So first of all, disclaimer: I play DoL mage and I know that Paladin is a hugely unfavourable matchup.
That being said, I've checked Hsreplay stats and secret paladin Wr for the best deck at the is about 69%, in some matchups even higher. And the worst matchup is... Paladin with overall 57%. I made a long break for playing HS, so I don't know how common it is for one deck to be ao strong. Do you think it because there are stronger decks that haven't been discovered by players yet and in future Paladin will face come kind of counter? Or is the class (or this particular deck) is just way to strong and deaerves nerf? I wonder what you think, guys.
And replaced Argent Braggart with Good Ol' Daddy Two-Shields because I felt like Braggart has no place in this deck, and went 25-5 in diamond ranks climbing to legend super easily (83% wr). My 5 losses were 2x mirror, 2x mage, 1x warlock.
27% vs. paladin, 17% vs. dh, 13% vs. warlock, 10% vs. warrior and mage
I think Blizzard didn't nerf Paladin hard enough, and I also think that we need a minor nerf to Hunter. If you ask me what cards to nerf, I would probably go for Hammer of the Naaru, Northwatch Commander, and especially Hand of A'dal (not sure about Hunter nerfs) not necessarily because they are too strong, but because they are in every paladin list. Crossroads Gossiper would also be a good target imo, but that card is surprisingly underrepresented right now. I reached legend with a 19 ATK Gossiper against token druid. That's certainly an exception, but it can happen. I don't think Crabrider is a problem, but it could become one once they release even more buff support/murloc shaman support.
My suggestions: Hand of A'dal gives +2/+1, Northwatch Commander becomes a 3/3, Hammer of the Naaru summons a 5/5 or becomes a 3/2 weapon. Crabrider maybe to 1/3, Gossiper maybe to "Gets +2/+1 or +1/+2". And something should be done about the 2-mana Libram spell. That card annoys me so much.
And replaced Argent Braggart with Good Ol' Daddy Two-Shields because I felt like Braggart has no place in this deck, and went 25-5 in diamond ranks climbing to legend super easily (83% wr). My 5 losses were 2x mirror, 2x mage, 1x warlock.
27% vs. paladin, 17% vs. dh, 13% vs. warlock, 10% vs. warrior and mage
I think Blizzard didn't nerf Paladin hard enough, and I also think that we need a minor nerf to Hunter. If you ask me what cards to nerf, I would probably go for Hammer of the Naaru, Northwatch Commander, and especially Hand of A'dal (not sure about Hunter nerfs) not necessarily because they are too strong, but because they are in every paladin list. Crossroads Gossiper would also be a good target imo, but that card is surprisingly underrepresented right now. I reached legend with a 19 ATK Gossiper against token druid. That's certainly an exception, but it can happen. I don't think Crabrider is a problem, but it could become one once they release even more buff support/murloc shaman support.
My suggestions: Hand of A'dal gives +2/+1, Northwatch Commander becomes a 3/3, Hammer of the Naaru summons a 5/5 or becomes a 3/2 weapon. Crabrider maybe to 1/3, Gossiper maybe to "Gets +2/+1 or +1/+2". And something should be done about the 2-mana Libram spell. That card annoys me so much.
The Hammer of the Naaru is a strong card of sure, I think that may be the part of the problem is that it's too easy to reset the board with the hammer. For example you clear the board (which on turn 5 most likely filled with Kazakus golems), and the you or your minions get smacked with 3/3 hammer and they get 6/6 taunt on top.
I do think Secret Paladin is a very, very strong deck, but it's not without its weaknesses. I mainly play Control Priest, and what I've noticed from most matches is that it can quickly lose resources and cannot easily compete with threatening minions or boards, due to the lack of Libram of Justice and Pen Flinger or Consecration, as a consequence of using Kazakus instead. As an example, I run Headmaster Kel'Thuzad, and with a well-timed Condemn or other board clear, I can not only clear the board, but also refill mine. Once that happens, the match is usually over, because there's not enough removal in Secret Paladin to deal with that. In another match, I had a Xyrella clear the board, then buffed her the next turn with an Apotheosis. She suddenly became too big for the opponent to deal with, and that won me the match. I also think that a lot of people who play this deck assume they're going to win, and often just throw cards out there without thinking about the potential consequences.
