Current statistics (last updated: 17/06/15, 5:52 GMT)
Responses: 1000; games: 7873
Rag: 1937-2266 (total: 4203; win rate of people on reddit: 46%)
Nef: 3008-662 (total: 3670; win rate of people on reddit: 82%)
Overall win rate: Rag: 33%, Nef: 67%
lol. But, the_baby, it's BALANCED! IT IS! /sarcasm
I bet you'll still have people coming in trying to claim that it's perfectly balanced despite those statistics. If those stats are legit, then congrats on making every person who was feverishly defending the matchup as being balanced look like an idiot.
Myself legend vs another legend player tried it out - played over 10 games Nefarian didn't drop a single match. That's all I need to know. Well done Blizz.
It's much easier to win as Nefarian than Ragnaros and if you dare say "I-It's because you don't know how to play!" please remove yourself from your high horse.
Myself legend vs another legend player tried it out - played over 10 games Nefarian didn't drop a single match. That's all I need to know. Well done Blizz.
Basically if Nefarian gets average or above spells, it's a landslide victory. Never even close and it's just sad. There's too many ways for nefarian to deal face damage later in the game.
Okay, so I just played my first two brawl matches and I gotta say this is some BS. My first game I played as Rag and I got absolutely destroyed, I think I only managed to hit for 7 dmg. My second game I played as Nefarian and I win big time, only took 4 dmg the whole game. Why the hell does Nef get a four mana crystal head start? By the time my opponent got to 5 mana and could actually start making some plays, I had the board flooded with Razorgore on it! That's messed up. Nefarian's hero ability got me exactly what I needed in terms of removal every single time. It was the most disappointing, unsatisfying win I've ever got in a card game, ever. I honestly feel bad for anyone who gets stuck with Rag, and if you actually have a positive win record with him, kudos, for you're a better player than I am.
Current statistics (last updated: 17/06/15, 5:52 GMT)
Responses: 1000; games: 7873
Rag: 1937-2266 (total: 4203; win rate of people on reddit: 46%)
Nef: 3008-662 (total: 3670; win rate of people on reddit: 82%)
Overall win rate: Rag: 33%, Nef: 67%
lol. But, the_baby, it's BALANCED! IT IS! /sarcasm
I bet you'll still have people coming in trying to claim that it's perfectly balanced despite those statistics. If those stats are legit, then congrats on making every person who was feverishly defending the matchup as being balanced look like an idiot.
It's just as the other member said, those numbers don't account a lot of circumstantial info.
On top of being worse Rag's a much more skill intensive and less forgiving deck, beginners (in both Tavern AND the game generally speaking) suffer a lot with it and due to this and some frenzy from the community people started to insta-concede when get his hero to play. Even people able to do decently with Rag may actually insta-concede since Nepharian is better for farming.
Having said this, I have the impression the match up is something like 55-45 for Neph. Considering two players of similar skills - at high level, since otherwise Nepharian gets vastly favored in casual level of playing - both have a shot at winning, but Neph's goldfish (aka turn 1 Coin + Vaelastrasz/Razorgore) is almost impossible to beat even with a decent Rag's hand.
Current statistics (last updated: 17/06/15, 5:52 GMT)
Responses: 1000; games: 7873
Rag: 1937-2266 (total: 4203; win rate of people on reddit: 46%)
Nef: 3008-662 (total: 3670; win rate of people on reddit: 82%)
Overall win rate: Rag: 33%, Nef: 67%
lol. But, the_baby, it's BALANCED! IT IS! /sarcasm
I bet you'll still have people coming in trying to claim that it's perfectly balanced despite those statistics. If those stats are legit, then congrats on making every person who was feverishly defending the matchup as being balanced look like an idiot.
It's just as the other member said, those numbers don't account a lot of circumstantial info.
On top of being worse Rag's a much more skill intensive and less forgiving deck, beginners (in both Tavern AND the game generally speaking) suffer a lot with it and due to this and some frenzy from the community people started to insta-concede when get his hero to play. Even people able to do decently with Rag may actually insta-concede since Nepharian is better for farming.
