Do you guys realize that Magma rager + weapon swing can trade with almost everything Nefarian puts on the table on the first turns? Ragnaros can easily contain Nefarian early game if you know how to play.. with the exception of turn 1 coin + Vaelastrasz which is honestly instawin.
You mean the Magma Rager that gets killed by turn 2 Blackwing Corrupters and/or by other smaller Nefarian's minions? This is why Magma Rager sucks ass in the regular game, and it doesn't stand a chance against a high power level format like this.
Magma is indeed great to remove early threats. Save cards and lose durability every turn. Hero power is necessary for later removal and it sucks when it hits Nefacerian.
You mean the Magma Rager that gets killed by turn 2 Blackwing Corrupters and/or by other smaller Nefarian's minions? This is why Magma Rager sucks ass in the regular game, and it doesn't stand a chance against a high power level format like this.
Yeah.. and then the Blackwing corruptor gets killed by another Magma rager you paid 2 mana without spending a card. Seriously, I've been playing Brawl for a couple of hours now, and Rag is definitely slightly favored in the long run, just like control is usually favorite against aggro.
I have been playing Tavern Brawl more than 60 games. At first, I feel that Ragnaros is way underpowered. However, upon more playing, I found that both are equally balanced. Here's my analysis for both hero.
Early Game :
Early game, Nefarian can push ragnaros by dropping huge minion. However, ragnaros can also drop 2 mana 6/6 taunt, 2 mana 4/5 windfury, 3 mana 6/3 with battlecry deal 6 damage or 2 mana 5/1 depending on what Nefarian drops. Most of nefarian drops have 7 health or less (except razorgore and the 2/8, but you can ignore the 2/8 since you mostly play one card). With 7 health, you can alway clear enemy minion with weapon attack and summon magma rager, or drop taunt.
This means the only way Nefarian can win fast, is by dropping early Vael while Ragnaros is not yet on turn 3, or doesn't have son of flame. OR by dropping early Razorgore. Other than this, Ragnaros can clear it with combination of 2 3 drop and weapon attack (except razorgore, which if coined, you pretty much lost).
Most mistake I see (and I did during early play) as Ragnaros player is a wrong mulligan. You should mulligan away everything other than 6/6 taunt, 6/3 battlecry 6 dmg, 2 mana 4/5 windfury, living bomb, or flame imp (if you are on turn 1). NEVER ever keep the core hound pup spell, as it is too slow and cannot trade well. Sometimes it is good to keep coren direbrew if you have 2 and 3 drop already. Hero powering on turn 2 is also a good way to clear chromatic dragon, because if he spent time to clear it (fish for removal spell or drop corruptor), you get a lot of breathing room, and that is exactly what you need.
As Nefarian player, most mistake I see is keeping 3/5 blackwing technician and 5/3 blackwing corruptor. You should discard everything other than 5/6 mana minion. Do not play hero power before turn 3 (before your mana 8), because you give ragnaros breathing room, he will go to late game where you lost.
Mid Game :
During midgame, Nefarian player relies heavily on spell he get from hero power. His minion is worse than Ragnaros. While ragnaros already have a lot of removal (son of flame, living bomb). If Nefarian can drop razorgore or vael, and ragnaros cannot kill it quickly, you can kill ragnaros before his weapon expires. This is however quite hard to do, because you only have 1 copy of each, and the other card (chromatic drgon, consort, etc) can be easily removed or ignored (3/5 blackwing should always be ignored). On the other hand, ragnaros have 2 living bomb, 2 son of flame, 2 6/6 taunt, 1 coren, and 2 8/8 molten giant. He can turn the tide easily as long as enemy didnt have too many huge minion due to vael or razorgore.
Another note : Ragnaros player can turn the tide by abusing Electron, giving him free pup and draw with flameheart, also clear with flamestrike. That being said, as Nefarian player, you should always clear your own electron during your turn, so you dont let ragnaros get advantage from it. If ragnaros managed to get free pup twice in the same turn, its hard to come back from that, because Nef doesnt have Aoe.
