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Exactly! Blizzard wants you to play spell damage mage, that's why Tickatus is devised. It's called politics of card design.
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
Fine, you want me to prove I didn’t “miss the point”?
1. You are indeed complaining about people complaining. The reason you said the “state of hs community” is bad is because people are whiny and self centered and won’t be happy unless they get their way. To this, you further added that it is “so annoying” and that when you got called out for whining, you said it’s okay for people to whine. What then, decides whether it is right for people to whine? It seems you placed yourself as an intellectual superior who has selfishly stated that you have the right to whine but people who “don’t get your points” don’t.
2. Saying a community is toxic because it attacks people while at the same time attacking people just proves that you are toxic by your own definition. You immediately resorted to attacking me, for example, even though I simply made an observation and recorded that observation as a comment.
3. Saying you are better than the “self entitled crew” because you know when to concede points is highly arrogant because other people often do the same if they are proven wrong, and it also puts you in a position where you are justifying the way that you complain which is completely subjective, so deciding that your complaining is righteous but theirs isn’t is a very “holier than thou” toxic mindset.
4. I didn’t ignore anything. I chose not to go into a detailed response because I didn’t want to. You complaining that I didn’t is just more proof that you are toxic since I have no obligation to go beyond what I said but you want to victimize yourself saying that it’s not you who is causing problems, but everyone around you. I changed my mind because I feel you should know how ridiculous you sound.
5. Throwing out the idea that I am part of the problem after I simply made an observation on your post is the true nonsense. What I said has absolutely no comparison to what you described. You complained about people who Whine about cards which are not proven to be good and attack people personally when they are proven wrong. I did neither of those things, so saying I’m part of the problem is just a defense mechanism and makes absolutely no sense but further proves that you are part of THIS problem which YOU stated of people who attack people personally who criticize them. Open your eyes to hypocrisy. Just because you don’t like what I said doesn’t mean it is untrue.
@pizzacat. Maybe the fanboy implies with 'the state of the HS community' that the community should be purified from 'self entitled pussies', disturbing elements rocking his chitchat with other fanboys.
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
Listen I'm not going to get into a detailed argument with you because you're dead set on ridiculing anything that I say, so I'll keep this as brief as possible. My overall argument has never been that people shouldn't be complaining, that's absurd and I've stated multiple times that I m perfectly fine with people complaining - its just a bit excessive right now and even when people do complain no one ever seems to agree anyways. I felt in the past things were a lot more constructive and it was genuinely fun to engage with the community for the most part.
By your own logic I suppose you're complaining about me complaining about others complaining. What a time to be alive!
At no point in any of my posts have I personally attacked you - if you could care to highlight exactly where I attacked you or which parts of my response offended you, that would be appreciated because I'm genuinely lost as to how you see my response as a personal attack on yourself?
You've made multiple incorrect assumptions throughout your response and then responded to those assumptions, which is honestly ridiculous. As I stated above I've never personally attacked you, I've never suggested that anyone doesn't have a right to complain but I do, I've never suggested that my complaints should be held in a higher regard than anyone else's, I've never suggested that I'm the victim and everybody else it the problem but me - yet you've went out of your way to state that all of those are the case. Which doesn't in any way prove that you didn't "miss the point", it proves you're highly manipulative, if you ask me.
One point I agree with though, is that - my response was arrogant when I suggested that I concede points when others don't. People do concede on things but its frustrating that its seems to happen a lot less now than in the past - its an element of the times, doesn't mean I have to like it. Nonetheless I apologise for the way I came across there as I didn't articulate myself very well.
Honestly - I really don't want to get into a pointless debate with you. I'm never gonna agree with you because you've made far too many assumptions, so it is merely a waste of both of our time.
Sorry for length, there's a lot to respond to here.
@ BRAVOTEAM
Wonderful post. It's so rare to hear anyone actually give the devs any credit at all for the many positive changes they have made for the game. The recent decision to refund dust for the legendary relating to the watch post nerfs made no sense to me, not because it wasn't good for us, but because they had to know they'd receive ZERO credit from the vocal plurality.
@Tyk3
Didn't seem like the insults were veiled at all. Seems like that was the point, and at least if you accept the other premises of the post, the insults were justified.
