The problem is not the amount of draw, but the low manacost. We went from nerfing a 5 mana draw 3, to allowing a 1 mana draw 4.
Half the classes have at least one way of drawing a lot of cards without losing any tempo, so card draw can be used early in the game, allowing even aggressive decks to play with full hands and perfect plays resulting in the curvestone we've been playing for some time.
I think there's definitely too much card draw for some classes, and in particular, card draw that comes with no tempo loss.
The problem is also the imbalance between the classes though. Some classes can draw their entire deck by turn 8 while others have essentially no card draw at all. If you consider that card draw represents consistency (drawing what you want), sustain (the resources to do what you want) and flexibility (the option to choose the best card for the situation), the lack of card draw needs some pretty beefy cards to circumvent the imbalance.
To follow on from my earlier post - lets say card draw is in theory balanced by the power of the cards in a class (i.e. classes with good card draw have less powerfull cards for the same mana cost). A shaman 3 mana cost card should be much "better" than a rogue one. Why? Because they have fewer resources to make use of and limited ability to generate more. It stands to reason then that their cards should do more. The problem is that they dont, and the fact that neutral cards exist effecitvely negates this argument at all.
Imo card draw should come at a tempo cost and should be avialable to all classes. There should be a deck design design in including card draw.
Somewhere along the line fun interactions and crazy moments became preferred to sensible balancing. In Classic HS clear rules were in place regarding what cards could and could not do and minion stats followed a fairly strict format.
In modern HS broken tools are fair game and countered by other broken tools.
I really dislike it from a game design POV but I think it helps promote the addictive nature of the game to the masses.
Well, I just created two spell Lackeys with one Miscreant that both found a Pot of Greed or whatever was the name of that "5-cost" rogue/warrior dual class card again?, while having a 6-attack weapon equipped, and after playing my 2 Pot of Greeds, I suddenly had the two Pot of Greeds in my hand that I put in my deck...so I played two more Pot of Greeds and found 1 Prep and 2 Swindle...
I think that card draw is something that every class should have. However, everybody on the thread saying that card draw is too cheap right now is basically correct. Non-Cantrip card draw should have a cost not only in mana, but in tempo. Aggressive decks should either let themselves go without a hand (like Hunter has had to do for years now) or take time off of aggression to draw cards.
Card draw is a fundamental aspect of the game everybody should be able to do. Just not so easily as Rogue is doing it right now.
I think the designers made a terrible mistake. They decided that control decks were unfun and should be limited. The correct way IMHO to limit them would be to give combo decks better tools.
You could then maintain a healthy meta where all the types of decks could live in balance.
Instead of doing this, they decided to make aggressive decks beat control. So they gave agressive classes tons of draw and stripped draw from the control classes.
Now the meta is simply aggressive deck vs. Aggressive deck. You cant play control, you cant play combo. You just need to pick a really fast deck or a moderately fast deck.
It really sucks if you ask me. But then im exactly the kind of player that blizz is trying to punish.
After playing a fair bit of Classic, it is interesting how the balance of the cards has changed. Note that the format takes place at a time when the game was considered very fair, it was very far from that both right before and right after.
-It was essentially a mid-range burst meta, with a fair share of aggro and some control.
-The burst was absolutely crazy, Warlock could do 16 damage from hand for 2 mana, but all the most powerful decks had fantastic finishers.
-The value generation was almost none-existant, with slow cards like Ysera, Lord Jaraxxus and Hogger as possible exceptions.
-The defensive cards and curve plays were very weak compared to following sets.
There are so many ways to not just draw one or two cards, but sometimes as much as 8 or 9. Do you think that's a problem?
only rogue and dh have nutty draw with the easiest conditions to fulfill. the other classes draw is much more balanced.
Mage?
The problem is not the amount of draw, but the low manacost. We went from nerfing a 5 mana draw 3, to allowing a 1 mana draw 4.
Half the classes have at least one way of drawing a lot of cards without losing any tempo, so card draw can be used early in the game, allowing even aggressive decks to play with full hands and perfect plays resulting in the curvestone we've been playing for some time.
Hopefully the rotation will change that.
I think there's definitely too much card draw for some classes, and in particular, card draw that comes with no tempo loss.
The problem is also the imbalance between the classes though. Some classes can draw their entire deck by turn 8 while others have essentially no card draw at all. If you consider that card draw represents consistency (drawing what you want), sustain (the resources to do what you want) and flexibility (the option to choose the best card for the situation), the lack of card draw needs some pretty beefy cards to circumvent the imbalance.
Yes it's a problem as long as Shamans don't get nearly as much card draw as every other class
To follow on from my earlier post - lets say card draw is in theory balanced by the power of the cards in a class (i.e. classes with good card draw have less powerfull cards for the same mana cost). A shaman 3 mana cost card should be much "better" than a rogue one. Why? Because they have fewer resources to make use of and limited ability to generate more. It stands to reason then that their cards should do more. The problem is that they dont, and the fact that neutral cards exist effecitvely negates this argument at all.
Imo card draw should come at a tempo cost and should be avialable to all classes. There should be a deck design design in including card draw.
Somewhere along the line fun interactions and crazy moments became preferred to sensible balancing. In Classic HS clear rules were in place regarding what cards could and could not do and minion stats followed a fairly strict format.
In modern HS broken tools are fair game and countered by other broken tools.
I really dislike it from a game design POV but I think it helps promote the addictive nature of the game to the masses.
Well, I just created two spell Lackeys with one Miscreant that both found a Pot of Greed or whatever was the name of that "5-cost" rogue/warrior dual class card again?, while having a 6-attack weapon equipped, and after playing my 2 Pot of Greeds, I suddenly had the two Pot of Greeds in my hand that I put in my deck...so I played two more Pot of Greeds and found 1 Prep and 2 Swindle...
So yeah, is that broken enough for Standard?
Shaman and Priest are just sad at this point.
I think that card draw is something that every class should have. However, everybody on the thread saying that card draw is too cheap right now is basically correct. Non-Cantrip card draw should have a cost not only in mana, but in tempo. Aggressive decks should either let themselves go without a hand (like Hunter has had to do for years now) or take time off of aggression to draw cards.
Card draw is a fundamental aspect of the game everybody should be able to do. Just not so easily as Rogue is doing it right now.
please don't bully my son
I think the designers made a terrible mistake. They decided that control decks were unfun and should be limited. The correct way IMHO to limit them would be to give combo decks better tools.
You could then maintain a healthy meta where all the types of decks could live in balance.
Instead of doing this, they decided to make aggressive decks beat control. So they gave agressive classes tons of draw and stripped draw from the control classes.
Now the meta is simply aggressive deck vs. Aggressive deck. You cant play control, you cant play combo. You just need to pick a really fast deck or a moderately fast deck.
It really sucks if you ask me. But then im exactly the kind of player that blizz is trying to punish.
Galavant Animation
After playing a fair bit of Classic, it is interesting how the balance of the cards has changed. Note that the format takes place at a time when the game was considered very fair, it was very far from that both right before and right after.
-It was essentially a mid-range burst meta, with a fair share of aggro and some control.
-The burst was absolutely crazy, Warlock could do 16 damage from hand for 2 mana, but all the most powerful decks had fantastic finishers.
-The value generation was almost none-existant, with slow cards like Ysera, Lord Jaraxxus and Hogger as possible exceptions.
-The defensive cards and curve plays were very weak compared to following sets.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide