage right now. The only thing keeping shudderwock in check is the aggro on the ladder. I think we either need a change to either the taunts duplication of themselves, (although people will only use the 2/2 legendary to take it back to hand,) or possibly add a tech card like dirty rat (or even a universal gnomeferatu) back into standard play. My issue is that there is literally no way to break apart the combination if you're a slower deck other than switch to an aggro class. At least vs raza you could cheat out their prophet vellen or their raza 10% of the time and just having that small chance was enough to think you have a chance in the long run against the deck.
All control-type decks can struggle with aggro but we have tools to deal with aggro's minions, removals, heals, taunts - and none of these protect us from the shudderwock combination. Not even rogue is safe with his immunity secret considering the shaman heals him self up full in the process and if you're not dead on the first run through of shudderwock then it'll get you in a few turns.
I am so happy shaman is getting some attention but I really think it's a bit much. I hope there can be some happy medium that makes shaman a tier one deck but if you're really lucky you can use something with a low chance to prevent their combo as a slower deck archetype.
I'm not going to sit here and complain that Shudderwock is broken, I personally play a Shudderwock variant, just without the Toast combo with Grumble, Worldshaker and think the card is very fun. However, I do see some issues with interactions as well as resolution time for the Battlecry series to take place. I wanted to offer a constructive thread where we can come up with ideas to take a swing at fixing the combo here, as infinite 1 mana Shudderwocks that keep re-doing Lifedrinker is excessive burst damage that Blizzard has already tried to stay away from.
3. Make Shudderwock have an additional line of text that says "Always costs 9" to just break the combo all together so you can't play multiple after having your board returned, negating Grumble, Worldshakers, or any other discount for that matter, from applying to this card.
4. The one option I absolutely DON'T want to see (as it can be a slippery slope and starts breaking deckbuilding freedom) is to put deck restrictions on certain cards being combined. Basically, if your deck has Shudderwock in it, you cannot also include (insert card making combo over the top such as Grumble or Lifedrinker). This just feelsbadman and hurts the openness of the game, but I guess technically it would solve this specific issue, and hopefully would reserve this type of hit for extremely broken combos. This approach might allow them to print new cards that would normally have a broken effect with another card, but makes the game more confusing for any players, new or old. I list this option last just because I'm approaching all avenues.
Idk, this is all just opinion. Maybe I'm wrong and the combo is fine, it just seems a lil opop to me and I was curious as to all of your input. Any other ideas I didn't think of? I know this slow type of deck can easily be countered by a quick aggro deck (Hand/Murloc Pally, etc.) but I'm trying to come up with ways to resolve the issue without everyone having to resort to smorc and kill control all around. Let's discuss :-)
Take it easy. 1
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
-It's better to have something you don't need, than to need something you don't have
The Shudderwock mechanic as it is simply makes the game not fun. And to me, it’s whole deal... the extended animations dragggggging out turns, and the whole concept of dropping this one minion that gets infinite copies and damage potential. I’ve only played 3 annoying as hell games vs a Shudderwock deck and I’m already sick of it. And yes... I do understand that you can tailor your decks and strategy to win fast to counter this deck... I still think it’s terrible. Something should be done about it imo.
My idea is a kind of stealth nerf to the combo. Make the Shudderwock animation take a little longer and prevent other cards from being played during the animation so that at most 2 can be played in a turn before the time runs out.
I don't know how best to fix it, but when I just beat someone with the combo we had to sit there for a torturous 5 minutes as legions of Shudderwock's talked about their claws and jaws. The game's laughably clunky and unwieldy execution of the combo is proof enough that they did not intend this to be a thing.
As much as I don't like facing combo decks on the ladder in Hearthstone...I think they are needed in the game tho. This is like any other combo deck, and it can be beaten (you don't even need to be heavy agro) but the animation needs to be faster haha
If Blizzard stick to their standard in assessing cards functionality, Shudderwock is definitely a card to be nerfed. Infinite combo that only cost 1 mana per card is by far the most broken thing I've seen.
