Hearthpwn

Quote from Shadowrisen >>

 

@Pizzacats

In general, you seem to be a good faith poster, but the whole "if you point out that people whine, you're whining and thus nothing you say is worthwhile" thing doesn't work on any level.  Furthermore, you may not like someone being arrogant, but that doesn't mean what the person said was incorrect.

 

 

 I never discredited the content of the post.  I did point out that he was "whining about whining", but I did not in any way say that what he said was altogether untrue or incorrect.  I do believe that many of the concerns he has are, in fact, problems, but since I do not have a solution to those problems, I did not pretend to know how to address them. My response was a challenge to the nature of "how" the thread was presented rather than the content of the thread itself.  I agree in many ways that the hs community is unsatisfactory, but I did not make my comments to disagree with the OP.  I believe making people aware of their own problems is the start of a solution to the community as a whole. That can be said about exposing implicit bias in regards to racism, it could be said about various facets of religion, etc.  I by no means claim to have all the answers or be perfect, and am well aware of my personal failures and shortcomings.  I need help from others to help keep me accountable and address those things.  I responded the way I did to give the OP awareness of misinterpretation and potential holes in his thinking and to challenge them philosophically, not to disagree with what they are saying.

Quote from Titaniumxxxxx >>

Quote from Pizzacats >>

Quote from Titaniumxxxxx >>

Quote from Pizzacats >>

A post which is complaining about people complaining and attacking people personally (calling them pussies) who attack people personally. Sounds like you are part of the problem.

First of all you've missed the point entirely. 

Second, I'm not complaining about people complaining - I'm complaining about the state of the community. I'm perfectly fine with people complaining about stuff - its good for everyone to voice their opinion and I encourage that. My point is that people constantly complain about stupid things - not to make the game better but to suit their own agendas.

Never complained about personal insults either - I said that people take such great offence to any criticism on their statements that they immediately resort to personal insults. It's just toxic and wasn't how the core community used to be. So yeah, I'll stand by my statement of 'self entitled pussies' because I cant think of another term to describe them.

And sure I complain about things - a lot of things but the difference between me and the self entitled crew - is that I will concede on a point I've made if there is a good enough argument against it. I don't complain about cards unless I have statistical evidence to back up that the card is OP and rarely (if ever) resort to personal insults unless someone personally attacks me first. 

You response ignored all of the points I made and responded with a non sensical statement to attempt to portray me as a hippocrit - I feel like only one of us is part of the problem here and it isn't me!  

 Fine, you want me to prove I didn’t “miss the point”?

1. You are indeed complaining about people complaining. The reason you said the “state of hs community” is bad is because people are whiny and self centered and won’t be happy unless they get their way. To this, you further added that it is “so annoying” and that when you got called out for whining, you said it’s okay for people to whine. What then, decides whether it is right for people to whine? It seems you placed yourself as an intellectual superior who has selfishly stated that you have the right to whine but people who “don’t get your points” don’t.

2. Saying a community is toxic because it attacks people while at the same time attacking people just proves that you are toxic by your own definition. You immediately resorted to attacking me, for example, even though I simply made an observation and recorded that observation as a comment.

3. Saying you are better than the “self entitled crew” because you know when to concede points is highly arrogant because other people often do the same if they are proven wrong, and it also puts you in a position where you are justifying the way that you complain which is completely subjective, so deciding that your complaining is righteous but theirs isn’t is a very “holier than thou” toxic mindset.

4. I didn’t ignore anything. I chose not to go into a detailed response because I didn’t want to. You complaining that I didn’t is just more proof that you are toxic since I have no obligation to go beyond what I said but you want to victimize yourself saying that it’s not you who is causing problems, but everyone around you. I changed my mind because I feel you should know how ridiculous you sound.

