Hearthpwn

Meta has changed already, but not in the way that most people expected. Aggro Secret Paladin is no longer the best deck... because now Libram Secret Paladin took his place. We have experiments on the new archetype (Control Warrior) and that's probably the greatest success of this patch. There's a little bit more Rogue (she does better now because Paladin slowed down). Warlock is worse and even less popular on higher ranks... but pretty much the same on lower ranks. He's still around 10% of the meta and still sucks against anything that isn't Priest. Face Hunter is slightly better (again, because Paladin is less oppressive). Priest looks the same to me (as I predicted, Hysteria nerf didn't do much to him), except there's of course no more Kazakus Priest. Mage is the same as she was before (polarizing and annoying, yet not OP). Token Druid is another archetype that benefited from Paladin's nerf a little bit. Shaman is... still Shaman, you know the drill. Demon Hunter doesn't exists to me, so I don't know anything about his current situation.

I've been playing Shaman recently too and I must say, the substance is there. He has many good cards (Cagematch Custodian into Whack-A-Gnoll Hammer or Menacing Nimbus into Arid Stormer is super strong opening) and If he draws them right, he can be really frightening (I'm not gonna lie, bursting down Priest on turn 5 or OTK Demon Hunter on turn 6 is crazy satisfying). But ye, he still lacks reliable draw and consistency. 

I'm sure, that at some point he'll get them (because Team 5 will realize that you need SOME card draw in a card game...) and then he most likely will become OP. I can imagine him with all this tempo and burst cards being consistent and reliable, that's really scary. Still, I think he needs them nonetheless, maybe alongside some small nerfs to his early tempo.

I'd say it's too good, especially when you can generate additional copies (in one game, Mage played 4 of them against me). Each can "destroy" up to 3 minions, so this is crazy amount of value for such a low cost. As much as I hate overload, I think it would be good in this card.

I agree that random totem is too weak nowadays, but summoning one of your choice would be broken (anyone remember Odd Shaman?), taunt or healing on demand is just way too strong. Imagine playing aggressive deck and having early board full of murlocs (we all know how fast they can be). Your opponent used AoE to weaken them and to finish them in following turn... but no, because you summoned Healing Totem and that's it, game's over. I know it's possible even now, but it's not consistent (you have 25% chance). You could also spam Stoneclaw Totem literally each turn, slowing down every board-centric deck (because even 0/1 with taunt requires separate damage source to deal with).

Quote from OverholtNA >>

It's a good deck as long as the meta isn't 40% spell mage and face hunter. So let's see how things shake out over the next week or two.

Not really, unfortunately. He also struggles with Demon Hunter (OTK, Inquisitor), Rogue (Poison, Miracle, Secret), Druid (Token, Clown, even Celestial), Control Warrior (with Rattlegore), other Hunters (e.g with King Krush - Leoroxx combo). Hell even with pathetic Ping Mage (due to unblockable burst damage) or aggro Shaman (if he can draw his burst fast enough).

Do you see a pattern here? Anything that can deal a lot of damage in a short amount of time (like most decks in current Hearthstone...) or can generate tons of value, beats Warlock.

He definitely needs something, either better control tools, either completely new stuff (like fresh, viable archetype or maybe even rework). Self-punishment (like discard hand or destroy own deck) is not a good direction for sure, unless the payoff is good enough, but that's never the case.

Quote from emkarab >>

People who claim Warlock is great probably never played it seriously. They never show how they do on ladder with this class, nobody can say they achieved legend with it. They just make up "good" strategies they never tried.

Warlock has no burst potential, no serious mana cheating, they just have good cards, but they play 1-2 cards turn 6, when rogue or mage play 10. That's the problem. You can leave few warlock minions on board and you won't be dead next turn like you will against any good class - hunter, rogue, paladin, mage

Warlock is just "too fair" as a class (for the most part). Nowadays meta deck must be broken in some way to compete with others and if it's not, it sits on the bench with Shaman... Warlock no doubt has some good stuff (like Jaraxxus, Malicia or Envoy) but it's not enough. At this point he needs either something crazy to distract opponent from attacking his face, either better removals and taunts (to stop the damage) or reliable heal source (to recover from damage already taken).