@P4dge
In regards to the "more likely to see 'git good scrub' than reasoned argument re: Tickatus" thing, I tried for two months to treat folks posting Tickatus hate as if they were good faith actors who wanted to have a discussion. I'd write posts arguing against the idea that the Tick was strangling all other control decks. I'd even discuss what one could do to slightly alter play to get a much better win rate against the Tick. In return, abuse beyond the norm was heaped on every post, zero responses to the substance of my posts were forthcoming, and frequently, the posters made it very obvious by their comments that they hadn't even read what I wrote. So, after multiple tries to be reasoned and engage in the argument, I'm not going down that rabbit hole again.
@Painkiller
I had over 200 games with Priest and Warrior last meta and both had a >50% win rate against the Tick. Control was only dead because people believed the hype instead of trying to beat the Tick themselves. This meta may be different, but if it is, its not because of the Tick. Its because of Jaraxxus. In fact, I'm currently running a Control Lock that doesn't even use Tickatus because he is simply a "win harder" card against other class control decks after you have Jaraxxus out. Unfortunately, Tickatus may be necessary in the mirror match and probably keeps its slot due to that consideration plus the occasional combo deck. Control vs. Control, it's just not necessary.
@Masizkynet
First of all, there have been countless posts about the card being overpowered, so no, not everyone is going the "bad design" route. Furthermore, the comments about the death of control are not correct. Well, actually I suppose they are correct, but not because control CAN'T win against the Tick, but because the complaints have become self-fulfilling with a large amount of players not trying to find ways to beat the Tick with control, but just choosing to play other things. It has been wonderful for me because the control v control matchups are at an all-time low when I play warrior or priest.
@Pizzacats
In general, you seem to be a good faith poster, but the whole "if you point out that people whine, you're whining and thus nothing you say is worthwhile" thing doesn't work on any level. Furthermore, you may not like someone being arrogant, but that doesn't mean what the person said was incorrect.
Sorry for the length of post (for once). Fell behind on this one a bit.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Starting a comment saying you don't want to argue when all I did was respond to your response seems arrogant once again. The whole point of the thread was to have a discussion no? If you think you are above having an argument, the state of the community will never change. What have I said that showed I was dead set on ridiculing anything you said? I find that much of what you said is true about the hs community. I wouldn't have said it the same way, but that doesn't matter, to each their own. I even acknowledged that the state of the hs community was indeed a "problem" in my original post, but I don't believe there is anything to be done about it, so I swept it aside to point out hypocrisy in your post so you are more self-aware. Didn't seem to work since you also ignored most of what I said and wrote it off as an "incorrect assumption". Here is my response to your most recent response:
1. Given that you are okay with people complaining but not excessive complaining, what amount of complaining is "excessive"? That is a very subjective answer meant to put you on a moral high ground. If you have an objective answer for how much complaining is excessive, then I'd ask, why do you get to decide how much is considered "excessive"? I asked this question in the first detailed response, but you never answered, but really feel that you should. You compared it to the state of the hs community in the past. Do you have proof of it being a more constructive community? I remember the community always having both a constructive and toxic side, and believe it still does.
2. Trying to shift what I said to be "complaining about you complaining about you complaining is silly. Complain is defined as expressing dissatisfaction or annoyance at the state of affairs or event. You are the one dissatisfied, thus making the post. My reason for commenting has nothing to do with me being unsatisfied, I am totally content. I truly do not care that you are complaining. I like commenting on things to contribute to a conversation, nothing to do with me being annoyed.
3. I didn't say that you meant to personally attack me or are victimizing yourself on purpose, but the things you said made it come off that way, which is really all I'm trying to do, is make you aware of the language you are using. I have taught English, so I believe the words you choose to use are important. Your statement that what I said was nonsensical and that I was "part of the problem" came off as a personal attack because what I said was in no way related to the problems you are concerned with in your post. As for not victimizing yourself, how so? If the "state of hearthstone community" bothers you enough to make a post about it, doesn't that mean you believe yourself to be above the rest of the community and you are a victim of people's excessive complaints? I am truly curious what else it could mean to victimize yourself but to say that a community (which you are in) is toxic (or a generalized negative statement), but exclude yourself from the toxicity.
4. There is a difference between "incorrect assumptions" and unintended consequences. Though you may not have meant that people don't have a right to complain, or that your complaints are on a higher level, the way in which you presented this discussion seemed to conclude that you do, regardless of it being true. It might be a misunderstanding, but those are things that should be discussed if you want any positive changes. If what you say can be interpreted as hypocrisy, then you should clarify to show that it isn't, or at least be prepared to give a defense. If you believe that me trying to get a defense out of you is manipulative, that has some merit, but it seems that you said I was being manipulative by using falsehoods, but I wasn't claiming they were true about you personally, but was making those conclusions based on what you said. If you think my logic is flawed, then you should address that rather than say it is "incorrect" and "ridiculous".