5. Throwing out the idea that I am part of the problem after I simply made an observation on your post is the true nonsense. What I said has absolutely no comparison to what you described. You complained about people who Whine about cards which are not proven to be good and attack people personally when they are proven wrong. I did neither of those things, so saying I’m part of the problem is just a defense mechanism and makes absolutely no sense but further proves that you are part of THIS problem which YOU stated of people who attack people personally who criticize them. Open your eyes to hypocrisy. Just because you don’t like what I said doesn’t mean it is untrue.

Listen I'm not going to get into a detailed argument with you because you're dead set on ridiculing anything that I say, so I'll keep this as brief as possible. My overall argument has never been that people shouldn't be complaining, that's absurd and I've stated multiple times that I m perfectly fine with people complaining - its just a bit excessive right now and even when people do complain no one ever seems to agree anyways. I felt in the past things were a lot more constructive and it was genuinely fun to engage with the community for the most part.

By your own logic I suppose you're complaining about me complaining about others complaining. What a time to be alive!

At no point in any of my posts have I personally attacked you - if you could care to highlight exactly where I attacked you or which parts of my response offended you, that would be appreciated because I'm genuinely lost as to how you see my response as a personal attack on yourself?

You've made multiple incorrect assumptions throughout your response and then responded to those assumptions, which is honestly ridiculous. As I stated above I've never personally attacked you, I've never suggested that anyone doesn't have a right to complain but I do, I've never suggested that my complaints should be held in a higher regard than anyone else's, I've never suggested that I'm the victim and everybody else it the problem but me - yet you've went out of your way to state that all of those are the case. Which doesn't in any way prove that you didn't "miss the point", it proves you're highly manipulative, if you ask me.

One point I agree with though, is that - my response was arrogant when I suggested that I concede points when others don't. People do concede on things but its frustrating that its seems to happen a lot less now than in the past - its an element of the times, doesn't mean I have to like it. Nonetheless I apologise for the way I came across there as I didn't articulate myself very well.

Honestly - I really don't want to get into a pointless debate with you. I'm never gonna agree with you because you've made far too many assumptions, so it is merely a waste of both of our time. 

Starting a comment saying you don't want to argue when all I did was respond to your response seems arrogant once again.  The whole point of the thread was to have a discussion no? If you think you are above having an argument, the state of the community will never change. What have I said that showed I was dead set on ridiculing anything you said? I find that much of what you said is true about the hs community.  I wouldn't have said it the same way, but that doesn't matter, to each their own.  I even acknowledged that the state of the hs community was indeed a "problem" in my original post, but I don't believe there is anything to be done about it, so I swept it aside to point out hypocrisy in your post so you are more self-aware. Didn't seem to work since you also ignored most of what I said and wrote it off as an "incorrect assumption". Here is my response to your most recent response:

1. Given that you are okay with people complaining but not excessive complaining, what amount of complaining is "excessive"? That is a very subjective answer meant to put you on a moral high ground.  If you have an objective answer for how much complaining is excessive, then I'd ask, why do you get to decide how much is considered "excessive"? I asked this question in the first detailed response, but you never answered, but really feel that you should.  You compared it to the state of the hs community in the past. Do you have proof of it being a more constructive community? I remember the community always having both a constructive and toxic side, and believe it still does.

2. Trying to shift what I said to be "complaining about you complaining about you complaining is silly.  Complain is defined as expressing dissatisfaction or annoyance at the state of affairs or event.  You are the one dissatisfied, thus making the post.  My reason for commenting has nothing to do with me being unsatisfied, I am totally content. I truly do not care that you are complaining. I like commenting on things to contribute to a conversation, nothing to do with me being annoyed.

3. I didn't say that you meant to personally attack me or are victimizing yourself on purpose, but the things you said made it come off that way, which is really all I'm trying to do, is make you aware of the language you are using. I have taught English, so I believe the words you choose to use are important. Your statement that what I said was nonsensical and that I was "part of the problem" came off as a personal attack because what I said was in no way related to the problems you are concerned with in your post. As for not victimizing yourself, how so? If the "state of hearthstone community" bothers you enough to make a post about it, doesn't that mean you believe yourself to be above the rest of the community and you are a victim of people's excessive complaints? I am truly curious what else it could mean to victimize yourself but to say that a community (which you are in) is toxic (or a generalized negative statement), but exclude yourself from the toxicity. 

