We just lost Darkmoon Prizes and that is a huge loss in my opinion. They were random as everything else in this mode, but for me they were also "the great equalizer", always giving you chance to swing your fortune and catch up. Now if you low-roll then... you low-roll and there's not much you can do about it. No way to change hero power, to get divine shield, minion triple or bonus stats.
In my opinion, they should introduce a permanent replacement for prizes. What do you think about it? Was it a good addition to Battlegrounds or the opposite?
It made the meta too highrolly, the person who highrolled the prizes had a significant advantage and the only thing others can do about it was to hope that they don't face the highroller in the lobby.
They were cool for a while, but as of late, I was really getting sick of the flag. Way too many games, where you either had it or you took 10 damage over the next few rounds.
Also, too many Maexxnas with Divine Shield and the like. Again, kinda cool at first, but they oftentimes had a huge impact on who'd win. I'm more sad about Elistra being removed as well. I can kind of see why, considering how it made some builds more consistent than they should perhaps be, and was almost impossible to really play around, but I never disliked the card.
The prizes were really cool and very fun, but I will not miss them. I'm glad they were temporary, just because, like others said, they made the game way too highrolly.
That said... A question I had was about TIckatus. He'll still give a prize right? So, in a way, does that make him *slightly* better now since he's the only hero that will have access to those prizes?
I think the prizes were cool, but I'm also glad to see them go. It'll be sweet as time passes, when perhaps different events show up in a similar way (some kind of a Fire Festival, or Hallow's End), but also when the Darkmoon Faire comes to town again and we get these specific prizes back.
After the 2nd prize round at 10 mana, if you were in a solid position and got a discover and highrolled it with a quality hero, you mostly just needed to close out the game and not die for 1 turn.
And If you didn't --- you might as well concede.
The meta with the prizes was interesting, but it is good it was not permanent. It was very warped and had too much "free candy".
I'm surprised that most people seems to be against prizes. In contrast, I think they were a great addition to the game and BG without them feels to me like a slot machine once again. Weak hero means instant concede, same as low rolls in early and mid game.
The Darkmoon Prizes actually mostly rewarded OP bully heroes: Elise, Janice, Ysera, Omu, Patches, The Secrets Dude allowing them to level up insanely.
It punished hard almost all the other heroes.
If you were winning with one of the non-OP heroes after a Prize round, it was because the OP heroes picked gold coins or something to allow themselves to level faster knowingly taking a hit for a round or 2 to greatly increase the chance of winning the game outright was easily worth it.
Then at 10 mana, you play them and they are stocked with Tier 6 minions and hit you for 32.
Other than the fact that i lost my first 3 games badly, until i could adjust to this new old meta, i don't miss them. It was fun while it lasted but i had enough of them, as the mode eventually became very much "avoid the highroller".
I hope they come up with more seasonal events like this regularly.
I liked the prizes but it's true that they made strong heroes more oppressive. Unfortunately, they were really the only way for the weaker heroes to catch up to the broken ones and occasionally turn the tables on them. Now we are back at the starting point: broken heroes remain broken and garbage heroes remain absolute garbage that can only win with an insane amount of luck. I wish they balanced some other heroes. They did revert the buff on Elise but that's not a good thing. Elise was broken at 2 gold per discover but at 3 gold she is absolutely terrible. They should have just removed her from the Hero pool because she clearly needs a complete rework. Meanwhile, Jandice can just bounce things around for free and gain a huge advantage from a single token. She is definitely the most problematic Hero by far. Also, Millhouse remains incredibly oppressive in the early game.
They did revert the buff on Elise but that's not a good thing. Elise was broken at 2 gold per discover but at 3 gold she is absolutely terrible.
Elise is terrible @ 3 mana? Are you kidding? Discover a Tier 2, Tier 3, Tier 4, Tier 5, Tier 6.
Those triples you are hoping to get do the same thing, except she gets whenever she levels up. You have to triple to try to get a Brann or a Goldrinn or a Kalegos, Elise levels up and maybe it just happens.
