Not sure if serious, but I'll have to assume so :)
What I mean by swing RNG is that you have a very low chance of drawing Keleseth, and drawing him early affects your winrate enormously, more so than possibly any other card in the game. This is different from drawing for example Valeera in MIracle Rogue, because by the time you can play that card you've likely drawn through a lot of your deck, so luck is less of a factor. It's also different from a card like Frostbolt, as the difference of drawing Frostbolt early as opposed to late is not nearly as great (plus Frostbolt isn't a 1-of). Lastly it doesn't create any meaningful choice, since if you have Keleseth you will snap-play it 99% of the time without a second thought.
Balanced doesn't mean fun. If Hearthstone games were decided by a single coin flip, that would be balanced too, but it wouldn't be fun. Cards like Keleseth brings the game closer to flipping coins, where the outcome is no longer decided by good decisions taken over the course of several turns, but by whether or not your got lucky with your opening hand. There are countless other cards that also play out like this, but Keleseth might be the worst offender at the moment.
Agree with this. Very poorly designed card.
But I do play 3 different decks currently that use the card. As the aggresive tempo style deck is a playstyle I enjoy so I try not to get too hung up on how swingy the card is when drawn early.
Well it's kind of weird how you guys mis use well known terms. The chance to draw a card is of course a form of RNG but it is not an aspect of Prince Keleseth. It is an aspect of every card in every card game . If you do make remarks on it than you shouldn't refer to it as RNG because you imply this is something unique to Prince Keleseth.It is an aspect of all cards in all card games :) Further is the choice you make not if you play Keleseth when drawn. It is in the deckbuilding. When new cartds are released Keleseth will add new options to every single card that comes out. Not many cards have that kind of versatility in the game. Nzoth is probably the most versatile, well designed and well balanced card in Hearthstone to date. I think Keleseth is in the same league. Nzoth is longer around and for sure the better design of the two but not with lightyears between them like there is between nzoth and almost every card. Keleseth's effect changes the core of the game very subtle when played: The raw stats of the cards in your deck. That is so freaking straightfgorward and absolutely not random. Keleseth is card with max strategic possibilities. Finally a non-RNG powerhouse! Intelligent players will benefit the most from Keleseth and that is what every card should be like. Hearthstone would be such a great game with this kind of cards and without all the RNG bullshit.
Yesterday i found out that Lifecoach (That german pro that played in the same team as Thijs) quit playing competetive hearthstone in March. He explained how RNG is destroying hearthstone more and more. the cards almost play themselves . Bad players have great winrates and good players have almost the same winrates.
Crads like Keleseth might be able to get Hearhstone find back some of its identity. Pls don't make wrong statements on it saying it's not a nice card. If you'd see it like it is you'd understand that that statement is saying you want Hearthstone to have a mediocre future expectation. Prince Keleseth is one of the few highlights HS has to offer nowadays. At least respect it. I have an extra love for numbers so I think it feels better to me than to most but a great card it is to all of us.
Nzoth is the heart(h) of mr. Hearthstone, Keleseth is the new brain!
And you know what: Prince Taldaram is absolutley great as well. We will hear so much more from these guys in the future. :D
Not sure if serious, but I'll have to assume so :)
What I mean by swing RNG is that you have a very low chance of drawing Keleseth, and drawing him early affects your winrate enormously, more so than possibly any other card in the game. This is different from drawing for example Valeera in MIracle Rogue, because by the time you can play that card you've likely drawn through a lot of your deck, so luck is less of a factor. It's also different from a card like Frostbolt, as the difference of drawing Frostbolt early as opposed to late is not nearly as great (plus Frostbolt isn't a 1-of). Lastly it doesn't create any meaningful choice, since if you have Keleseth you will snap-play it 99% of the time without a second thought.
Balanced doesn't mean fun. If Hearthstone games were decided by a single coin flip, that would be balanced too, but it wouldn't be fun. Cards like Keleseth brings the game closer to flipping coins, where the outcome is no longer decided by good decisions taken over the course of several turns, but by whether or not your got lucky with your opening hand. There are countless other cards that also play out like this, but Keleseth might be the worst offender at the moment.
Agree with this. Very poorly designed card.
But I do play 3 different decks currently that use the card. As the aggresive tempo style deck is a playstyle I enjoy so I try not to get too hung up on how swingy the card is when drawn early.
Well it's kind of weird how you guys mis use well known terms. The chance to draw a card is of course a form of RNG but it is not an aspect of Prince Keleseth. It is an aspect of every card in every card game . If you do make remarks on it than you shouldn't refer to it as RNG because you imply this is something unique to Prince Keleseth.It is an aspect of all cards in all card games :) Further is the choice you make not if you play Keleseth when drawn. It is in the deckbuilding. When new cartds are released Keleseth will add new options to every single card that comes out. Not many cards have that kind of versatility in the game. Nzoth is probably the most versatile, well designed and well balanced card in Hearthstone to date. I think Keleseth is in the same league. Nzoth is longer around and for sure the better design of the two but not with lightyears between them like there is between nzoth and almost every card. Keleseth's effect changes the core of the game very subtle when played: The raw stats of the cards in your deck. That is so freaking straightfgorward and absolutely not random. Keleseth is card with max strategic possibilities. Finally a non-RNG powerhouse! Intelligent players will benefit the most from Keleseth and that is what every card should be like. Hearthstone would be such a great game with this kind of cards and without all the RNG bullshit.
Yesterday i found out that Lifecoach (That german pro that played in the same team as Thijs) quit playing competetive hearthstone in March. He explained how RNG is destroying hearthstone more and more. the cards almost play themselves . Bad players have great winrates and good players have almost the same winrates.
Crads like Keleseth might be able to get Hearhstone find back some of its identity. Pls don't make wrong statements on it saying it's not a nice card. If you'd see it like it is you'd understand that that statement is saying you want Hearthstone to have a mediocre future expectation. Prince Keleseth is one of the few highlights HS has to offer nowadays. At least respect it. I have an extra love for numbers so I think it feels better to me than to most but a great card it is to all of us.
Nzoth is the heart(h) of mr. Hearthstone, Keleseth is the new brain!
And you know what: Prince Taldaram is absolutley great as well. We will hear so much more from these guys in the future. :D
The issue with Keleseth is that it's a lot like Fiery War Axe or whatever card was for Pirate Warrior, if you get it in your opening hand your winrate increases drastically, something like 10% according to some Trump video in youtube. That's the problematic RNG aspect of it, if you draw it in your opening hand you win simply because Rogue gets tempo very easily and Zoolock already has a lot of cheap minions to play + with the hero power you can always snowball.
It's definately not as bad as pre nerf Small-Time Buccaneer into Fiery War Axe opener for Pirate Warrior which more or less won them the game on the spot, but it's still something to consider. If you manage to win early enough, like turn 6 or 7, then it does make the game very RNG dependent; only what's on your top ~7-8 cards randomly ordered out of your 30 cards matter, and if your opponent has the proper answers for that. I'm probably making it sound worse than it actually is, but any card that can have such a sizeable impact on winrate depending if you draw it on your opening hand or not is dangerous, just look at what happened with Innervate and those stats they showed, that card by itself was very humble and nothing spectacular, until Vicious Fledgling and Innervate could win you games on their own from turn 1 if it went unanswered, and there's probably more examples like pre nerf Undertaker in your opening hand with Hunter, etc.
And no, I'm not precisely talking about drawing the nuts and everything perfectly lining up into your win (something along the lines of your deck living the dream), I'm talking about individual cards affecting winrate so much regardless of the rest of your hand.
The issue with Keleseth is that it's a lot like Fiery War Axe or whatever card was for Pirate Warrior, if you get it in your opening hand your winrate increases drastically, something like 10% according to some Trump video in youtube. That's the problematic RNG aspect of it, if you draw it in your opening hand you win simply because Rogue gets tempo very easily and Zoolock already has a lot of cheap minions to play + with the hero power you can always snowball.