I also play as Doom Shaman or Face Hunter, and those matchups against Secret Paladin, though tricky, aren't too hard to manage. Again, it comes down to the fact that Secret Paladin doesn't really have the tools to clear a board, even with golems, and also can't do anything to stop a buffed Doomhammer (not that most decks can). But again, this is just my experience, and this is not to say that I haven't gotten steamrolled by this deck no matter how well I try to play around it.
One more thing is that playing around Paladin's current selection of secrets is almost impossible for aggro that lacks board clears, and also without some 0-cost spells (the least dangerous to throw into OMY, in my opinion). So, yes, that makes the secrets really frustrating to play around, but truly, they aren't all that bad if you know what to expect. Everyone hates Avenge, for example, but if the board is cleared, Avenge is useless.
tl;dr is that, yes Secret Paladin is very, very strong and its win rate is absurd, but I think people are learning to navigate their decks around its weaknesses, and as those become more apparent, I'm sure its win rate will drop. Does it deserve more nerfs? Probably not, but *maybe* nerfs to Crossroads Gossiper and Crabrider are warranted.
I haven't even thought about Crabrider honestly, but it is very strong base for different paladins buffs and if left unchecked will just murder you. How well does priest manage to deal with Orgemancers? As DoL mage the combo of Ogremancer + Oh my Yogg is extremely difficult to navigate, but again DoL is on the backfoot in this matchup from the get go.
I also don't think Crabrider needs a nerf but the card can be very important in the mirror because it can clear most of the 1-drops and stay on the board as a 1/3 or 1/2 with a Hand of A'dal inc.
I haven't even thought about Crabrider honestly, but it is very strong base for different paladins buffs and if left unchecked will just murder you. How well does priest manage to deal with Orgemancers? As DoL mage the combo of Ogremancer + Oh my Yogg is extremely difficult to navigate, but again DoL is on the backfoot in this matchup from the get go.
Ogremancers can be tricky, but the list I run can usually get rid of them with a combination of Condemn and Holy Smite. I also look for Initiation when discovering cards because a Holy Smite or Rank 3 Condemn + Initiation gets rid of Ogremancers while giving me a copy, which Paladin hates to see. Also, Xyrella can usually deal with Ogremancers very reliably.
I think if Murlocs get more support in general, Crabrider might need to be nerfed, at least to a 1/3. But who knows.
By the way, I want to thank everybody for keeping the discussion civil, honestly I was afraid that this thread would devolve to hunter nerf/tickatus nerf thread or something of that sort. Cheers!
Paladin took advantage of the fact that a lot of players did not adapt after the nerfs and either continued to play Lunacy mage which is now mediocre or tried to push Control Warlock, a weak deck that only beats Priest.
After today's VS report we can expect a tidal wave of Rush warriors starting from the higher ranks and spreading downwards. That deck crushes Paladins who are already weak against Priests.
P.S. Unless you have a subscription to HSreplay that unlocks more filter options their stats mean nothing. I would suggest Vicious Syndicate instead.
Paladin took advantage of the fact that a lot of players did not adapt after the nerfs and either continued to play Lunacy mage which is now mediocre or tried to push Control Warlock, a weak deck that only beats Priest.
After today's VS report we can expect a tidal wave of Rush warriors starting from the higher ranks and spreading downwards. That deck crushes Paladins who are already weak against Priests.
P.S. Unless you have a subscription to HSreplay that unlocks more filter options their stats mean nothing. I would suggest Vicious Syndicate instead.
Lol No! Control warlock is super Strong. the Problem is, it is hard so pilot and lots of people cant play IT right. I crush nearly every deck with it. Even against Paladin (worst matchup) i have a positive winrate...(btw. Playing on Legend and piloted IT to legend)
To add to this, I think that control warlock still hasn't found the perfect balance between early game interaction and finishers. When I play the deck, I often get the impression that I would need 2-3 additional early removal tools in my deck. It's pretty easy to fall behind with traditional ctrl warlock lists, so much so that I even thought about adding 2x Unstable Felbolt.
Paladin took advantage of the fact that a lot of players did not adapt after the nerfs and either continued to play Lunacy mage which is now mediocre or tried to push Control Warlock, a weak deck that only beats Priest.
After today's VS report we can expect a tidal wave of Rush warriors starting from the higher ranks and spreading downwards. That deck crushes Paladins who are already weak against Priests.
P.S. Unless you have a subscription to HSreplay that unlocks more filter options their stats mean nothing. I would suggest Vicious Syndicate instead.