Spawn of Nzoth in the early game? For Elise, a lot of times you just get to pick it or you "low roll" and have to pick a bomb or scale dragon instead.
Elise: Buy tokens, maybe get the coin deathrattle minion or the 3 gold Pirate. Try to Level to Tier 4 on 8 mana and Tier 5 on 9 mana (if you have the board presence to support it) and the games are fine.
All they did was make it so she doesn't auto-play for bad players, good players prepare for future turns.
They did revert the buff on Elise but that's not a good thing. Elise was broken at 2 gold per discover but at 3 gold she is absolutely terrible.
Elise is terrible @ 3 mana? Are you kidding? Discover a Tier 2, Tier 3, Tier 4, Tier 5, Tier 6.
Those triples you are hoping to get do the same thing, except she gets whenever she levels up. You have to triple to try to get a Brann or a Goldrinn or a Kalegos, Elise levels up and maybe it just happens.
Spawn of Nzoth in the early game? For Elise, a lot of times you just get to pick it or you "low roll" and have to pick a bomb or scale dragon instead.
Elise: Buy tokens, maybe get the coin deathrattle minion or the 3 gold Pirate. Try to Level to Tier 4 on 8 mana and Tier 5 on 9 mana (if you have the board presence to support it) and the games are fine.
All they did was make it so she doesn't auto-play for bad players, good players prepare for future turns.
Yes, she was terrible (deep bottom of T4) before her buff (which reduced her map cost from 3 to 2 gold) and she is terrible after her recent nerf. By paying 2 gold per map, you were actually getting 2 gold coins for free. One, because obviously minion was cheaper by 1 gold, another one, because you've had access to minion pool from your current, recently upgraded tavern tier, without paying 1 gold for re-roll.
Now though, without minion discount, her value gain is rather meaningless (one free re-roll on every tavern upgrade which is far worse than even T3 Nozdormu). And no. it's not comparable to triple, because triple gives you minion from your current tavern tier +1 for free, while map "gives you" minion from your current tavern tier for 3 gold. It's simply bad.
Look, bad players are going to keep doing the "bad player" thing, and what I say won't matter anyways.
It is true that Elise was low Tier prior to the latest patch, but if you recall the previous meta had Galakrond (evolve a minion for 0 mana) and Queen Togwaggle (1 mana, give your all your minions +2/+1) and it made tons of heros bad including Elise because it was frankly ridiculous.
You have my personal permission to figure out how to continue to be a low MMR player however it best suits you.
I'm glad that the Prizes are gone, they made the meta so much faster, and seemed like there was always at least two or three guys allready on Tavern 5 by 9 gold turn, usually high-roll heroes like Omu or Elise.
I'm not sure how to feel about Elise-nerf, it's good that they nerfed her, but not sure if reverting it back to how it was before was a good thing, because now she is almost unplayable. If you get a token, she's still okay, but even then she's not nearly as good as some people may think. One thing that made Elise so good at 2 gold hero power, was that her leveling curve was insane. The fact that she didn't need token starter to buy two minions on turn 3 and the ability to power level from that point on. And if you did get a token starter, you could level up again on turn 4 and then again on turn 6. Or just follow the curve until turn 7 (9 gold turn), and then go straight to tavern 5 at turn 8. She was just so much more flexible.
Here would be my suggestion to try and balance Elise: Make it so that the 1st map is 1 gold and then it goes up by one gold every time you level up. Like this:
Discover a Tavern 2 minion = 1 gold Discover a Tavern 3 minion = 2 gold Discover a Tavern 4 minion = 3 gold Discover a Tavern 5 minion = 4 gold Discover a Tavern 6 minion = 5 gold
That way she would have significant early-game advantage, where she could possibly power-level in the early turns, but she wouldn't have that same smooth leveling curve on the higher tavern tiers anymore. Here's some theorycrafting about how she could be played if her hero power was as presented above:
Play strategy with token-start: Turn 1 (3 gold) = buy token turn 2 (4 gold) = level up turn 3 (5 gold) = sell token, level up turn 4 (6 gold) = discover 2- and 3-drop, buy one from shop. turn 5 (7 gold) = buy minions turn 6 (8 gold) = level up, discover 4-drop. turn 7 (9 gold) = buy minions turn 8 (10 gold) = level up, sell one, discover 5-drop, hope for high-roll from that point on.