5. I appreciate your agreement that you came off as arrogant and are willing to apologize about it. If you truly were an arrogant person by nature, I doubt you would have humbled yourself to do so. I apologize if anything I said was in fact manipulative, as that was not my intention. I enjoy having some philosophical discussions/debates, so anything I said was not meant to be an attack on you personally or manipulate others against you, but it was to challenge you to think about the implications of what you said. If you do not want to discuss this further, I won't take offense, but I still find that you are someone who deserves respect, or I wouldn't have spent as much time as I have responding to you.
I never discredited the content of the post. I did point out that he was "whining about whining", but I did not in any way say that what he said was altogether untrue or incorrect. I do believe that many of the concerns he has are, in fact, problems, but since I do not have a solution to those problems, I did not pretend to know how to address them. My response was a challenge to the nature of "how" the thread was presented rather than the content of the thread itself. I agree in many ways that the hs community is unsatisfactory, but I did not make my comments to disagree with the OP. I believe making people aware of their own problems is the start of a solution to the community as a whole. That can be said about exposing implicit bias in regards to racism, it could be said about various facets of religion, etc. I by no means claim to have all the answers or be perfect, and am well aware of my personal failures and shortcomings. I need help from others to help keep me accountable and address those things. I responded the way I did to give the OP awareness of misinterpretation and potential holes in his thinking and to challenge them philosophically, not to disagree with what they are saying.
I love discourse! Looks like I'm late so I'll ignore the way this thread transformed into a Tickatus thread and try to address the OP.
OP really shot themselves in the foot by pointing insults in the direction of everybody they're talking about which makes the whole post look like it was just meant to vent or shake some salt out at what they're seeing on the forums.
To an extent I agree that the community has become extremely quick to anger and there's evidence of that going back pretty dang far. Shadowrisen made a great point that I think about sometimes myself - Shudderwock being indirectly nerfed because of community outcry and "feelbads" being the first time they'd ever done such a thing, leading to a grown sense of entitlement in the community at large, expecting perhaps that every single "flaw" in the game that makes it less fun for them is bad game design and demanding changes. I've been to enough Tick threads to know that yeah, some people are just passionate and heated about Tick - people hate Mill mechanics in every card game because they feel bad to play against. You can't convince somebody that they aren't actually upset, and in a setting where the two intentions are fun and victory, you can't really convince them they were having fun when they weren't.
I think the upside is a more fluid and rapidly changing meta, frequent changes in the forms of nerfs for strong cards and (recently) buffs to weaker cards. And frankly because there's a casual audience I do think that "fun" is a reason to make changes for certain people/cards. Video games are meant to be fun. Games are meant to be fun. Maybe there is an issue of un-fun when enough people are talking about something. At the same time our perceptions are warped in terms of how many people are talking about something, because only a small fraction of players actually go on forums to discuss this game at all! Remember when you talk about whiners, you're talking about a small percentage of people within a small percentage of the entire playerbase.
I don't think OP is completely off base at thinking people are entitled - some people are. I am against putting people in boxes and insulting others, so I can't really support the spirit of the post.
please don't bully my son
Honestly I'd rather we all made more of an effort to get along with one another. It might not seem this way but I do appreciate that you have taken the time to respond to me and I do understand where you are coming from with a lot of the points you've made. I don't agree with all of them but I do understand. I am always happy to be challenged on statements I make - none of us are perfect, we all live and learn and I'm no different.
I feel like my OP does raise some valid points on issues within the community but it could have been presented better - frustration did get the better of me and I should have realised that using the words that I chose to use was always going to provoke a negative response from some people.
I will take the genuine criticisms on board and aim to do better in the future. I think its fair to say that we've both perhaps made statements which could be considered provocative. I do apologise if I have offended you though, my intention was never to target an individual but a group who I feel are disruptive in the community.
Nonetheless I will leave it at that. I've read all of your points and although I'm not going to respond to all of them individually as I feel we've both made our stances clear and both clarified our motives and intentions. I respect you for taking the time you have to respond - most people wouldn't elaborate in the detail that you have , so for that I am grateful. I hope you have a great day ahead!
I think its just the way internet is. You can get 98% right and internet will still slam you for that 2% shortfall. People are always finding ways to criticize.