Quote from PetiteMouche >>

Quote from TwistedCardmaster >>

Quote from PetiteMouche >>

Novice Zapper + Landslide will clear any aggro opener on turn 3, if Lightning Storm isn't enough.

Shaman has a lot of problems right now but dealing with aggro, especially minion based decks like aggro druid, is not one one them imo.

But can we expect 2 card combo answer, exactly on turn 3, from class with almost no card draw or generation? In theory, any class can deal with such board, but realistically it's way too early and it's almost impossible to answer that without extreme luck.

 This druid had a 5 cards combo opener on turn 1, why can't you expect a 2 cards combo answer on turn 3 ? If that is extreme luck, then what was the druid turn, extremely extreme lucky luck ?

Because the whole concept of game being decided by early RNG is broken. I get that most games are decided by luck, in one way or another (because draw order or card generation) and sometimes you just win / lose, because you played something, or something was played against you and nothing could be done about it. I'm fine with that.

I'd say, it's perfectly fair when such thing happens in the late game (like turn 8+), because you have more time to prepare, to react, to play around etc. But on turn 3 it's just lucky coin toss. My opponent highrolled me or I highrolled my opponent and the game is over before it even started. That's not right, that's the definition of "non-game". I have nothing against power plays (even early ones), but game-winning plays should be much slower, despite being random or very lucky.

Quote from PetiteMouche >>

Novice Zapper + Landslide will clear any aggro opener on turn 3, if Lightning Storm isn't enough.

Shaman has a lot of problems right now but dealing with aggro, especially minion based decks like aggro druid, is not one one them imo.

But can we expect 2 card combo answer, exactly on turn 3, from class with almost no card draw or generation? In theory, any class can deal with such board, but realistically it's way too early and it's almost impossible to answer that without extreme luck.

Quote from Teuuun >>

Quote from Bengalaas >>

I played my Token Druid against a Warlock who had triple School Spirits (one from scorpion) into Malicia on curve and he crushed me.

Just kidding, he still didn't stand a chance despite having the nut draw. The current iteration of Control Warlock only beats control decks.

 Wrong, it also beats combo and midrange. But then again, midrange is almost completely dead.

It really only loses to aggro.

 Which combo? Certainly not OTK Demon Hunter or Miracle (Alex) Rogue.

Any aggro / tempo deck should do. Yet, if you are looking for something non-aggro, Control Warrior is looking really good in early days of "new" meta and variant with Rattlegore should destroy Warlock with ease (unless he learns to run Ironbeak Owl, which it's not very likely).

Quote from Neko_Tamo>>

Some of those are broken some not so much,

Because... let me guess, your feelings?

if they ever get too out of hand they will be nerfed hopefully.

Like Warlock and Hysteria? Got it.

Note Tickatus wasn't nerfed despite being OP

Because you say so?

and hated,

So nerfs should be based on feelings?

Neither were some other OP warlock tools.

Name them please.

I look at individual cards and I see Warlock ones are considerably bonkers, probably most OP class pound for pound.

Yes, because your feelings >> data. Got it.

if you buffed it to overcome those then there would be nothing to stop it, it would be T0.

Psss... those "nothing" are called nerfs, but don't tell anyone!

That is my read of the situation and seemingly Blizzard agrees.

Exactly, same with Shaman. They keep him in trash tier, because he might get OP at some point. True story! Everyone knows, that It's the best way to balance any multiplayer game, just make some classes dead weak and the job is done.

Quote from Neko_Tamo>>

the point of that is not that Warlock, esp. control Warlock, deserves buffs but other classes deserve nerfs, and for Blizz to reverse the gear on powercreeping cards. Just compare classic cards and the ones from last 1-2 years, it's crazy.

Honestly? I don't care how they do it, I just want Warlock to be viable, with decent win rates against most meta decks, that's all.