Play strategy without token-start: turn 1 (3 gold) = buy non-token turn 2 (4 gold) = level up turn 3 (5 gold) = buy one minion and discover a 2-drop. turn 4 (6 gold) = if bad minions offered: level up, sell one, discover a 3-drop if good minions offered: buy two. turn 5 (7 gold) = if leveled: buy two if didn't level: level, discover 3-drop, roll turn 6 (8 gold) = buy minions (or possibly level, sell one and discover a 4-drop if you leveled on turn 4) turn 7 (9 gold) = level, discover 4-drop (or buy minions if allready leveled). turn 8 (10 gold) = level up, sell one, discover 4-drop. turn 9 = buy minions turn 10 = probably level up, discover 5-drop.
Or you could just YOLO it and try the Token Strategy without the token too, hoping to high-roll good-enough minions to compansate for the loss of one minion.
Look, bad players are going to keep doing the "bad player" thing, and what I say won't matter anyways.
By "bad player" you mean yourself, right?
If you want to prove your point, maybe start by explaining why paying 3 gold for a minion from your current tavern tier should be considered good by any standards? It literally gives you almost no advantage over regular purchase, except one free re-roll, but only if you use map on your upgrade turn. In fact, her hero power might as well be: After upgrading your tavern, minion pool is refreshed.
I've had MMR as high as 11800 and was just outside the Battlegrounds Top 200 North America and if I hadn't hit a 3 game losing streak I would have been in that list. And maybe I would have made the list, but I wanted to try to master some of the Tier 2 and Tier 3 heros at the time.
If it would make you feel better that you "won" this "internet argument", I shall give you the honor of having the "last words".
If it would make you feel better that you "won" this "internet argument", I shall give you the honor of having the "last words".
No, it won't, I'd rather hear your arguments instead. After her recent nerf everyone but you says that Elise is terrible, so I would like to hear what you have to support your claims. Maybe we'd all learn something from you, because you clearly are better than all of us.
EDIT:
According to HSreplays, she is now bottom of T4...
We just lost Darkmoon Prizes and that is a huge loss in my opinion. They were random as everything else in this mode, but for me they were also "the great equalizer", always giving you chance to swing your fortune and catch up. Now if you low-roll then... you low-roll and there's not much you can do about it. No way to change hero power, to get divine shield, minion triple or bonus stats.
In my opinion, they should introduce a permanent replacement for prizes. What do you think about it? Was it a good addition to Battlegrounds or the opposite?
It made the meta too highrolly, the person who highrolled the prizes had a significant advantage and the only thing others can do about it was to hope that they don't face the highroller in the lobby.
I loved the prizes! I hope they add something similar with the quillboars update
i am glad there removed it i did not like it at all to high roll
They were cool for a while, but as of late, I was really getting sick of the flag. Way too many games, where you either had it or you took 10 damage over the next few rounds.
Also, too many Maexxnas with Divine Shield and the like. Again, kinda cool at first, but they oftentimes had a huge impact on who'd win. I'm more sad about Elistra being removed as well. I can kind of see why, considering how it made some builds more consistent than they should perhaps be, and was almost impossible to really play around, but I never disliked the card.
The prizes were really cool and very fun, but I will not miss them. I'm glad they were temporary, just because, like others said, they made the game way too highrolly.
That said... A question I had was about TIckatus. He'll still give a prize right? So, in a way, does that make him *slightly* better now since he's the only hero that will have access to those prizes?