Having said this, I have the impression the match up is something like 55-45 for Neph. Considering two players of similar skills - at high level, since otherwise Nepharian gets vastly favored in casual level of playing - both have a shot at winning, but Neph's goldfish (aka turn 1 Coin + Vaelastrasz/Razorgore) is almost impossible to beat even with a decent Rag's hand.
You can keep saying it's balanced all you want but it doesn't make it true. My Nef 90%+ winrate says hello,.
If you are an average player it's obvious that you'll have a nice winrate with him. Nepharian's deck is both better and easier to play, but it's not as straight forward as some generic Face Hunter deck so if you're above average there's still plenty room to improvements with it - which causes an even larger gap between noob player with Rag~average player with Neph.
Thing is: although Ragnaros is indeed slightly underwhelming, most of the hysteria comes from community's 'Face Hunter' players (sad stereotype).
No they are not balanced but yes the Magma Rager is a very good hero ability in this match up.
The reason why it is NOT balanced: Let's just say both decks are equally good in theory (I kind of believe that too) Nefarian has start combos which nearly insta-win him the game (Ragnaros don't have that) Nefarian can be extremly lucky with his hero ability which makes him sometimes unbeatable but he will never lose because of this. (Ragnaros hero ability can also shoot very lucky but that's nothing compared to the right spells at the right time) Nefarian is way easier to play since it is just who you play every Tempo or Zoo aggro deck.. Just hold board controll and keep the pressure. So you can't do that many mistakes than you can do with the heavy controll Ragnaros.Last but not least, it is nearly impossible for Nefarian to have a absolute useless starting hand while Ragnaros suffer from that every few games.
Okay the starting hand problem is probably supposed to exist and is countered by the fact that Ragnaros has a way better late game but the other 3 advantages still stand and make it kind of unbalanced, especially the sick combos of Nefarian. (If 2 decks are equally strong in 90% of the games but 1 deck has in 10% of the games unbeatable combos it still wins 55% and not 50% which makes it unbalanced..)
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Who can take your trash out? Stomp it down for you? Shake the plastic bag and do the twisty thingy, too?
IMHO I think Nefarian should be slightly nerfed by lowering the initial mana crystal count to just 3( so 4 on turn 1)
The thing is , Nefarian has got quite a number of low cost minion, but for anyone that knows how to play him, all you keep during Mulligan are Vaelastrasz and Chromatic Dragon and all those super solid minions that Rag struggle to contain. As long as you know the trick and don't get truly rubbish card from Wild Magic like Totemic Might and Deadly poison, there's no way you can lose the game. It's almost by design that Rag can almost never win the game unless Nefarian haven't got a single valuable minion on the board at turn 5 and Rag have got more than 20 health left, which is only possible when the Nef player is a fucking moron.
It's almost by design that Rag can almost never win the game unless Nefarian haven't got a single valuable minion on the board at turn 5 and Rag have got more than 20 health left, which is only possible when the Nef player is a fucking moron.
Rag's only chance early us usually to get a good living bomb off and that gets countered by shadowflame. Then it's over because you take 20 more damage setting up the next round of clears and even if you stabilize, you'll be low enough that a good nefarian player will just sit there, wild magic and then alternate flooding the board so he gets to burst you down.
I'm at like 40 brawl wins now, really trying to deconstruct this but people have learned to play tempo with Nefarian and they have learned what to mull for.
The only time rag player wins generally involves sticking a living bomb / lucifron that doesn't get dealt with, followed by at least 1 molten and 1 son of the flame by turn 4-5. Even then it's an uphill battle because your health is low and Nefarian has many cards that can board clear or make multiple minions. That's of course assuming his hero power gets him nothing.
So yaaaah.
I do find that the game are getting longer and closer, but the win rates stay the same. People have just figured out how to beat rag better in a more controled fashion
Just now I beat a rag player who had turn 3 living bomb into turn 4 lucifron, molten, molten. Still wasn't nearly enough. All I did was play magmatron and back it up with blackwing corrupter. Dead by turn 4.
