As of late, I've been wondering whether or not the current state of balance in Hearthstone is at its best or at its worse as Reno Jackson has polarized the metagame towards coin flipping vs Face Aggro, the resurgence of Freeze Mage and Midrange Druid and no other control deck capable of competing with Renolock's card advantage and late game win conditions of Lord Jaraxus/Elise Starseeker. At this point, I think R&D needs to concede that the game needs nerfs, not cards, to address imbalance.
The game is suffering from several "design errors" at this point,
1) Piloted Shredder (Suggested nerf, -1 Health)
If Defender of Argus, Shattered Sun Cleric and Novice Engineer were nerfed because of being ubiquitous, then Piloted Shredder should be nerfed as well for the same reason alone, and moreso for being either equal to or strictly better than every class 4 drop and a detterent to the viability of 4 health minions in the game. Suggest nerf is to subtract 1 health from the card in order to follow the design precedent of Piloted Sky Golem's statline i.e. 6/4 -> 4/2 and allow 1 and 2 drops to trade with it.
2) Dr. Boom (Suggested nerf, +1 Mana)
See above argument regarding ubiquitous cards, the card offers too much value for its mana cost and has warped the format into "Do you have BGH or don't you?" At 8 mana it's still better than Ragnaros, which only speaks to the absurdity of the card.
A 6 Mana 6/6 that searches for 5 cards and casts them for free, a curve and play alogorithym simple enough for a child or a bot to take the deck to Legend and a card that forces opponent's to concede if they don't have an immediate answer for it ... I respect the fact that the card has made Paladin Secrets playable, but there's no reason for the card to be above the curve of the other 6 drop's statline because it only denies the ability of the other player to cleanly trade in his minions for Mysterious Challenger even if he could get thru' Noble Sacrifice and Avenge.
4) Mad Scientist (Suggested nerf Deathrattle: Discover a Secret)
Secrets were virtually unplayble before Mad Scientist, and as Mysterious Challenger has showed us "shoe horning" mechanics into the game in order to make them playable has had horrific consequences. Freeze Mage is one of the most degenerate decks in the format thanks to its total lack of interactivity, while Face Hunter has been the most dominant aggro deck in the format because of its speed and board control. Take away Freeze Mage's free survivability and Face Hunter's free board control and Eagle Horn Bow charges and you begin to return the game to sanity while the "nerfed" version of Mad Scientist creates even greater card diversity by offering card advantage in the form of a variable Secret that even Paladin would want to play.
5) Savage Roar (Suggested nerf +1 Mana)
Force of Nature and Savage Roar have been the design restraint of the Druid class since Beta and the reason Druid can't have nice things, couple that with no game in recent memory ending without Savage Roar for Druid and burst combos between 14 and 22 damage without minions on the board and the threat of the card forcing the opponent to clear, and you have probably one of the most degenerate decks in the game next to Freeze Mage. Increasing the mana cost pushes the fundamental turn back and eliminates the double Savage Roar combo so R&D now has free(er) design space for the class and other decks don't have to clear the board or lose the game starting from Turn 7.
6) Voidcaller (Suggested nerf Deathrattle: Discover a Demon)
Free Mal'Ganis, free Doomguard and even free Lord Jaraxus tip games towards "Do you have Ironbeak Owl or not?" and I'm firmly of the opinion that a card shouldn't have more controlled RNG and mana reduction than Unstable Portal, Bane of Doom. Merlock Knight or Ram Wrangler (or that those cards should even exist in a game that claims to be an Esport). The nerf puts it on par with Tomb Spider and Gorillabot while doing a better job to diversify the number of Demon's that actually see play, while opening up the design space for future high cost Demon's to be printed without having to worry about them being played for free or disregarding their drawbacks.
7) Lord Jaraxus (Suggested nerf +1 Mana)
The card was insane in control matches before Emperor Thaurrisan, now that it can benefit from cost reduction and play an Infernal on the same turn it's essentially a lock in the control match if you can play it on an open board.
8) Emperor Thaurrisan (Suggested nerf Battle Cry)
Do you remember the last time you didn't have an immediate answer for Emperorer and still won the game without going face? Neither do I.
9) Anyfin Can Happen (Suggested nerf, remove it from the game)
A single card that both OTKs and disregards board and card advantage, right ..., and while it's not ruining the game at the moment the fact of the matter is that it's only a matter of time until it does as soon as control takes the mantle.
Does most of the community agree or disagree with this? I'm pretty sure this is the way for the game to go if it wants to return the game towards a more balanced power curve and interactivity, but I'm sure there's more than one way to do that or people who disagree with where the game's design imbalances really are.
1. Game is at most balanced spott since release, all classes have balanced winratios according to stats.
2. OP cards dont matter as long as the deck sorounding them is balanced. According to winrates no deck is anywhere near old patron.
3. Freeze mage degenerate? Its the deck with the most skillcap next to oil to play and play against. Has also balanced winratio. Its important for this game. And just the fact you dont like some decks doesnt mean theyr degenerated or anything. Just thats impossble for every deck to be liked by everybody.
I think you are right but I would address Dr Boom in a different way, lower the cost of all other 7 drops to 6. Failing that, lower Ancient of War to 6. Everyone has Dr Boom so everyone will be tearful if they nerf him and the forums would fill with pity threads if that happened.
I feel you're bringing your own discussion to someone elses thread. Dr. Boom and possibly Mysterious Challenger are the only big problem cards right now and I agree with OP. Why change all 7 drops when you can just fix the one making the problem? Ancient of War specifically has little to nothing to do with this thread and it feels like you just really want to make that card work. The rest of the cards I am honestly still fine with.
