Ben Brode Explains the Reasoning for the Naga Sea Witch Rule Change
Ben Brode was on reddit today responding to an inquiry on Naga Sea Witch and her recent undocumented change.
- It was a mistake that the change wasn't in the patch notes for 9.0.
- If Naga Sea Witch is too powerful, she will probably be nerfed.
- The initial conversation began with the interaction between Bright-Eyed Scout and Second-Rate Bruiser.
- Due to not thinking that combo was correct, they reevaluated how cost-setting and cost-adjusting auras worked.
- Changing it made the rules overall easier to understand.
- They were initially concerned with the power level of the card, but it isn't a high win-rate right now.
Check out the full text below. There's a lot of great insight into the change that is better read in full.
Quote from Ben BrodeIf you're talking about Naga Sea Witch, it was definitely intentional, and definitely a mistake that it missed the patch notes.
The thing that got us talking about the issue was the interaction between Bright-Eyed Scout and Second-Rate Bruiser.
Generally when things "set" a value (think Aldor Peacekeeper), it becomes the new baseline. Any "auras" that affect that value apply after the effect that is applying the new baseline. Think about a minion next to a Dire Wolf Alpha. If you Aldor Peacekeeper that minion, his new Attack will be 2, not 1. It's because the Aura applies after the "set" power. This hasn't always worked correctly in the past, but if you Aldor a Small-Time Buccaneer who is being buffed by his power - his power is an Aura, and so the resulting minion would have 3 Attack.
We think the Bright-Eyed Scout + Second-Rate Bruiser interaction wasn't correct, and it caused us to re-evaluate Cost-Setting and how it interacted with Cost-Adjusting Auras.
Here's the discussion the engineers and designers had regarding Sea Witch:
The Naga Sea Witch interaction can work out in one of two ways:
If you draw a Second-Rate Bruiser while Naga Sea Witch is already in play, Second-Rate Bruiser’s cost will be reduced by 2 if your opponent has 3 or more minions.
If you have a Second-Rate Bruiser already in hand and play a Naga Sea Witch, that Bruiser will always cost 5, no matter how many minions your opponent has. If it gets a Thaurissan tick, it goes down to 4. If the Naga Sea Witch leaves play, Second-Rate Bruiser’s cost will be reduced by 2 if your opponent has 3 or more minions, while keeping the Thaurissan tick making it cost 1 less – leaving it with a cost of either 4 or 2.
This distinction happens because in the first case, Naga Sea Witch’s timestamp will be earlier than SRB’s, so SRB applies last. In the second case, SRB’s modifier has an earlier timestamp, so Naga Sea Witch applies last.
Why this feels wrong: We have a very clear precedent that card text modifiers apply last, after any external stat-setting effect occurs.
Tar Creeper, Tar Lurker, Tar Lord, Lightspawn, Cogmaster, Old Murk-Eye, Goblin Sapper - All of these cards give themselves a modifier that alters one of their own stats. If you play a stat-setting effect on one of them, their text still applies. The Tar minions will always get their attack bonus, even after being affected by Crystal Core, Aldor Peacekeeper, Sunkeeper Tarim, Dinosize or any other effect.
The proposal is this: Cards that modify their own cost should work in this exact same way. Second-Rate Bruiser’s ability is in the same category as Tar Creeper’s ability – it modifies one of its stats when a condition is met. This would standardize their behavior, making them on the whole feel more intuitive and consistent, as well as making our lives easier by making the rules more predictable.
If Naga Sea Witch is in play: Cards in hand cost 5, then their text is applied.
If Aviana is in play: Cards in hand cost 1, then their text is applied.
If Aviana, Naga Sea Witch, Pint-Sized Summoner, Summoning Portal and Mana Wraith are in play: Cards in play apply their effects in the order that they came into play, then each card in hand applies its own text last.
If I draw a Molten Giant with Bright-Eyed Scout: Molten Giant’s cost is 5, minus the damage I’ve taken. If I’m at 25 health, it costs 0.