Plus, Its human nature that when people are satisfied, they stay silent but if they are dissatisfied, they need to make threads or write posts to spew out their anger. Thats why you see so many cringe posts relative to positive ones. People need to relax.
Very good post. I'm guilty of seeing the noise and associating it with the player base at large, sometimes it can seem like an overwhelming majority. You're right though, I do just wish there was more community spirit, at least on a site like this and the community was active in problem solving etc. Whilst this site doesn't reflect the whole player base, it's still too negative for my liking and having been active in other forums or sites where its less snarky and more helpful, I don't think it's simply "it's the Internet, that's how it is" because that isn't how it is absolutely everywhere (although it's increasingly getting there).
How original. A thread complaining about people who complain about a game.
Folks will complain before they compliment. Especially online forums such as this. Have played HS since Nax and have always enjoyed it for what it is. The player base has increased and so has the whinging. Let them cry and mess with their deck with a Ticketus glee and enjoy it for what it is.....
The problem isn’t negative posts, it’s the tone in which they are delivered. This forum seems to have an issue with point scoring from both sides, the ‘whiners’ and the ‘shills’.
The OP seems to have realised his mistakes throughout the thread but the original post is the perfect example of this. The OP is a ‘shill’ and this thread was created to point score against the ‘whiners’. (I’m not actually accusing the OP of being a shill).
Another example is the rigged matchmaking discussion. Now personally I would not be surprised at all if there was rigging going on for various reasons, however given the small vocal minority of “tHe GaMe Is RiGgEd” fanatics that dominate the discussion I could never align myself with that argument. They come across as unhinged.
sounds like op is quite naive or has some fluffy idea of what a community should be like. as far as game communities go and considering the popularity i'd say hearthstone is actually quite a bit nicer compared to a lot of other games. i've had a lot more positive interactions in and out of the game than in various mmos, shooters, and rts communities i was part of in the past.
by no means is it perfect, but claiming it is especially bad or toxic is completely off the mark and perhaps suggests you haven't touched other pvp games in a long time.
I agree, I've encountered some awful people in the online world of gaming and one of the reasons I choose to engage with the HS community is because at its core it has always been a nice community. (I'm quite new to these forums but I've been active on the Blizzard forums since 07 when I was playing wow). It just feels lately that we as a community are heading in the wrong direction and feels more divided than ever but this community is definitely by no means as toxic as a lot of others.
Despite all of that though, this thread has been a positive experience for me overall - I'm definitely going to be more careful with my choice of words moving forward in an effort not to provoke a negative response but rather a more constructive one. I've also managed to find common ground with someone who was critical of me and I see that as a win. Not only because I've learned from the experience but because it shows that there are still a lot of great people in this community and even when people disagree they can still be civil with each other and compromise.
I don't think you've properly read the thread, I think the op has done a decent job of clarifying their intention and holding their hands up to some of the tone etc of the first post.
I wouldn't say its completely off the mark at all, I've probably only seen the fifa community be as negative and not just negative, aggressive and abusive as this one. The toxicity around that game has actually led to me just dropping it for the first time since probably 1995? It just sucks the enjoyment away, in my opinion. If you don't feel the same, cool, good for you.
Now I may be factually incorrect, someone may be able to produce something which shows it isn't but as it stands, I can only go from my personal experience and maybe I've been luckier with other games. I wouldn't say it's a uniquely hearthstone problem, far from it but I've certainly seen far better communities than this one.
Thank you for that.
The HS community definitely has its issues but I've experienced worse - I was a regular FPS player (COD, BF, CSgo etc..) and very much engaged in those communities and COD YT scene, and in my experiences those communities are far worse than anything I've experienced in HS. Its part of the reason I quit FPS games altogether and abandoned my YT channel of 50k. The level of harassment you can receive for having an opinion or just for beating someone in a competitive game is unprecedented.
I don't think HS would ever reach that level, just because I feel the overall target audience are probably more mature. But its definitely heading in the wrong direction and I think as a community we could all do more to be nicer to one another and be more constructive and compromise more.
everyone should just be a lil good boy and pay money and nod their little yesman heads when something they dont like is being done.
abusrd arguement, hard for me to understand weak beta male behaviour... i really just dont get it... saying what you like and what you dont like is a good thing
^This is what I mean. In general I would probably agree with this guy on certain positions as I tend to be critical of the game, but he comes across a weird, so I don’t want to.