I believe the question is not how frequent one can pull that off, but the existence of such situation should not have happened in the first place.
I've been playing it quite a bit: it gets wrecked by a lot of popular decks out there. Cubelock, Aggro Paladin, Odd Hunter, Tempo Mage and Tempo Rogue all have superior matchups imo.
So no, it probably won't have to be changed.
yeah, 9 mana Shudder is ok for sure, you guys don't see, that the imba is Grumble's battlecry combined with Shudder. Just change their interaction is fine.
if your nerf Shudder the other way - shaman will lose effective control tool
Heroes never die.
"Can't be reduced in cost"
It’s been out for less than 12 hours. The only change it needs NOW is for the animations to be fixed/faster so it doesn’t eat turns. The card doesn’t need a nerf until it’s confirmed that it’s truly unstoppable after like 2 or more weeks of witchwood
I think the spirit of shudderwock is that it is a cool finisher after playing a battlecry focussed deck. Lifedrinker and the chain gang are actually really fun interactions with it, but I think one shudderwock per game should be enough, so I would just make the battlecry:
Repeat all other Battlecries from cards you played this game, then discard all copies of Shudderwock.
This still leaves the option open to get infinite value with Baleful Banker.
Smiteknight is right. If they just changed Saronite's battlecry into "Summon another Saronite Chain Gang" then you wouldn't get the copy. To the best of my knowledge, that's the only way to continuously keep getting the copies (correct me if I'm wrong). But, it's only 9.5 hours into the launch. It'll get countered by other decks. I've played Shudderwock and been dominating, but it does have a lot of conditions in order to win. You need to draw and play all those cards before you can do it, and you need to hope your not against an aggressive deck. Odd Hunter has countered me pretty solid. Hope everyone has a happy launch day. Peace out, homies.
only 1 change should be made to it... speed up the animations.. nothing else.. it is easily beatable with aggro.
May your days be salty, and your nights bitter! :D
I just think that creating multiple 1/1's that you will receive every turn until your combination works is a bit broken. I believe that the duplicate and return needs to be fixed and that's my opinion. (Animation also.) They can keep getting these 1/1 versions back to their hand to essentially play a 1/1 heal for infinite, damage for infinite, return this infinite back to hand, damage the board for infinite and shuffle a copy in your deck so you don't fatigue for infinite is a little bit much. But maybe that's just me.
I understand the combination takes time to play and set up, but the actual execution and the result of that combination is really a tier above Raza and Exodia mage right now. The only thing keeping shudderwock in check is the aggro on the ladder. I think we either need a change to either the taunts duplication of themselves, (although people will only use the 2/2 legendary to take it back to hand,) or possibly add a tech card like dirty rat (or even a universal gnomeferatu) back into standard play. My issue is that there is literally no way to break apart the combination if you're a slower deck other than switch to an aggro class. At least vs raza you could cheat out their prophet vellen or their raza 10% of the time and just having that small chance was enough to think you have a chance in the long run against the deck.
All control-type decks can struggle with aggro but we have tools to deal with aggro's minions, removals, heals, taunts - and none of these protect us from the shudderwock combination. Not even rogue is safe with his immunity secret considering the shaman heals him self up full in the process and if you're not dead on the first run through of shudderwock then it'll get you in a few turns.
I am so happy shaman is getting some attention but I really think it's a bit much. I hope there can be some happy medium that makes shaman a tier one deck but if you're really lucky you can use something with a low chance to prevent their combo as a slower deck archetype.
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Hey everyone,
I'm not going to sit here and complain that Shudderwock is broken, I personally play a Shudderwock variant, just without the Toast combo with Grumble, Worldshaker and think the card is very fun. However, I do see some issues with interactions as well as resolution time for the Battlecry series to take place. I wanted to offer a constructive thread where we can come up with ideas to take a swing at fixing the combo here, as infinite 1 mana Shudderwocks that keep re-doing Lifedrinker is excessive burst damage that Blizzard has already tried to stay away from.