If I draw a Molten Giant with Bright-Eyed Scout while Aviana is in play: Aviana applies, making Molten Giant cost 1. Bright-Eyed Scout’s enchantment then applies, making Molten Giant cost 5. Finally, Molten Giant’s text applies, making it cost 5 minus HealthLost.
We made the change because we think these rules are easier to understand because they're more consistent with other parts of the game, not because we wanted to buff Naga Sea Witch. We were worried about it's power level and have been watching the play/win reports in Wild. Right now it's not one of the best decks, but it could grow in winrate as players get more practice. If it does become a big problem, we'd probably nerf Naga Sea Witch, rather than reverting the rules change.
This is an excellent explanation that should settle the "intentional or not" issue completely. It also makes a lot of sense, so thank you for sharing and clarifying!
It looks like Dragon's Breath doesn't follow these new rules though. Here's a video documenting that with Naga Sea Witch in play, Dragon's Breath in hand does not reduce its cost by one every time a minion dies, even though Volcanic Drake does: https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/6yj2o9/new_bug_with_naga_sea_witch_and_dragons_breath/
Is this something that should happen, or a case that was missed in the last update?
It's a bug. Should be fixed in an upcoming patch (though the fix will miss 9.1.) (Source)
It's because of comments like this that I only use the Fan Creations forum now.
Since you didn't actually make an argument, no one can even tell what you have a problem with. Try being clear instead of just ranting pointlessly next time.
Sorry,a mistake? They are LAZY with their patch notes,look at SF2 patch notes:''we change the range from 1.2 to 1.3 to try and make it work'' while HS ''we fixed some minor stuff''
sometime I just wonder:
Does Blizzard want to kill Hearthstone within a few years?
the game became more broken one way or the other, and new players news input more money than last year just to catch up.
at this rate, I don't see how Hearthstone survive more than 2 more years.
Just like Pokemon, LOL.
Translation: "We ain't doing shit. Whine all you want but Wild will forever be an unbalanced shithole."
Someone's reading comprehension is NOT on point.
Check the name of the format. It is called "Wild" for a reason, not "Tame".
Wild is akin to what physical card games use for their format that does not use a banned list. Physical card games don't go around trying to balance check & nerf every powerful card in non-banned list formats. Why are you expecting Team 5 to do what physical card games are not doing?
what a mess, i need to remember that entire text wall with different interactions now!!!
and remember that win axe change too! dammit i cant manage those things
Play Naga Giant with Hunter, use secrets to stall till turn 5. Stitched Tracker and King's Elekk are amazing for draw.
Let's all play it to get it nerfed together!
Also please un nerf Molten Giant and put it back to 20 mana.
Duude we are complaining about jade druid since their release and Blizz is changing naga sea witch instead. I guess Blizzard missed the "customer service" department in their oval office and instead hired some apes eating bananas with their feet and throwing poop to each other.
They're both equally relevant problems in the meta they dominate, but unlike Jade Idol, blizz can't really just use the excuse of "Oh, it'll cycle out eventually" for a format that never cycles cards out.
Now the change itself is not a problem really, but how about next time you do such a "minor" change that you INCLUDE IT IN THE PATCH NOTES???? I mean for the love of good patch notes start to leave half the changes out recently.
he said it missed patch notes by mistake. No reason to whine about it.
Wow. Fired? Get a grip.
"They were initially concerned with the power level of the card, but it isn't a high win-rate right now."
Hi Timmy here! I play Priest on rank 20 and get crushed by this combo every game. What Lightbomb? Nah, I want to play my Standard Priest in Wild, to put in different cards in my Wild deck whould be too confusing for me. What play an aggro deck? Nah, I want to last every game at least 20mins. Blizz pls Nerf Naga asp or I leave WoW-cardgame forever!
so the game should be balanced around your decks which your intentionally handicapping by playing in the wrong format and not using the best cards at your disposal? I hope I'm missing your heavy sarcasm.