Could you specify what kind of filters do you mean? I'm not a premium user, hell I've started using hsreplay not so long ago so I'm not very keen in its innerworkings.
Could you specify what kind of filters do you mean? I'm not a premium user, hell I've started using hsreplay not so long ago so I'm not very keen in its innerworkings.
Filtering the results for higher ranks allows you to filter out games of players that might not know how their deck works or what the opponent's deck can do, giving you a more reliable result. Afaik, without premium HSreplay does not allow you to do that.
Additionally it is always better to filter the results to a more recent timeframe instead of seeing everything since the first day of the patch when people were still experimenting with suboptimal versions of each deck.
In general the fact that you can find decks with extremely high or low winrates is a good indicator that the data has not been filtered properly (or at all).
The problem with Pali is that it is WAY too versatile and it's Libram/secret package allows the class to "have its cake and eat it too" so to speak. The secrets are extremely disruptive towards early game tempo for the opposition and the Sword allows them to get them out in quick succession which gives them extreme flexibility in their mulligans.
If you are able to fight through their early game then the class easily transitions to a control play style with sizeable taunts, buffs and heals (at a discount no less) which can all be reloaded at the end of the game while keeping their mana discounts.
I think easiest solution is to increase Libram of Hope to 9 or 10 mana. I don't think any other cards are truly overpowering but the ability to heal 8 and summon a sizeable threat for anywhere between 3-5 mana up to 4 times is way too powerful. If you're changing those costs to around 5-7 mana then that would help tone down the control aspects of the deck.
LIbrams allow continual mana cheating. Secrets in comparison are suprisingly fair - they tend to result in power turns that some people don't like, but if you can answer on said power turn, they blow through their resources very quickly.
Librams are different, and to give you an idea of how busted they are consider the 5/3 lifesteal libram weapon that no one runs - this could cost 1 mana....a 5/3 lifesteal 1 mana weapon ..and it doesn't make the cut. They remind me a bit of jades...just continual benefit for doing the simple play over and over and over and eventually your opponents resistance crumbles.
It annoys me no end that watchposts got nerfed, which were useful neutral midrange tools and libram paladin is untouched, possibly to some extent because librams + watchposts was as busted as anything...but Librams remain and still are busted. And boring.
Could you specify what kind of filters do you mean? I'm not a premium user, hell I've started using hsreplay not so long ago so I'm not very keen in its innerworkings.
Filtering the results for higher ranks allows you to filter out games of players that might not know how their deck works or what the opponent's deck can do, giving you a more reliable result. Afaik, without premium HSreplay does not allow you to do that.
Additionally it is always better to filter the results to a more recent timeframe instead of seeing everything since the first day of the patch when people were still experimenting with suboptimal versions of each deck.
In general the fact that you can find decks with extremely high or low winrates is a good indicator that the data has not been filtered properly (or at all).
I see, I looked more into my own winrate via decktracker history and I have 52% wr against paladin, which doesn't say much because a played it at below diamond ranks and I had about 50 games or so in total. Come to think of it, it doesn't look so unfavourable as I though (the WR of paladin vs mage was like 75% when I looked at it but now I understand that I missed a lot of factors that made these stats pretty much useless).
upd. I got my own stats wrong and my deck was kind of junk to begin with, so my own perception and the stats taken out of context lead me to the conclusion that was quite ignorant (can conclusion even be ignorant? I don't know but I hope you get my point).
I don’t know what winrate Pally got in so called hi legend. Actually i don’t care. Hearthstone is not for few hundreds of pro players. It’s for millions. And those millions don’t like when every second game is against OP deck with over 60 percent winrate. It’s complete rubbish. So the question is not if Pally too strong but WHEN they nerf it! Or give us option to BAN one class you don’t want to play against. At least for Legend players.
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So first of all, disclaimer: I play DoL mage and I know that Paladin is a hugely unfavourable matchup.
That being said, I've checked Hsreplay stats and secret paladin Wr for the best deck at the is about 69%, in some matchups even higher. And the worst matchup is... Paladin with overall 57%. I made a long break for playing HS, so I don't know how common it is for one deck to be ao strong. Do you think it because there are stronger decks that haven't been discovered by players yet and in future Paladin will face come kind of counter? Or is the class (or this particular deck) is just way to strong and deaerves nerf? I wonder what you think, guys.
Depends on what you consider too strong or broken, but I would agree that its winrate is too high right now.