I agree with PetiteMouche (I think) that Warlock is ridiculously strong,

And how can you tell that? Not by the numbers (data) of course, because they say otherwise (since almost everything beats Control Warlock now and he wasn't any better for years), so maybe by your "personal feelings"? I mean, why not, but is it a proper way to evaluate card / class power level?

You know what? Let's nerf Deathrattle Demon Hunter now! Why? Because it's obviously ridiculously strong deck. I mean sure, no data can actaully prove this (since it's T4 deck with terrible matchups against almost everything), but I have this impression (feeling?) that it's too strong.

Eventually the meta will shift and Warlock will have its day.

Sure, I've been hearing that for 3 years.

If we did what you want and just buffed it buffed it buffed it until it broke to the top it would be absolutely insane because then it would be strong despite the meta and that would make it broken on a level we haven't seen maybe ever.

You overinterpret my words because I've never said anything like that. I want Control Warlock to be viable meta deck (now, not within next 5 years), nothing more, nothing less. How? Either by buffing him (or giving him new cards), either by nerfing everything else, I don't really care.

Consider all the ridiculous tools available to Warlock, soul shard cards, corrupt cards (including hated Tickatus), Jaraxxus and a ton of others. Warlock has so many potentially bonkers cards is hard to list them all.

Again, what makes them ridiculous? Evaluation made in a vacuum, based on personal feelings (because certainly not numbers, aka objective data)? If this balancing method is fine, why not apply it to the entire game? Incanter's Flow, Illidari Inquisitor, Skull of Gul'dan, Kayn Sunfury, Secret Passage, Jandice Barov, Shadowjeweler Hanar, Scabbs Cutterbutter, Swinetusk Shank and so on. In a vacuum they are all BEYOND BROKEN! Why don't they nerf these cards immediately?

Quote from Neko_Tamo >>

If it can't win with those then it is not warlock that is weak but everything else that is nuts. Powercreep really fucked this game hard since I left.

You can't evaluate card's strength in the vacuum, it always has to be related to other cards in the game. So if the card is not good enough, compared to other cards, then it's not good at all.

It's the same thing with poverty and wealth. What makes you rich is not how much money you have in your pocket, but how many goods you can buy with the money you have (and that depends on how much money other people have, that's how inflation works).

So having a card like this: Start of Game: Set your hero's health to 60, you might think: wow, this is crazy! But if all other classes have a similar card, which sets hero's health to 250 instead, then it's not that good anymore, but rather underwhelming.

That's why Warlock's power on paper doesn't matter. It only matters how he copes with other classes in any given meta.

Quote from OverholtNA >>

Definitely a great card. I just question whether it's really needed in those matchups. You're not using it to pressure; you're using it to heal, remove, or force trades generally. There are other cards than can serve a similar function. And with the Crabrider nerf, I think you'll generally have an easier time removing early on and have less trouble stabilizing late game.

I was using it mostly for tempo and to take away opponent from my face for turn or two. Sometimes to heal myself, corrupt Tickatus or remove threats from the board. Sadly, I don't see any replacement for this card available for Warlock. And I wouldn't say I that removing early stuff is now easier for me. One more mana on Hysteria means that I often can't trigger Yogg and use it on the same turn, which usually translates into additional 6-8 (or more) face damage. Also playing against Face Hunter and Token Druid feels more difficult now, only Rush Warrior seems relatively the same to me. Those are my first impressions of post-nerf Warlock, but I'm not expecting they will get any better.

I know you are just trolling me at this point, and I know you agree with most things I said, and I know you never considered Control warlock a bad deck, because you played it (with success), and nobody plays bad decks on purpose, and nobody loses their shit when a bad deck gets the tiniest nerf.

Nah, I'm just amused at how much you deny reality, making arguments out of thin air and basing them on "because I say so".

Control Warlock wasn't T1 deck since Cube Lock... 3 years ago. So much for your argument about "good deck in the wrong meta".

I'm done with this nonsense.