6 damage for 2 Lifedrinkers, per Shudderwock, which can be doubled by Murmuring Elemental, is now 12 damage per Shudderwock. With them continuously recycling multiple copies due to the combination of Saronite Chain Gang and Grumble, Worldshaker, you could theoretically get 36 dmg off of 3 Shudderwocks. I know this combo takes lots of turns and cards to compile, but this still seems excessive as we have done the same nerfing to combos such as Leeroy Jenkins / Shadowstep, and Warrior charging a la Frothing Berserker, Grim Patron and pre-nerf Warsong Commander.
Here are my ideas for fixing this appropriately to not damage any cards really.
1. Simply make Lifedrinker a Deathrattle, or change the stat/effect ratio to a different cost minion that maybe deals less damage per battlecry?
2. Give Shudderwock the Yogg-Saron, Hope's End treatment and make it so that when Shudderwock has a copy send the original back to hand from Grumble, Worldshaker, the Battlecry ceases.
3. Make Shudderwock have an additional line of text that says "Always costs 9" to just break the combo all together so you can't play multiple after having your board returned, negating Grumble, Worldshakers, or any other discount for that matter, from applying to this card.
4. The one option I absolutely DON'T want to see (as it can be a slippery slope and starts breaking deckbuilding freedom) is to put deck restrictions on certain cards being combined. Basically, if your deck has Shudderwock in it, you cannot also include (insert card making combo over the top such as Grumble or Lifedrinker). This just feelsbadman and hurts the openness of the game, but I guess technically it would solve this specific issue, and hopefully would reserve this type of hit for extremely broken combos. This approach might allow them to print new cards that would normally have a broken effect with another card, but makes the game more confusing for any players, new or old. I list this option last just because I'm approaching all avenues.
Idk, this is all just opinion. Maybe I'm wrong and the combo is fine, it just seems a lil opop to me and I was curious as to all of your input. Any other ideas I didn't think of? I know this slow type of deck can easily be countered by a quick aggro deck (Hand/Murloc Pally, etc.) but I'm trying to come up with ways to resolve the issue without everyone having to resort to smorc and kill control all around. Let's discuss :-)
Take it easy. 1
-It's better to have something you don't need, than to need something you don't have
My jaws that bite, my claws that catch!
My jaws that bite, my claws that catch!
My jaws that bite, my claws that catch!
My jaws that bite, my claws that catch!
My jaws that bite, my claws that catch!
My jaws that bite, my claws that catch!
My jaws that bite, my claws that catch!
etc.
The Shudderwock mechanic as it is simply makes the game not fun. And to me, it’s whole deal... the extended animations dragggggging out turns, and the whole concept of dropping this one minion that gets infinite copies and damage potential. I’ve only played 3 annoying as hell games vs a Shudderwock deck and I’m already sick of it. And yes... I do understand that you can tailor your decks and strategy to win fast to counter this deck... I still think it’s terrible. Something should be done about it imo.
My idea is a kind of stealth nerf to the combo. Make the Shudderwock animation take a little longer and prevent other cards from being played during the animation so that at most 2 can be played in a turn before the time runs out.
Just make Grumble effect deathrattle.
I don't know how best to fix it, but when I just beat someone with the combo we had to sit there for a torturous 5 minutes as legions of Shudderwock's talked about their claws and jaws. The game's laughably clunky and unwieldy execution of the combo is proof enough that they did not intend this to be a thing.
As much as I don't like facing combo decks on the ladder in Hearthstone...I think they are needed in the game tho. This is like any other combo deck, and it can be beaten (you don't even need to be heavy agro) but the animation needs to be faster haha
If Blizzard stick to their standard in assessing cards functionality, Shudderwock is definitely a card to be nerfed. Infinite combo that only cost 1 mana per card is by far the most broken thing I've seen.
I believe the question is not how frequent one can pull that off, but the existence of such situation should not have happened in the first place.
Limit the amount of battle cries for shudder to 5 per turn.
Either grumble triggers at the end of the turn, or lifedrinker should target minions instead
Why u hav to be mad? is only card gaem.
yes broken, they should speed up animations