Just to give you an example: I took this list: https://hsreplay.net/decks/pLAQ05b357ZTPrQ5cSrD6c/#gameType=RANKED_STANDARD
And replaced Argent Braggart with Good Ol' Daddy Two-Shields because I felt like Braggart has no place in this deck, and went 25-5 in diamond ranks climbing to legend super easily (83% wr). My 5 losses were 2x mirror, 2x mage, 1x warlock.
27% vs. paladin, 17% vs. dh, 13% vs. warlock, 10% vs. warrior and mage
I think Blizzard didn't nerf Paladin hard enough, and I also think that we need a minor nerf to Hunter. If you ask me what cards to nerf, I would probably go for Hammer of the Naaru, Northwatch Commander, and especially Hand of A'dal (not sure about Hunter nerfs) not necessarily because they are too strong, but because they are in every paladin list. Crossroads Gossiper would also be a good target imo, but that card is surprisingly underrepresented right now. I reached legend with a 19 ATK Gossiper against token druid. That's certainly an exception, but it can happen. I don't think Crabrider is a problem, but it could become one once they release even more buff support/murloc shaman support.
My suggestions: Hand of A'dal gives +2/+1, Northwatch Commander becomes a 3/3, Hammer of the Naaru summons a 5/5 or becomes a 3/2 weapon. Crabrider maybe to 1/3, Gossiper maybe to "Gets +2/+1 or +1/+2". And something should be done about the 2-mana Libram spell. That card annoys me so much.
The Hammer of the Naaru is a strong card of sure, I think that may be the part of the problem is that it's too easy to reset the board with the hammer. For example you clear the board (which on turn 5 most likely filled with Kazakus golems), and the you or your minions get smacked with 3/3 hammer and they get 6/6 taunt on top.
I do think Secret Paladin is a very, very strong deck, but it's not without its weaknesses. I mainly play Control Priest, and what I've noticed from most matches is that it can quickly lose resources and cannot easily compete with threatening minions or boards, due to the lack of Libram of Justice and Pen Flinger or Consecration, as a consequence of using Kazakus instead. As an example, I run Headmaster Kel'Thuzad, and with a well-timed Condemn or other board clear, I can not only clear the board, but also refill mine. Once that happens, the match is usually over, because there's not enough removal in Secret Paladin to deal with that. In another match, I had a Xyrella clear the board, then buffed her the next turn with an Apotheosis. She suddenly became too big for the opponent to deal with, and that won me the match. I also think that a lot of people who play this deck assume they're going to win, and often just throw cards out there without thinking about the potential consequences.
I also play as Doom Shaman or Face Hunter, and those matchups against Secret Paladin, though tricky, aren't too hard to manage. Again, it comes down to the fact that Secret Paladin doesn't really have the tools to clear a board, even with golems, and also can't do anything to stop a buffed Doomhammer (not that most decks can). But again, this is just my experience, and this is not to say that I haven't gotten steamrolled by this deck no matter how well I try to play around it.
One more thing is that playing around Paladin's current selection of secrets is almost impossible for aggro that lacks board clears, and also without some 0-cost spells (the least dangerous to throw into OMY, in my opinion). So, yes, that makes the secrets really frustrating to play around, but truly, they aren't all that bad if you know what to expect. Everyone hates Avenge, for example, but if the board is cleared, Avenge is useless.
tl;dr is that, yes Secret Paladin is very, very strong and its win rate is absurd, but I think people are learning to navigate their decks around its weaknesses, and as those become more apparent, I'm sure its win rate will drop. Does it deserve more nerfs? Probably not, but *maybe* nerfs to Crossroads Gossiper and Crabrider are warranted.
Paladin is literally the best everywhere except Top 200. Need to be nerfed few more times.
I haven't even thought about Crabrider honestly, but it is very strong base for different paladins buffs and if left unchecked will just murder you. How well does priest manage to deal with Orgemancers? As DoL mage the combo of Ogremancer + Oh my Yogg is extremely difficult to navigate, but again DoL is on the backfoot in this matchup from the get go.
I also don't think Crabrider needs a nerf but the card can be very important in the mirror because it can clear most of the 1-drops and stay on the board as a 1/3 or 1/2 with a Hand of A'dal inc.
Ogremancers can be tricky, but the list I run can usually get rid of them with a combination of Condemn and Holy Smite. I also look for Initiation when discovering cards because a Holy Smite or Rank 3 Condemn + Initiation gets rid of Ogremancers while giving me a copy, which Paladin hates to see. Also, Xyrella can usually deal with Ogremancers very reliably.