Late Game :
Ragnaros wins, unless he is low enough and Nefarian get lucky spell (burst spell)
Concolusion :
Both hero have very different playstyle, but once you get to know both deck, you can see that both are balanced. Yes you have impression that Nefarian is strong, because his wild magic can be gamebreaking (0-mana mind control/pyro). Also, you have the tendency to keep low cost minion for mulligan (due to experience playing normal mode). This is the important thing, as keeping core hound pup spell or flameheart, moira, blackwing corruptor is almost guaranted your lost.
I found it easier to win as raganaros then as Nefarian Personally. Nefarian will fizzle out in the mid to late game which is just where Rag starts to get going.
I have played 65 total games (so far) and I'd have to disagree, this matchup is not balanced. I personally don't mind the imbalance because it's a fun mode, but based on my winrates nefarian is just so heavily favored over ragnaros.
my stats from 65 games
Ragnaros: 20 wins & 23 losses
Nefarian: 18 wins & 4 losses
overall nefarian won 41 games and ragnaros only won 24.
Ragnaros seems to be getting lower winrate is caused by people don't yet know how to play it correctly. If you have either one of son of flame, 6/6 taunt, living bomb, molten giant, you can almost guaranted to survive till turn 6, unless of course your opponent coined vaeltras and proceed to drop all his card.
Ragnaros is a lot harder to play, but I think he is actually a better one. Because he has many key card, whereas nefaran only had 2 (Vael and Razorgore, and to some extent artamedes). Sometimes you just need to summon molten rager and ignore the minion, forcing him to use mana to remove it, or trade with it next turn.
I found that molten rager is very good at removing early threat. Because you have 60 health, you can ignore blackwing technician, and the 5 attack dragon didnt worry much. Also, by turn 4, you should be able to drop molten giant for free to turn the tide of battle. The only way ragnaros lost is if nefarian have quick start with vael or razorgore, and you didnt drop any of key card (son of flame, 6/6 taunt, living bomb, molten giant).
From my limited experience I could summarize it as below:
1. If nef gets vael + razorgore, it's practically game over. (much like aggro decks getting the perfect start)
2. Unless nef gets early board control with big minions, rag should be able to come back at around his turn 8. Once his hero power become die insect (8 dmg to random enemy), nef's board won't be able to stand it for long.
I found both to be fun. Nefarian's random spells can really spice up the fight (can also make it frustrating to go against) and feels more rushy and rag feels like a control deck without some of its niches (direct removals in particular)
I also thought Nefarian was heavily overpowered at first, but in the end I learned the matchup is more balanced than it seems. I just played until I reached 10 victories (just to see if there was some kind of reward), with these results:
Ragnaros: 6 wins (1 of them my opponent conceded)
Nefarian: 4 wins (3 of them my opponent conceded)
So you see, I got way better results with Ragnaros. It's true that Nefarian can often win by going pure aggro, but there's a point around turn 6 (when Ragnaros changes his hero power) that the match starts turning in his favor. In the lategame Ragnaros has better topdecks and his hero power matters more.
Actually I think it is balanced, because even with a great start Nefarian can die horribly if Rag has something to hold it. Being able to release Golemagg is a really really bad new for Nefarian if he can't take down Rag or the giant that turn (slow down by freezing, sap or vanish also serves). But Rag has big difficulties to get the upper hand in the first turns, usually hoping Nefarian to run out of steam or just holding back until ragnaros hero power and great minions can end with Nefarian by attrition. I think, don't know if really balanced or not, ut fair at least.
I think they are balanced. However, i see another Problem. The whole game is just about, whether Nefarian can kill Rag before the lategame starts or not. Once Rag survives until lategame and clear the board he will win in 98% of all cases. And this is mainly decided in the first 3-4 rounds. This again depends on the Cards you get from the beginning. I don't think there is so much you can do with tactics. For Rag it is pretty much straight farward, what to Play. You hardly see a game where it is really scarce.
Do you guys realize that Magma rager + weapon swing can trade with almost everything Nefarian puts on the table on the first turns? Ragnaros can easily contain Nefarian early game if you know how to play.. with the exception of turn 1 coin + Vaelastrasz which is honestly instawin.