It's definately not as bad as pre nerf Small-Time Buccaneer into Fiery War Axe opener for Pirate Warrior which more or less won them the game on the spot, but it's still something to consider. If you manage to win early enough, like turn 6 or 7, then it does make the game very RNG dependent; only what's on your top ~7-8 cards randomly ordered out of your 30 cards matter, and if your opponent has the proper answers for that. I'm probably making it sound worse than it actually is, but any card that can have such a sizeable impact on winrate depending if you draw it on your opening hand or not is dangerous, just look at what happened with Innervate and those stats they showed, that card by itself was very humble and nothing spectacular, until Vicious Fledgling and Innervate could win you games on their own from turn 1 if it went unanswered, and there's probably more examples like pre nerf Undertaker in your opening hand with Hunter, etc.
And no, I'm not precisely talking about drawing the nuts and everything perfectly lining up into your win (something along the lines of your deck living the dream), I'm talking about individual cards affecting winrate so much regardless of the rest of your hand.
EDIT: spelling
Well, You have a point but the issue you refer to doesn't carry the name RNG. Keleseth is a little bit on the strong side right now. That means Kleseth is maybe not balanced welll enough. Call that it OP or whatever but it's not at all more random than other cards. All cards need to be drawn. It works on every turn not only in your starting hand. I think its refreshing and exciting to see if he attends the party or not! He makes all games more exciting and can be a little on the strong side. Maybe he should have been the 3 drop. Maybe they should switch Taldaram and Keleseth! But believe me..a game with Keleseth opening can be won by the opponent for sure! It needs an all or nothing approach some more then but just set your traps right and Keleseth will stumble :)
The way your deck is ordered at the start of the game IS RNG. It's not RNG card generation like Primordial Glyph, RNG effects like Barnes or Yogg-Saron, Hope's End, RNG discard mechanic or anything of the like, it's just RNG deck ordering. Or are you trying to tell me you can somehow order your deck at any stage of the game? No, you can't (yet), so it completely depends on RNG. Not every type of RNG is equally strong or important, but draw order surely is the most prevalent in almost any deck, and that's why cards like Arcanologist are so strong, guaranteeing to draw a specific card type out of any random card you could just draw off the top of your deck is EXTREMELY good, people always try to build their decks in order to minimize bad opening hands and such. Because imagine you were playing Big Druid/Priest and you drew all your big minions at the start and most expensive cards and had nothing else to play for 6-7 turns other than just hero powering and emoting, that's literally all up to how RNG ordered your deck at the start, and because of that you'll probably end up losing, sheer RNG, and denying it is no use.
I like Prince Keleseth, the idea is fun and it makes some archetypes playable, but when drawing/playing a card on curve can have such a big impact then you have to reconsider if the card is healthy for the game. Again, Prince Keleseth might be perfectly fine, time will tell, but the looks of it right now are that it might be too strong.
Seriously, the win rate of decks shouldn't rely so much on individual cards, but rather the synergy of the deck and the decision making of the player, that's why playing against Razakus, Big Priest, Jade Druid, Pirate Warrior, etc. in general sucks, because you're not losing to better decks, just to unfair cards.
EDIT: correcting the quote, spelling, drinking game take 1 shot everytime RNG is mentioned in this post
And the chance of Kelseleth by turn 2 is roughly 25%. So 25% of the time you play at a significant advantage (as compared to the other 75%).
It's part of why ANY really powerful low cost legendary cards are unhealthy for the game. By that I mean impactful played on curve.
Higher cost legends are not so bad because the odds of drawing them by curve turn increases with cost (and the odds of the opponent drawing an answer also increase) . So the effect becomes more reliable.
This aside worrying about a single card (or deck) is pointless. It is the state of the meta that matters. And meta has improved a lot since the nerfs came down.
As example to clearly illustrate. Imagine instead of giving +1/+1. It said battlecry: win the game. Then games would literally come down to luck of the draw... To the values that come out of the random number generator.
Kelseleth as printed does not instantly win games, but it does increase win rate by a large margin when drawn and played early. This increases the number of predetermined games, where 1 player can't perform any action that would change the game's outcome.
Also Kelseleth does add strategy to deck building. But adds very little strategy to play, as the correct action in most cases is to slap the card down asap.
Of course a card game has a chance to draw a card or not but that says nothing about Prince Keleseth. Stop making this error-thought. Every move in a card game is random because the cards are in an unknown way shuffled into the thing that is called a deck. With your logics every card is defective because of the RNG nature of the game. That is so not true.