Open the gates mostly means that rag's hero power can't be too relevant later on and it also means that Nef has some way to both board clear and burst later on. He evens get the bonus Rend Blackhand which deals with a bunch of rag's more powerful late game win conditions, for free.
I have to say I've already calculated the odds of getting COMPLETELY USELESS spells as Nef and it's about 9%. You also have a 55% chance to draw removal for Magma Ragers, in addition of having Shadowflame, Bite and Blackwing Corruptor as follow up. (I posted in forum too I think.) As Nef all you need is getting all possible 7/7 on the boards (or just Razorgore) as early as possible and just go face EVERY TIME POSSIBLE while removing Rag minions with external sources. You should never use Flood the Gates/Onyxia after Rag gets its turn 7 since its his board clear turn. Also, you should never use the spell trons unless you can get rid of those in the same turn. Always save Shadowflame for Living Bomb unless it's absolutely neccesary. With a somewhat decent hand + 50% good Wild Magic RNG you can almost always beat Rag around turn 6-8, given that the Rag has absolutely perfect hand and 8-damage RNG.
Note: I do win a lot with Rag as well but it mostly depends on whether the Nef is a good player/has great RNG or not.
How dare you plebeians question our mighty overlord Blizzard! For shame! mr_0range knows what he is talking about.
Vaelastrasz and Wild Magic are balanced. Nefarian should be a regular hero for standard use in ranked mode. Balanced.
I should of listened to mr_0range and played 15 Magma Ragers on turn 2. The Magma Rager that I summoned must have been defective. I would of easily overcame Nefarian. My apologies.
On a more serious note, Nefarian is heavily favored in this Tavern Brawl. One of the problems is that Wild Magic can potentially win the game by itself. One of Ragnaros' win conditions is basically praying that Nefarian does not get anything good from using his hero ability. His hero ability is insanely strong. Summoning a 5/1 Magma Rager or dealing 8 damage to a random enemy pales in comparison.
It's much easier to steamroll your opponent as Nefarian using almost any opening hand. Drawing into Vaelastraz or Razorgore and/or getting a good spell with Wild Magic will solidify you the victory. Whereas for Ragnaros, it is absolutely imperative to get a good opening hand to survive well into the late game. Otherwise, you almost instantly get overwhelmed.
55 wins in, nearing 100% win rate with Nefarian now. Still like 30% with Rag. Whoever is reporting tons of games and high win rates with rag is just deluding themselves in my opinion. If you know what you're doing with Nefarian, you almost cannot lose. And now people know.
Maybe day 1 you could win with rag if you understood the deck really fast, but not now. The win rates are just trending further apart instead of closer together.
The matchup definitely favors Nefarian, there's no denying it. Doesn't mean you can't win with Ragnaros (in fact, I won my first three Tavern Brawls in a row as Ragnaros), it just generally requires better play, better draws for you and worse draws for your opponent.
Noxious played through until he got a hundred wins, and his win rate for Nefarian was about 70%, and for Ragnaros about 50%.
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lol. But, the_baby, it's BALANCED! IT IS! /sarcasm
I bet you'll still have people coming in trying to claim that it's perfectly balanced despite those statistics. If those stats are legit, then congrats on making every person who was feverishly defending the matchup as being balanced look like an idiot.
I got it! The reason Nef is completely overpowered is...
...
NEF IS REALLY JAINA!
Proof
Myself legend vs another legend player tried it out - played over 10 games Nefarian didn't drop a single match. That's all I need to know.
Well done Blizz.
December rank 74 legend :)
It's much easier to win as Nefarian than Ragnaros and if you dare say "I-It's because you don't know how to play!" please remove yourself from your high horse.
Basically if Nefarian gets average or above spells, it's a landslide victory. Never even close and it's just sad. There's too many ways for nefarian to deal face damage later in the game.