4. There is a difference between "incorrect assumptions" and unintended consequences.  Though you may not have meant that people don't have a right to complain, or that your complaints are on a higher level, the way in which you presented this discussion seemed to conclude that you do, regardless of it being true.  It might be a misunderstanding, but those are things that should be discussed if you want any positive changes.  If what you say can be interpreted as hypocrisy, then you should clarify to show that it isn't, or at least be prepared to give a defense. If you believe that me trying to get a defense out of you is manipulative, that has some merit, but it seems that you said I was being manipulative by using falsehoods, but I wasn't claiming they were true about you personally, but was making those conclusions based on what you said.  If you think my logic is flawed, then you should address that rather than say it is "incorrect" and "ridiculous".

5. I appreciate your agreement that you came off as arrogant and are willing to apologize about it.  If you truly were an arrogant person by nature, I doubt you would have humbled yourself to do so.  I apologize if anything I said was in fact manipulative, as that was not my intention.  I enjoy having some philosophical discussions/debates, so anything I said was not meant to be an attack on you personally or manipulate others against you, but it was to challenge you to think about the implications of what you said. If you do not want to discuss this further, I won't take offense, but I still find that you are someone who deserves respect, or I wouldn't have spent as much time as I have responding to you.

Quote from Titaniumxxxxx >>

Quote from Pizzacats >>

A post which is complaining about people complaining and attacking people personally (calling them pussies) who attack people personally. Sounds like you are part of the problem.

First of all you've missed the point entirely. 

Second, I'm not complaining about people complaining - I'm complaining about the state of the community. I'm perfectly fine with people complaining about stuff - its good for everyone to voice their opinion and I encourage that. My point is that people constantly complain about stupid things - not to make the game better but to suit their own agendas.

Never complained about personal insults either - I said that people take such great offence to any criticism on their statements that they immediately resort to personal insults. It's just toxic and wasn't how the core community used to be. So yeah, I'll stand by my statement of 'self entitled pussies' because I cant think of another term to describe them.

And sure I complain about things - a lot of things but the difference between me and the self entitled crew - is that I will concede on a point I've made if there is a good enough argument against it. I don't complain about cards unless I have statistical evidence to back up that the card is OP and rarely (if ever) resort to personal insults unless someone personally attacks me first. 

You response ignored all of the points I made and responded with a non sensical statement to attempt to portray me as a hippocrit - I feel like only one of us is part of the problem here and it isn't me!  

 Fine, you want me to prove I didn’t “miss the point”?

1. You are indeed complaining about people complaining. The reason you said the “state of hs community” is bad is because people are whiny and self centered and won’t be happy unless they get their way. To this, you further added that it is “so annoying” and that when you got called out for whining, you said it’s okay for people to whine. What then, decides whether it is right for people to whine? It seems you placed yourself as an intellectual superior who has selfishly stated that you have the right to whine but people who “don’t get your points” don’t.

2. Saying a community is toxic because it attacks people while at the same time attacking people just proves that you are toxic by your own definition. You immediately resorted to attacking me, for example, even though I simply made an observation and recorded that observation as a comment.

3. Saying you are better than the “self entitled crew” because you know when to concede points is highly arrogant because other people often do the same if they are proven wrong, and it also puts you in a position where you are justifying the way that you complain which is completely subjective, so deciding that your complaining is righteous but theirs isn’t is a very “holier than thou” toxic mindset.

4. I didn’t ignore anything. I chose not to go into a detailed response because I didn’t want to. You complaining that I didn’t is just more proof that you are toxic since I have no obligation to go beyond what I said but you want to victimize yourself saying that it’s not you who is causing problems, but everyone around you. I changed my mind because I feel you should know how ridiculous you sound.