RNG is a problem when it's added on purpose like: change this card for a random 6 drop. Now THAT is a situation that can be valued "RNG" aka "Bullshit". Prince Keleseth doesnt suffer from these lame design mechanics. He has a before start of the game known effect so you can make strategic choices in order to exploit the probability of this card a s much as possible. That i can be played earrly makes it strong indeed and that is a known fact as well. It's just a good card. It requires so much more decision making than f.e. Dr. Boom who always messed the board up no matter what and he could be drawn until turn 7. That was an imbalanced piece of booming scum. The Prince is a royal vampire with style.
Keleseth creates Strategy, doesnt add RNG besides the drawing principle of every cardgame.....Thank you.
I see that you're too much of a fanboy to understand why the "royal vampire with style" has issues. Replace it with a 1 mana 1/1 battlecry: win the game. Oh snap! It has no RNG, you already know the effect it does and can make a strategy around it, etc. If you draw it on your opening hand your winrate goes up to a dramatic 100%, and it it still has that much of a big impact at any stage of the game you play it. It really sucks having to make a comparison this dumb to make you understand why it's a very RNG dependant card (dependant, not RNG by itself). Now change it to a 2 mana 2/2 battlecry: once you play this card, your chances of winning this match increases by 10%. Reduce the chance increase by 0.5% every turn that passes. Do you get it better now? The issue isn't the card by itself, it could be anything (and it has been lots of things: Small-Time Buccaneer, Innervate, Undertaker, Fiery War Axe, Kazakus, Dr. Boom, etc.), the issue is that the curvestone style of play makes the game very mechanic and shallow, you just needed the luck of the draw to get what you need and get a lot closer to win, regardless of boardstate, tempo, etc.
I understand and I also despise a lot RNG that generates cards, summon random minions, etc., but this is not the only kind of RNG and cards that become significantly better by draw order are just as bad. Just think of Patches the Pirate, drawing it actually decreases your chances of winning, and you can't control it, it's RNG. When drawing a particular card early on can win you the game, then it's also a disgusting RNG victory.
Simplifying the issue to "every card is defective because of the RNG nature of the game" just shows how badly you're missunderstanding everything we're discussing. Every card of course and undoubtedly effect your winning chance of any given match whenever you play it and draw it (RNG), this is a no brainer and everyone should understand this.
You know what the issue is? When one of the played cards has such a MASSIVE winrate swing EARLY ON in the game.
It gives any slower deck (read: any deck that doesn't plan on finishing the game on turn 6) a huge disadvantage, and against decks that try to win early it literally depends on who draws it first. Remember Aggro Shaman? The mirror was won by anyone who played Tunnel Trogg into Totem Golem first. Against control? Draw those 2 cards first and you had massive chances of winning aswell.
And again, this is nothing against Prince Keleseth in particular, the meta hasn't settled completely, but that's the kind of stuff one has to keep an eye on.
EDIT:
To further prove my point, from this reddit post (almost a month old but statistics shouldn't be too different from now), which tells you the average winrate of the decks when the shown cards are played on curve:
Warlock: Midrange "Zoo" (version with Cobalt Scalebanes and Despicable Dreadlords) 56.97% overall winrate.
Prince Keleseth 71.3%
Flame Imp 60.6%
Acherun Veteran 59.4%
Keleseth Zoo - This isn't Kibler's list, as this one has a metric tonne of 1-drops. The list has 56.22% win-rate, which is relatively fine, but being a whole 5% less than the leading archetype's shows it is still not there yet.
Prince Keleseth 66.8%
Rallying Blade 60.9%
Blessing of Wisdom 57.9%
And as a bonus:
Big Priest, the other new hotness for Priest this expansion is next up, with some entertaining results, boasting an overall 56.06% win-rate, not that far-off behind Razakus.
Barnes 73.6%
Shadow Word: Horror 57.8%
Eternal Servitude 57.3%
Shadow Essence 57.2%
So with Warlock, playing Prince Keleseth on curve gives you +10% winrate all by itself (!!) in comparison to the next cards, on Rogue roughly +4%, but by comparison the next highest 2 have less than 1% difference between them, and Barnes gives you a whooping +16% (!!) winrate if you play him on curve over the next top cards!