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Okay, so I just played my first two brawl matches and I gotta say this is some BS. My first game I played as Rag and I got absolutely destroyed, I think I only managed to hit for 7 dmg. My second game I played as Nefarian and I win big time, only took 4 dmg the whole game. Why the hell does Nef get a four mana crystal head start? By the time my opponent got to 5 mana and could actually start making some plays, I had the board flooded with Razorgore on it! That's messed up. Nefarian's hero ability got me exactly what I needed in terms of removal every single time. It was the most disappointing, unsatisfying win I've ever got in a card game, ever. I honestly feel bad for anyone who gets stuck with Rag, and if you actually have a positive win record with him, kudos, for you're a better player than I am.
YOUR SOUL SHALL SUFFER!!! *plays Wisp* GG!!
It's just as the other member said, those numbers don't account a lot of circumstantial info.
On top of being worse Rag's a much more skill intensive and less forgiving deck, beginners (in both Tavern AND the game generally speaking) suffer a lot with it and due to this and some frenzy from the community people started to insta-concede when get his hero to play. Even people able to do decently with Rag may actually insta-concede since Nepharian is better for farming.
Having said this, I have the impression the match up is something like 55-45 for Neph. Considering two players of similar skills - at high level, since otherwise Nepharian gets vastly favored in casual level of playing - both have a shot at winning, but Neph's goldfish (aka turn 1 Coin + Vaelastrasz/Razorgore) is almost impossible to beat even with a decent Rag's hand.
You can keep saying it's balanced all you want but it doesn't make it true. My Nef 90%+ winrate says hello,.
If you are an average player it's obvious that you'll have a nice winrate with him. Nepharian's deck is both better and easier to play, but it's not as straight forward as some generic Face Hunter deck so if you're above average there's still plenty room to improvements with it - which causes an even larger gap between noob player with Rag~average player with Neph.
Thing is: although Ragnaros is indeed slightly underwhelming, most of the hysteria comes from community's 'Face Hunter' players (sad stereotype).
No they are not balanced but yes the Magma Rager is a very good hero ability in this match up.
The reason why it is NOT balanced:
Let's just say both decks are equally good in theory (I kind of believe that too)
Nefarian has start combos which nearly insta-win him the game (Ragnaros don't have that)
Nefarian can be extremly lucky with his hero ability which makes him sometimes unbeatable but he will never lose because of this. (Ragnaros hero ability can also shoot very lucky but that's nothing compared to the right spells at the right time)
Nefarian is way easier to play since it is just who you play every Tempo or Zoo aggro deck.. Just hold board controll and keep the pressure. So you can't do that many mistakes than you can do with the heavy controll Ragnaros.Last but not least, it is nearly impossible for Nefarian to have a absolute useless starting hand while Ragnaros suffer from that every few games.
Okay the starting hand problem is probably supposed to exist and is countered by the fact that Ragnaros has a way better late game but the other 3 advantages still stand and make it kind of unbalanced, especially the sick combos of Nefarian. (If 2 decks are equally strong in 90% of the games but 1 deck has in 10% of the games unbeatable combos it still wins 55% and not 50% which makes it unbalanced..)
Who can take your trash out?
Stomp it down for you?
Shake the plastic bag
and do the twisty thingy, too?
IMHO I think Nefarian should be slightly nerfed by lowering the initial mana crystal count to just 3( so 4 on turn 1)
The thing is , Nefarian has got quite a number of low cost minion, but for anyone that knows how to play him, all you keep during Mulligan are Vaelastrasz and Chromatic Dragon and all those super solid minions that Rag struggle to contain. As long as you know the trick and don't get truly rubbish card from Wild Magic like Totemic Might and Deadly poison, there's no way you can lose the game. It's almost by design that Rag can almost never win the game unless Nefarian haven't got a single valuable minion on the board at turn 5 and Rag have got more than 20 health left, which is only possible when the Nef player is a fucking moron.
Rag's only chance early us usually to get a good living bomb off and that gets countered by shadowflame.
Then it's over because you take 20 more damage setting up the next round of clears and even if you stabilize, you'll be low enough that a good nefarian player will just sit there, wild magic and then alternate flooding the board so he gets to burst you down.