I think if Murlocs get more support in general, Crabrider might need to be nerfed, at least to a 1/3. But who knows.
By the way, I want to thank everybody for keeping the discussion civil, honestly I was afraid that this thread would devolve to hunter nerf/tickatus nerf thread or something of that sort. Cheers!
Paladin took advantage of the fact that a lot of players did not adapt after the nerfs and either continued to play Lunacy mage which is now mediocre or tried to push Control Warlock, a weak deck that only beats Priest.
After today's VS report we can expect a tidal wave of Rush warriors starting from the higher ranks and spreading downwards. That deck crushes Paladins who are already weak against Priests.
P.S. Unless you have a subscription to HSreplay that unlocks more filter options their stats mean nothing. I would suggest Vicious Syndicate instead.
nope
What nope ?
Lol No! Control warlock is super Strong. the Problem is, it is hard so pilot and lots of people cant play IT right. I crush nearly every deck with it. Even against Paladin (worst matchup) i have a positive winrate...(btw. Playing on Legend and piloted IT to legend)
To add to this, I think that control warlock still hasn't found the perfect balance between early game interaction and finishers. When I play the deck, I often get the impression that I would need 2-3 additional early removal tools in my deck. It's pretty easy to fall behind with traditional ctrl warlock lists, so much so that I even thought about adding 2x Unstable Felbolt.
Could you specify what kind of filters do you mean? I'm not a premium user, hell I've started using hsreplay not so long ago so I'm not very keen in its innerworkings.
Filtering the results for higher ranks allows you to filter out games of players that might not know how their deck works or what the opponent's deck can do, giving you a more reliable result. Afaik, without premium HSreplay does not allow you to do that.
Additionally it is always better to filter the results to a more recent timeframe instead of seeing everything since the first day of the patch when people were still experimenting with suboptimal versions of each deck.
In general the fact that you can find decks with extremely high or low winrates is a good indicator that the data has not been filtered properly (or at all).
The problem with Pali is that it is WAY too versatile and it's Libram/secret package allows the class to "have its cake and eat it too" so to speak. The secrets are extremely disruptive towards early game tempo for the opposition and the Sword allows them to get them out in quick succession which gives them extreme flexibility in their mulligans.
If you are able to fight through their early game then the class easily transitions to a control play style with sizeable taunts, buffs and heals (at a discount no less) which can all be reloaded at the end of the game while keeping their mana discounts.
I think easiest solution is to increase Libram of Hope to 9 or 10 mana. I don't think any other cards are truly overpowering but the ability to heal 8 and summon a sizeable threat for anywhere between 3-5 mana up to 4 times is way too powerful. If you're changing those costs to around 5-7 mana then that would help tone down the control aspects of the deck.
LIbrams allow continual mana cheating. Secrets in comparison are suprisingly fair - they tend to result in power turns that some people don't like, but if you can answer on said power turn, they blow through their resources very quickly.
Librams are different, and to give you an idea of how busted they are consider the 5/3 lifesteal libram weapon that no one runs - this could cost 1 mana....a 5/3 lifesteal 1 mana weapon ..and it doesn't make the cut. They remind me a bit of jades...just continual benefit for doing the simple play over and over and over and eventually your opponents resistance crumbles.
It annoys me no end that watchposts got nerfed, which were useful neutral midrange tools and libram paladin is untouched, possibly to some extent because librams + watchposts was as busted as anything...but Librams remain and still are busted. And boring.
I see, I looked more into my own winrate via decktracker history and I have 52% wr against paladin, which doesn't say much because a played it at below diamond ranks and I had about 50 games or so in total. Come to think of it, it doesn't look so unfavourable as I though (the WR of paladin vs mage was like 75% when I looked at it but now I understand that I missed a lot of factors that made these stats pretty much useless).
upd. I got my own stats wrong and my deck was kind of junk to begin with, so my own perception and the stats taken out of context lead me to the conclusion that was quite ignorant (can conclusion even be ignorant? I don't know but I hope you get my point).
I don’t know what winrate Pally got in so called hi legend. Actually i don’t care. Hearthstone is not for few hundreds of pro players. It’s for millions. And those millions don’t like when every second game is against OP deck with over 60 percent winrate. It’s complete rubbish. So the question is not if Pally too strong but WHEN they nerf it! Or give us option to BAN one class you don’t want to play against. At least for Legend players.