5. Throwing out the idea that I am part of the problem after I simply made an observation on your post is the true nonsense. What I said has absolutely no comparison to what you described. You complained about people who Whine about cards which are not proven to be good and attack people personally when they are proven wrong. I did neither of those things, so saying I’m part of the problem is just a defense mechanism and makes absolutely no sense but further proves that you are part of THIS problem which YOU stated of people who attack people personally who criticize them. Open your eyes to hypocrisy. Just because you don’t like what I said doesn’t mean it is untrue.

Well they unnerfed leper gnome, so I guess it’s never happening.

A post which is complaining about people complaining and attacking people personally (calling them pussies) who attack people personally. Sounds like you are part of the problem.

Quote from fabjx >>

I have just lost to a guy hitting my face 100 times with pen flinger!!!!!

 100? that's some serious healing/armor

First day of school, Aldor attendant, Knight of anointment, hand of A’dal, libram of wisdom, sword of the fallen, northwatch commander, cariel roame, and Aldor Truthseeker all have higher mulligan, drawn, AND played winrate than pen flinger.

I doubt rogue will be nearly as oppressive without jandice, watch posts, and penflingers, but I certainly see the potential for Paladin and mage to remain on top. The nerfs, though helpful, don’t seem to be enough to make a big impact on the meta, just make it slightly less polarized and maybe some matches that normally would have been a loss you can squeeze in a win here and there, but it seems like it will be pretty minor. Rogue on the other hand, got its best deck pretty trashed, so it will have to figure out something else if it wants to remain relevant.

There was a few times where it was only tier 3, can go through meta history to see. But yes, rogue is generally playable and finds a way to win, even if it relies on mostly neutral cards. There are many times where most of rogue’s cards were bad and it ended up just playing tempo neutral cards as its best deck. Not very fun to play when that happened either.

What’s wrong with a Rock Paper Scissors meta? Isn’t that what defines a healthy meta?

Holding on a extra Ysera since 2016, finally it's gonna pay off 

Once upon a time, I worked as a debt collector.  We had bets among the collectors about how many busy signals in a row someone could get (I know, I know, it's a boring job).  I won hundreds of dollars on a bet that we'd eventually see a 15 streak, and not only did it happen, it happened several times.

If you don't get the point, stop posting your interpretations of statistics in this forum.

If you do get the point, you'll know that one can experience short-term streaks that defy all logic based on expected values over long-term iterative processes.  In English, that means that if you toss a coin a million times, the results will be fairly close to 500k heads and 500k tails, but that doesn't change the fact that you'll repeatedly see "impossible" streaks of heads and tails in a row.

When you post 14 games, or 40 games for that matter, it's not that it doesn't mean much.  It means absolutely nothing.

This topic has reared its head countless times in this forum . . . and the fact that no one has actually done what it takes to make a statistical argument speaks volumes.  It would not require millions of games, but it WOULD require approximately 2-3 weeks during a relatively stable meta during which many games would have to be played with two decks.  Rejecting a null hypothesis that the matchups are similarly distributed while playing two different decks wouldn't be that difficult if in fact the matchmaking is rigged.  But until someone actually does it, rehashing this with different deck archtypes is contributing nothing.

Quote from B3ckemon >>

I would really like to see Solem and Roffle get some love from blizz in this kind of event. Best youtube videos and deck makers for wild format, imo.

 Do not forget Dane and WowHobbs.

Quote from DeafKnight >>

Quote from HoraceWalpol>>

Quote from DeafKnight>>

There could never exist a Mecha'thun deck that uses Deathwing to complete the combo, because in order for Mecha'thun's deathrattle to trigger, you can have no minions on the board. If you use Deathwing to kill Mecha'thun, the deathrattle won't trigger. So I assure you, you haven't seen "plenty of DW" versions. 