I'm at like 40 brawl wins now, really trying to deconstruct this but people have learned to play tempo with Nefarian and they have learned what to mull for.
The only time rag player wins generally involves sticking a living bomb / lucifron that doesn't get dealt with, followed by at least 1 molten and 1 son of the flame by turn 4-5.
Even then it's an uphill battle because your health is low and Nefarian has many cards that can board clear or make multiple minions. That's of course assuming his hero power gets him nothing.
So yaaaah.
I do find that the game are getting longer and closer, but the win rates stay the same. People have just figured out how to beat rag better in a more controled fashion
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Just now I beat a rag player who had turn 3 living bomb into turn 4 lucifron, molten, molten.
Still wasn't nearly enough. All I did was play magmatron and back it up with blackwing corrupter. Dead by turn 4.
Open the gates mostly means that rag's hero power can't be too relevant later on and it also means that Nef has some way to both board clear and burst later on. He evens get the bonus Rend Blackhand which deals with a bunch of rag's more powerful late game win conditions, for free.
Just not balanced, sorray blizzurd.
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I have to say I've already calculated the odds of getting COMPLETELY USELESS spells as Nef and it's about 9%. You also have a 55% chance to draw removal for Magma Ragers, in addition of having Shadowflame, Bite and Blackwing Corruptor as follow up. (I posted in forum too I think.) As Nef all you need is getting all possible 7/7 on the boards (or just Razorgore) as early as possible and just go face EVERY TIME POSSIBLE while removing Rag minions with external sources. You should never use Flood the Gates/Onyxia after Rag gets its turn 7 since its his board clear turn. Also, you should never use the spell trons unless you can get rid of those in the same turn. Always save Shadowflame for Living Bomb unless it's absolutely neccesary. With a somewhat decent hand + 50% good Wild Magic RNG you can almost always beat Rag around turn 6-8, given that the Rag has absolutely perfect hand and 8-damage RNG.
Note: I do win a lot with Rag as well but it mostly depends on whether the Nef is a good player/has great RNG or not.
I agree that it is very close but I think that Nef still has the advantage.
How dare you plebeians question our mighty overlord Blizzard! For shame! mr_0range knows what he is talking about.
Vaelastrasz and Wild Magic are balanced. Nefarian should be a regular hero for standard use in ranked mode. Balanced.
I should of listened to mr_0range and played 15 Magma Ragers on turn 2. The Magma Rager that I summoned must have been defective. I would of easily overcame Nefarian. My apologies.
On a more serious note, Nefarian is heavily favored in this Tavern Brawl. One of the problems is that Wild Magic can potentially win the game by itself. One of Ragnaros' win conditions is basically praying that Nefarian does not get anything good from using his hero ability. His hero ability is insanely strong. Summoning a 5/1 Magma Rager or dealing 8 damage to a random enemy pales in comparison.
It's much easier to steamroll your opponent as Nefarian using almost any opening hand. Drawing into Vaelastraz or Razorgore and/or getting a good spell with Wild Magic will solidify you the victory. Whereas for Ragnaros, it is absolutely imperative to get a good opening hand to survive well into the late game. Otherwise, you almost instantly get overwhelmed.
55 wins in, nearing 100% win rate with Nefarian now.
Still like 30% with Rag.
Whoever is reporting tons of games and high win rates with rag is just deluding themselves in my opinion. If you know what you're doing with Nefarian, you almost cannot lose.
And now people know.
Maybe day 1 you could win with rag if you understood the deck really fast, but not now. The win rates are just trending further apart instead of closer together.
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Mirror Entitied my opponents Golemagg and hit him for lethal :^)
If rag gets frozen before his shit expires hes toast tho for real
The matchup definitely favors Nefarian, there's no denying it. Doesn't mean you can't win with Ragnaros (in fact, I won my first three Tavern Brawls in a row as Ragnaros), it just generally requires better play, better draws for you and worse draws for your opponent.
Noxious played through until he got a hundred wins, and his win rate for Nefarian was about 70%, and for Ragnaros about 50%.