Do you understand the issue now? If drawing and playing particular cards can have such a massive effect on your winrate, then the draw order RNG becomes so powerful that games can be easily defined in the opening hand.
I dont get why this is a big deal. So many decks have cards that are reliant on being drawn early as a form of increasing the overall winrate when the cards is drawn, like doomsayer in a control paladin deck and many other cards to specific decks. Keleseth does not "make" the decks he's in, hes simply turning a %50 winrate deck into a %53 by having a %60 winrate when drawn (numbers are made up). You can't look at the luck factor in him being drawn by turn 2, you have to view it as an overall improvement of the deck that is already strong on its own. And even though it feels bad to lose to a turn 1 keleseth shadowstep, it happens very infrequently and unfortunately it's a bummer but it happens to the best of us...move on. Every card in any refined deck is supposed to make the winrate better, and some are cards you need early, and you're lucky when you draw them. It's that simple. Let's take evolve shaman for example. Against Hunter and pirate warrior, drawing maelstrom portal on 2 will significantly boost your winrate, drawing flametongue against mage will do the same, drawing jade claws against murlocs will do the same, drawing bloodsail against mirror is the same. So basically keleseth has the same effect just "neutrally", it's like drawing x card vs x match up except its about drawing keleseth vs every match up. And just to bring out my point a bit more, you can technically view patches in the same way just in reverse. No one complains about the fact that there's rng in not drawing patches, which will SIGNIFICANTLY decrease your winrate, the reason being because it's a big picture thing. You want to add rng/draw dependant cards to your deck just to increase the winrate, not to build the deck around. Keleseth is just exploiting a weakness rogue has in lack of good 2 drops (not inc evis) so youre not really modifing too much to add this level of highroll/rng to the deck. A card like n'zoth on the other had you can completely build your deck around because there isn't really any rng attached to him
I'm done discussing with you. It's clear that you don't understand anything, you discuss examples as main points, you don't seem to understand the concept of win rate % and you don't even bother to understand the hard facts I'm throwing at you disregarding them as "my own thoughts" that I should keep for myself. So you're either very young or just not the kind of person that is open to learn new things.
I'm very sorry for you, and I wish I didn't waste so much time looking up for good information to help you understand better how the game works only for you to reply with nonsense. As some guy once said, discussing with a dumb person is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can pull a great strategy and win, but the pigeon will just shit on the board and walk triumphant.
Diguised Toast put up a youtube video yesterday where he got something like 19 wins in a row from rank 3 to legend using Kaleseth Tempo Rogue. 100% win rate.
Prepare your butts.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
I'm done discussing with you. It's clear that you don't understand anything, you discuss examples as main points, you don't seem to understand the concept of win rate % and you don't even bother to understand the hard facts I'm throwing at you disregarding them as "my own thoughts" that I should keep for myself. So you're either very young or just not the kind of person that is open to learn new things.
I'm very sorry for you, and I wish I didn't waste so much time looking up for good information to help you understand better how the game works only for you to reply with nonsense. As some guy once said, discussing with a dumb person is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can pull a great strategy and win, but the pigeon will just shit on the board and walk triumphant.
Dear Asklerino. Your post is great for understandibg Keleseth power better, even for veteran players like me (beta player). Don’t allow this kid to upset you. Thanks for the post, I get valuable data from it.
It is RNG. Draw randomness is still randomness.
And the chance of Kelseleth by turn 2 is roughly 25%. So 25% of the time you play at a significant advantage (as compared to the other 75%).
It's part of why ANY really powerful low cost legendary cards are unhealthy for the game. By that I mean impactful played on curve.
Higher cost legends are not so bad because the odds of drawing them by curve turn increases with cost (and the odds of the opponent drawing an answer also increase) . So the effect becomes more reliable.
This aside worrying about a single card (or deck) is pointless. It is the state of the meta that matters. And meta has improved a lot since the nerfs came down.
The matches in this game still can be finished by turn 6. This is so boring.
Stop pretending draw randomness is not rng.
As example to clearly illustrate. Imagine instead of giving +1/+1. It said battlecry: win the game. Then games would literally come down to luck of the draw... To the values that come out of the random number generator.