You mean the Magma Rager that gets killed by turn 2 Blackwing Corrupters and/or by other smaller Nefarian's minions? This is why Magma Rager sucks ass in the regular game, and it doesn't stand a chance against a high power level format like this.
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Magma is indeed great to remove early threats. Save cards and lose durability every turn. Hero power is necessary for later removal and it sucks when it hits Nefacerian.
How does Nefarian lose it in late game when he's drawing two cards per turn?
Because that spell he draws is almost always worse than dealing 8 random damage. Do I really have to explain this?
Yeah.. and then the Blackwing corruptor gets killed by another Magma rager you paid 2 mana without spending a card. Seriously, I've been playing Brawl for a couple of hours now, and Rag is definitely slightly favored in the long run, just like control is usually favorite against aggro.
I have been playing Tavern Brawl more than 60 games. At first, I feel that Ragnaros is way underpowered. However, upon more playing, I found that both are equally balanced. Here's my analysis for both hero.
Early Game :
Early game, Nefarian can push ragnaros by dropping huge minion. However, ragnaros can also drop 2 mana 6/6 taunt, 2 mana 4/5 windfury, 3 mana 6/3 with battlecry deal 6 damage or 2 mana 5/1 depending on what Nefarian drops. Most of nefarian drops have 7 health or less (except razorgore and the 2/8, but you can ignore the 2/8 since you mostly play one card). With 7 health, you can alway clear enemy minion with weapon attack and summon magma rager, or drop taunt.
This means the only way Nefarian can win fast, is by dropping early Vael while Ragnaros is not yet on turn 3, or doesn't have son of flame. OR by dropping early Razorgore. Other than this, Ragnaros can clear it with combination of 2 3 drop and weapon attack (except razorgore, which if coined, you pretty much lost).
Most mistake I see (and I did during early play) as Ragnaros player is a wrong mulligan. You should mulligan away everything other than 6/6 taunt, 6/3 battlecry 6 dmg, 2 mana 4/5 windfury, living bomb, or flame imp (if you are on turn 1). NEVER ever keep the core hound pup spell, as it is too slow and cannot trade well. Sometimes it is good to keep coren direbrew if you have 2 and 3 drop already. Hero powering on turn 2 is also a good way to clear chromatic dragon, because if he spent time to clear it (fish for removal spell or drop corruptor), you get a lot of breathing room, and that is exactly what you need.
As Nefarian player, most mistake I see is keeping 3/5 blackwing technician and 5/3 blackwing corruptor. You should discard everything other than 5/6 mana minion. Do not play hero power before turn 3 (before your mana 8), because you give ragnaros breathing room, he will go to late game where you lost.
Mid Game :
During midgame, Nefarian player relies heavily on spell he get from hero power. His minion is worse than Ragnaros. While ragnaros already have a lot of removal (son of flame, living bomb). If Nefarian can drop razorgore or vael, and ragnaros cannot kill it quickly, you can kill ragnaros before his weapon expires. This is however quite hard to do, because you only have 1 copy of each, and the other card (chromatic drgon, consort, etc) can be easily removed or ignored (3/5 blackwing should always be ignored). On the other hand, ragnaros have 2 living bomb, 2 son of flame, 2 6/6 taunt, 1 coren, and 2 8/8 molten giant. He can turn the tide easily as long as enemy didnt have too many huge minion due to vael or razorgore.
Another note : Ragnaros player can turn the tide by abusing Electron, giving him free pup and draw with flameheart, also clear with flamestrike. That being said, as Nefarian player, you should always clear your own electron during your turn, so you dont let ragnaros get advantage from it. If ragnaros managed to get free pup twice in the same turn, its hard to come back from that, because Nef doesnt have Aoe.
Late Game :
Ragnaros wins, unless he is low enough and Nefarian get lucky spell (burst spell)
Concolusion :
Both hero have very different playstyle, but once you get to know both deck, you can see that both are balanced. Yes you have impression that Nefarian is strong, because his wild magic can be gamebreaking (0-mana mind control/pyro). Also, you have the tendency to keep low cost minion for mulligan (due to experience playing normal mode). This is the important thing, as keeping core hound pup spell or flameheart, moira, blackwing corruptor is almost guaranted your lost.