I think the prizes were cool, but I'm also glad to see them go. It'll be sweet as time passes, when perhaps different events show up in a similar way (some kind of a Fire Festival, or Hallow's End), but also when the Darkmoon Faire comes to town again and we get these specific prizes back.
It's good to see the prizes go.
After the 2nd prize round at 10 mana, if you were in a solid position and got a discover and highrolled it with a quality hero, you mostly just needed to close out the game and not die for 1 turn.
And If you didn't --- you might as well concede.
The meta with the prizes was interesting, but it is good it was not permanent. It was very warped and had too much "free candy".
I'm surprised that most people seems to be against prizes. In contrast, I think they were a great addition to the game and BG without them feels to me like a slot machine once again. Weak hero means instant concede, same as low rolls in early and mid game.
The Darkmoon Prizes actually mostly rewarded OP bully heroes: Elise, Janice, Ysera, Omu, Patches, The Secrets Dude allowing them to level up insanely.
It punished hard almost all the other heroes.
If you were winning with one of the non-OP heroes after a Prize round, it was because the OP heroes picked gold coins or something to allow themselves to level faster knowingly taking a hit for a round or 2 to greatly increase the chance of winning the game outright was easily worth it.
Then at 10 mana, you play them and they are stocked with Tier 6 minions and hit you for 32.
Other than the fact that i lost my first 3 games badly, until i could adjust to this new old meta, i don't miss them. It was fun while it lasted but i had enough of them, as the mode eventually became very much "avoid the highroller".
I hope they come up with more seasonal events like this regularly.
I liked the prizes but it's true that they made strong heroes more oppressive. Unfortunately, they were really the only way for the weaker heroes to catch up to the broken ones and occasionally turn the tables on them. Now we are back at the starting point: broken heroes remain broken and garbage heroes remain absolute garbage that can only win with an insane amount of luck. I wish they balanced some other heroes. They did revert the buff on Elise but that's not a good thing. Elise was broken at 2 gold per discover but at 3 gold she is absolutely terrible. They should have just removed her from the Hero pool because she clearly needs a complete rework. Meanwhile, Jandice can just bounce things around for free and gain a huge advantage from a single token. She is definitely the most problematic Hero by far. Also, Millhouse remains incredibly oppressive in the early game.
Elise is terrible @ 3 mana? Are you kidding? Discover a Tier 2, Tier 3, Tier 4, Tier 5, Tier 6.
Those triples you are hoping to get do the same thing, except she gets whenever she levels up. You have to triple to try to get a Brann or a Goldrinn or a Kalegos, Elise levels up and maybe it just happens.
Spawn of Nzoth in the early game? For Elise, a lot of times you just get to pick it or you "low roll" and have to pick a bomb or scale dragon instead.
Elise: Buy tokens, maybe get the coin deathrattle minion or the 3 gold Pirate. Try to Level to Tier 4 on 8 mana and Tier 5 on 9 mana (if you have the board presence to support it) and the games are fine.
All they did was make it so she doesn't auto-play for bad players, good players prepare for future turns.
Yes, she was terrible (deep bottom of T4) before her buff (which reduced her map cost from 3 to 2 gold) and she is terrible after her recent nerf. By paying 2 gold per map, you were actually getting 2 gold coins for free. One, because obviously minion was cheaper by 1 gold, another one, because you've had access to minion pool from your current, recently upgraded tavern tier, without paying 1 gold for re-roll.
Now though, without minion discount, her value gain is rather meaningless (one free re-roll on every tavern upgrade which is far worse than even T3 Nozdormu). And no. it's not comparable to triple, because triple gives you minion from your current tavern tier +1 for free, while map "gives you" minion from your current tavern tier for 3 gold. It's simply bad.
Look, bad players are going to keep doing the "bad player" thing, and what I say won't matter anyways.
It is true that Elise was low Tier prior to the latest patch, but if you recall the previous meta had Galakrond (evolve a minion for 0 mana) and Queen Togwaggle (1 mana, give your all your minions +2/+1) and it made tons of heros bad including Elise because it was frankly ridiculous.