I didn't realise that you were watching all of my games to know what I have or haven't seen. >_>
That in itself sounds more like a poor attempt at smarm rather than an actual point. 

However, that argument does not apply to old Ysera, because the card itself - not a supporting card in a deck - HAS fundamentally changed. Before, you played Ysera with the expectation of getting at least one of five different Dream cards, a card type that is uncollectable and specifically tied to her. The Dream cards ARE her effect. Now, those cards - Ysera's effect - have changed. Therefore, the card has fundamentally changed, and it warrants a dust refound. This is completely in line with Blizzard's dust refound policy and not at all inconsistent.

 This is obviously and demonstrably incorrect, based on your previous helpful example and the following detail. 
A card that was not directly altered is being refunded.
Look at it this way. if I put the old version of the card and the new version side by side, just point out the visible difference. Job done. That should be easy enough.

Look, I really want to believe you're arguing in good faith, but you're not doing yourself any favours when you're not addressing valid points such as the Togwaggle example and the fact that the Dream cards are uncollectible and intrinsically tied to Ysera. The change is not visible on the card itself, but it is very clearly functional.

A very relevant example is the nerf to Solarian Prime, an uncollectible card that can only be generated through Astromancer Solarian. Players were given a dust refund for Astromancer Solarian because its effect had changed: it no longer shuffled a 7 mama prime into your deck, but a 9 mama one. This change was not visible on the card itself, but it was very clearly still a nerf that warranted a refund. Similarly, the cards generated by Ysera have drastically changed, and Blizzard is, as always, giving a refund.

Also, I'm not saying that I've seen every game you've ever played. I'm just saying that Mecha'thun cannot be activated by playing Deathwing, which is why I highly doubt you've seen it played on ladder. Nerfing Deathwing would not impact the Mecha'thun Warlock combo in any way, so it's very strange that you keep using it as an example. If you're wrong about one thing, maybe you could be wrong about other things too? No judgement, just saying. We're all wrong once in awhile.

Registered just to comment this deck. It is amazing. I've been playing the ultra weighty version with Nzoth. But this one - feels much more better. Vendors are crazy helpful at all times. Very skill dependent, but I feel like it is a real meta breaker. With right pilot can beat even secret mages. Hunters are tough though:D

This will be holy day for Rogue players, they have most of nerfed cards.

In my lunchtime I did an unbelievable thing: I killed scummy Secret Mage with my homebrew Quest-Cho-4giants Mage deck.

Soooo rewarding!

I wish I could upvote your deck again! I've been a fan of your decks for awhile and decided to try your deck again with the Armor Vendor change. I play the exact same deck as you have in this guide and here are the results:

Versus:
Murloc Shaman - W
Reno Mage  - W
Secret Mage  - L
Reno Hunter - L
Secret Hunter - W
Galakrond Warrior - W
Reno Priest - W
Burgle Rogue - W
Spell Druid - W
Odd Warrior - W
Silas OTK Warrior - L
Libram Paladin - W
Burgle Rogue - L
Totem Shaman - L
Reno Shaman - W
Amara Deathrattle Priest - W
Reno Hunter - W
Secret Hunter - W
Big Rez Priest - W
Odd Rogue - L
Totem Shaman - L
Totem Shaman - W
Reno Rogue - W
Pirate Warrior - W
Dead Man's Hand Warrior - L
Big Rez Priest - W
Totem Shaman - W
Mill Rogue - L
Secret Mage - L

So, that's 19-9 W/L. Very nice! I still have trouble with Secret Mage, but I could've won the first Secret Mage game but I accidently used the wrong card on my turn (on mobile - fumble fingers, going to fast, etc.). I have to say, Armor Vendor is da MVP of this deck. Instantly better than Glacial Shards for me. I look forward to future updates to your guide if you have changes. Thanks again for the deck!

Sparkjoy Cheat and Shenanigans looks heckin' fun. I gotta say.

We looking at a new control style secret rogue? I would like to put Questing Adventurer back on the shelf for a while...