I found it easier to win as raganaros then as Nefarian Personally. Nefarian will fizzle out in the mid to late game which is just where Rag starts to get going.
I have played 65 total games (so far) and I'd have to disagree, this matchup is not balanced. I personally don't mind the imbalance because it's a fun mode, but based on my winrates nefarian is just so heavily favored over ragnaros.
my stats from 65 games
Ragnaros: 20 wins & 23 losses
Nefarian: 18 wins & 4 losses
overall nefarian won 41 games and ragnaros only won 24.
Ragnaros seems to be getting lower winrate is caused by people don't yet know how to play it correctly. If you have either one of son of flame, 6/6 taunt, living bomb, molten giant, you can almost guaranted to survive till turn 6, unless of course your opponent coined vaeltras and proceed to drop all his card.
Ragnaros is a lot harder to play, but I think he is actually a better one. Because he has many key card, whereas nefaran only had 2 (Vael and Razorgore, and to some extent artamedes). Sometimes you just need to summon molten rager and ignore the minion, forcing him to use mana to remove it, or trade with it next turn.
I found that molten rager is very good at removing early threat. Because you have 60 health, you can ignore blackwing technician, and the 5 attack dragon didnt worry much. Also, by turn 4, you should be able to drop molten giant for free to turn the tide of battle. The only way ragnaros lost is if nefarian have quick start with vael or razorgore, and you didnt drop any of key card (son of flame, 6/6 taunt, living bomb, molten giant).
From my limited experience I could summarize it as below:
1. If nef gets vael + razorgore, it's practically game over. (much like aggro decks getting the perfect start)
2. Unless nef gets early board control with big minions, rag should be able to come back at around his turn 8. Once his hero power become die insect (8 dmg to random enemy), nef's board won't be able to stand it for long.
I found both to be fun. Nefarian's random spells can really spice up the fight (can also make it frustrating to go against) and feels more rushy and rag feels like a control deck without some of its niches (direct removals in particular)
Played 6 games and onfortunately had to play with Rag. 6 times... What a struggle was that.
When I won the first time in the 6th match I never replayed brawl. Simple way too imbalanced and not motivating you to play again.
In my experience, I've only lost with nefarian when my opponent has got a perfect start and I got like 0 big minions to play/decent random spells.
Definitely agree with this one. Playing Nefarian's Mind vision (from Wild Magic) for a Golemagg isn't the best feeling either.
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I'm supprised. I played one game for the free pack and won with rag. And I thought I was playing a bot. Lol
Nef beats Rag easy. Period.
I also thought Nefarian was heavily overpowered at first, but in the end I learned the matchup is more balanced than it seems. I just played until I reached 10 victories (just to see if there was some kind of reward), with these results:
Ragnaros: 6 wins (1 of them my opponent conceded)
Nefarian: 4 wins (3 of them my opponent conceded)
So you see, I got way better results with Ragnaros. It's true that Nefarian can often win by going pure aggro, but there's a point around turn 6 (when Ragnaros changes his hero power) that the match starts turning in his favor. In the lategame Ragnaros has better topdecks and his hero power matters more.
All heros are balanced, but some are more balanced than the others
I played like 18 matches, and my results:
Rag: 2 wins vs 2 losses
Nefarian: 4 wins vs 10 losses
Actually I think it is balanced, because even with a great start Nefarian can die horribly if Rag has something to hold it. Being able to release Golemagg is a really really bad new for Nefarian if he can't take down Rag or the giant that turn (slow down by freezing, sap or vanish also serves). But Rag has big difficulties to get the upper hand in the first turns, usually hoping Nefarian to run out of steam or just holding back until ragnaros hero power and great minions can end with Nefarian by attrition. I think, don't know if really balanced or not, ut fair at least.
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I think they are balanced. However, i see another Problem. The whole game is just about, whether Nefarian can kill Rag before the lategame starts or not. Once Rag survives until lategame and clear the board he will win in 98% of all cases. And this is mainly decided in the first 3-4 rounds. This again depends on the Cards you get from the beginning. I don't think there is so much you can do with tactics. For Rag it is pretty much straight farward, what to Play. You hardly see a game where it is really scarce.