Kelseleth as printed does not instantly win games, but it does increase win rate by a large margin when drawn and played early. This increases the number of predetermined games, where 1 player can't perform any action that would change the game's outcome.
Also Kelseleth does add strategy to deck building. But adds very little strategy to play, as the correct action in most cases is to slap the card down asap.
Rogue: Elemental Tempo Rogue 57.78% overall winrate.
Warlock: Midrange "Zoo" (version with Cobalt Scalebanes and Despicable Dreadlords) 56.97% overall winrate.
Keleseth Zoo - This isn't Kibler's list, as this one has a metric tonne of 1-drops. The list has 56.22% win-rate, which is relatively fine, but being a whole 5% less than the leading archetype's shows it is still not there yet.
And as a bonus:
Big Priest, the other new hotness for Priest this expansion is next up, with some entertaining results, boasting an overall 56.06% win-rate, not that far-off behind Razakus.
So with Warlock, playing Prince Keleseth on curve gives you +10% winrate all by itself (!!) in comparison to the next cards, on Rogue roughly +4%, but by comparison the next highest 2 have less than 1% difference between them, and Barnes gives you a whooping +16% (!!) winrate if you play him on curve over the next top cards!
Do you understand the issue now? If drawing and playing particular cards can have such a massive effect on your winrate, then the draw order RNG becomes so powerful that games can be easily defined in the opening hand.
I dont get why this is a big deal. So many decks have cards that are reliant on being drawn early as a form of increasing the overall winrate when the cards is drawn, like doomsayer in a control paladin deck and many other cards to specific decks. Keleseth does not "make" the decks he's in, hes simply turning a %50 winrate deck into a %53 by having a %60 winrate when drawn (numbers are made up). You can't look at the luck factor in him being drawn by turn 2, you have to view it as an overall improvement of the deck that is already strong on its own. And even though it feels bad to lose to a turn 1 keleseth shadowstep, it happens very infrequently and unfortunately it's a bummer but it happens to the best of us...move on. Every card in any refined deck is supposed to make the winrate better, and some are cards you need early, and you're lucky when you draw them. It's that simple. Let's take evolve shaman for example. Against Hunter and pirate warrior, drawing maelstrom portal on 2 will significantly boost your winrate, drawing flametongue against mage will do the same, drawing jade claws against murlocs will do the same, drawing bloodsail against mirror is the same. So basically keleseth has the same effect just "neutrally", it's like drawing x card vs x match up except its about drawing keleseth vs every match up. And just to bring out my point a bit more, you can technically view patches in the same way just in reverse. No one complains about the fact that there's rng in not drawing patches, which will SIGNIFICANTLY decrease your winrate, the reason being because it's a big picture thing. You want to add rng/draw dependant cards to your deck just to increase the winrate, not to build the deck around. Keleseth is just exploiting a weakness rogue has in lack of good 2 drops (not inc evis) so youre not really modifing too much to add this level of highroll/rng to the deck. A card like n'zoth on the other had you can completely build your deck around because there isn't really any rng attached to him
play wild. Only deck you face is priest. Brann + kazakus combo, raza, emperor, velen + mirage caller combo. Ripperino.
At least you don't face any princes.
Everything that isn't about elephants is irrelephant.
...The problem is not the problem, the problem is your attitude to the problem.
I'm done discussing with you. It's clear that you don't understand anything, you discuss examples as main points, you don't seem to understand the concept of win rate % and you don't even bother to understand the hard facts I'm throwing at you disregarding them as "my own thoughts" that I should keep for myself. So you're either very young or just not the kind of person that is open to learn new things.
I'm very sorry for you, and I wish I didn't waste so much time looking up for good information to help you understand better how the game works only for you to reply with nonsense. As some guy once said, discussing with a dumb person is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can pull a great strategy and win, but the pigeon will just shit on the board and walk triumphant.
Diguised Toast put up a youtube video yesterday where he got something like 19 wins in a row from rank 3 to legend using Kaleseth Tempo Rogue. 100% win rate.
Prepare your butts.
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
Still funnier playing against that then Exodia mage.
And I dusted my Prince Keleseth.
I feel dumb.
(V) (;,,;) (V)