You have my personal permission to figure out how to continue to be a low MMR player however it best suits you.
I'm glad that the Prizes are gone, they made the meta so much faster, and seemed like there was always at least two or three guys allready on Tavern 5 by 9 gold turn, usually high-roll heroes like Omu or Elise.
I'm not sure how to feel about Elise-nerf, it's good that they nerfed her, but not sure if reverting it back to how it was before was a good thing, because now she is almost unplayable. If you get a token, she's still okay, but even then she's not nearly as good as some people may think. One thing that made Elise so good at 2 gold hero power, was that her leveling curve was insane. The fact that she didn't need token starter to buy two minions on turn 3 and the ability to power level from that point on. And if you did get a token starter, you could level up again on turn 4 and then again on turn 6. Or just follow the curve until turn 7 (9 gold turn), and then go straight to tavern 5 at turn 8. She was just so much more flexible.
Here would be my suggestion to try and balance Elise: Make it so that the 1st map is 1 gold and then it goes up by one gold every time you level up. Like this:
Discover a Tavern 2 minion = 1 gold
Discover a Tavern 3 minion = 2 gold
Discover a Tavern 4 minion = 3 gold
Discover a Tavern 5 minion = 4 gold
Discover a Tavern 6 minion = 5 gold
That way she would have significant early-game advantage, where she could possibly power-level in the early turns, but she wouldn't have that same smooth leveling curve on the higher tavern tiers anymore. Here's some theorycrafting about how she could be played if her hero power was as presented above:
Play strategy with token-start:
Turn 1 (3 gold) = buy token
turn 2 (4 gold) = level up
turn 3 (5 gold) = sell token, level up
turn 4 (6 gold) = discover 2- and 3-drop, buy one from shop.
turn 5 (7 gold) = buy minions
turn 6 (8 gold) = level up, discover 4-drop.
turn 7 (9 gold) = buy minions
turn 8 (10 gold) = level up, sell one, discover 5-drop, hope for high-roll from that point on.
Play strategy without token-start:
turn 1 (3 gold) = buy non-token
turn 2 (4 gold) = level up
turn 3 (5 gold) = buy one minion and discover a 2-drop.
turn 4 (6 gold) =
if bad minions offered: level up, sell one, discover a 3-drop
if good minions offered: buy two.
turn 5 (7 gold) =
if leveled: buy two
if didn't level: level, discover 3-drop, roll
turn 6 (8 gold) = buy minions (or possibly level, sell one and discover a 4-drop if you leveled on turn 4)
turn 7 (9 gold) = level, discover 4-drop (or buy minions if allready leveled).
turn 8 (10 gold) = level up, sell one, discover 4-drop.
turn 9 = buy minions
turn 10 = probably level up, discover 5-drop.
Or you could just YOLO it and try the Token Strategy without the token too, hoping to high-roll good-enough minions to compansate for the loss of one minion.
By "bad player" you mean yourself, right?
If you want to prove your point, maybe start by explaining why paying 3 gold for a minion from your current tavern tier should be considered good by any standards? It literally gives you almost no advantage over regular purchase, except one free re-roll, but only if you use map on your upgrade turn. In fact, her hero power might as well be: After upgrading your tavern, minion pool is refreshed.
I've had MMR as high as 11800 and was just outside the Battlegrounds Top 200 North America and if I hadn't hit a 3 game losing streak I would have been in that list. And maybe I would have made the list, but I wanted to try to master some of the Tier 2 and Tier 3 heros at the time.
If it would make you feel better that you "won" this "internet argument", I shall give you the honor of having the "last words".
No, it won't, I'd rather hear your arguments instead. After her recent nerf everyone but you says that Elise is terrible, so I would like to hear what you have to support your claims. Maybe we'd all learn something from you, because you clearly are better than all of us.
EDIT:
According to HSreplays, she is now bottom of T4...
https://hsreplay.net/battlegrounds/heroes/
But of course this is due to the "bad players"...