Anyway, moving back on topic, the meta game is mostly fine. Yes, there are obviously powerful cards that go beyond what we would expect, like Mad Scientist and Mysterious Challenger, but those onyl apply to a very specific set of cards, namely secrets. I feel it's a bit like saying that you shouldn't be able to trigger synergies because they are too powerful. Dr. Boom is just too good, period. No pre-requisite, just pure power worthy of even a 9 mana card, except for 2 mana less.
Lord Jaraxxus is a strong card, yes but it's slow. Extremely slow. You pay 9 mana for 3 damage and the effect of Alexstrasza up front, which really isn't all that powerful in many circumstances. If you're playing against a slower opponent then it's obviously great for the same reason that most win conditions are. Some decks are still able to burst you from 15, and you still have to wait 3 turns just to attack with the first Infernal. It's really slow. If you are able to stall long enough to to actually get it working, why shouldn't you be able to use it to win?
Piloted Shredder has been discussed for ages and there's not much to add. I would like it to be a 3/3 just because at 4 attack it takes out so many other cards in the same slot.
Voidcaller wouldn't work like that, because Hearthstone won't allow you to interupt your opponent's turn.
I would agree with the changes to MC, Boom and Emperor. They at least sound reasonable.
Most of these suggestions are silly. Not that Blizz will implement these anyways, but here's my 2 copper.
1) Fine and reasonable. Shredder needs its stats reduced, though maybe 3/3 would be better than 4/2. Maybe.
2) Somewhat mitigates the issues with Dr. Balanced, but IMHO the Boom Bots themselves are the real problem here. Step in the right direction but there are probably more intelligent ways to nerf Dr 7.
3) Doesn't solve the real problem with the card, which is being able to get 5 free secrets into play without any possible counter. Irrelevant change.
4) Agree that scientist is a little too strong. Not sure if this is the proper way to fix it though...honestly it might see even more play and be even more ubiquitous after this change.
5) Probably fine. However, I'm biased since I utterly loathe the druid combo.
6) Unnecessary. Voidcaller is fine. Yes, sometimes you get really silly plays out of it, but it can be played around and it requires some skill (and luck) to use it properly.
7) Jaraxxus is OP? Fucking lol.
8) Unnecessary IMO. By the time Emperor comes out there's plenty of ways to counter it, and rarely has it been an auto-loss for me personally. I can understand the frustration if you're not able to clear it after 3 turns though.
9) Fucking lol. Holy salt, batman, is someone getting rekt by murloc pallies?
TL;DR: Not great ideas overall. Thinly-disguised QQ post.
According to winrates no deck is anywhere near old patron.
According to win-rates, PW struggled to win 47% of its matches on ladder - at BlizzCon, Mike Donais revealed that the internal data put PW at 46%, rising to 49% when piloted by legendary players. I suspect anyone with a game tracker was puzzled by the community hysteria regarding the deck. FWIW, its win-rate was only slightly better than Priest, when that class was considered unplayable on ladder (45% during the peak of the Miracle Rogue era.)
The fact that the classes are balanced in winrates has only meaning for the developers. For the community is not winrate balance but archetype disbalance that is the problem.
I've never seen a thread addressing "archetype disbalance," and suspect that you really aren't speaking on behalf of the community, as there are plenty of threads regarding OP decks, with unreasonable win-rates. There is a lot of evidence that win-rates are reasonably balanced, and that the meta-game has never been more diverse. I'm not certain what "archetype disbalance" is - but with three major archetypes, and nine classes, I suppose the developers have a lot of archetype un-disbalancing ahead of them. May we wish them, "Good luck!"
I will just say on the warlock cards. Voidcaller is stuck a lot of times in your hand with no demon or the other way when for example you got malganis but no voidcaller, and malganis is just stuck in the hand, card becomes useless until turn 9. Voidcaller is rng based, sometimes its not gonna get the demon you want and fucks up the game, some times its not gonna give you a demon at all. If you make it discover a demon, believe me its gonna be op, frees 2 card slots in demon handlock and ensures you get the demon all the time, plus out of 3 there is definetely gonna be a big demon. Ever played Bane Of Doom?
Jaraxxus is not op, the only games you want to use it is against control warrior or priest, where against control warrior you need to play around grom all the time and taunt up and sometimes against priest to play around auchenai.
I agree on Anyfin, it is a horribly, horribly, horribly designed card. Without a doubt the worst I have ever seen in HS. That card is basically the singular death sentence of any control-heavy meta, ever.
As for MC, change it into deathrattle - done. Then it requires thinking and can be countered.
Shredder stats nerf is fine. I think Kripp has me convinced that 3/3 is better than 4/2, but either way would help.
Dr. Boom doesn't need a nerf really; people have learned to play around him. But I would love to see a very slight nerf. Reduce his health to 6 and reduce maximum Boom Bot damage to 3.
Mysterious Challenger I would reduce all the way down to 4/5.
For Mad Scientist, Deathrattles will never trigger Discover because they can happen on your opponent's turn. Too bad, as Discover a Secret is an interesting strategy direction to go. In the meantime, I think I like the option where Mad Scientist puts a secret into your hand instead of into the battlefield.
I agree it would be nice to have a small nerf to FoN + SR so that other midrange Druids can exist. But bumping the mana cost of Savage Roar doesn't sit right with me, not sure why.
Deathrattle and discover will not work because that can involve the player doing something on the opponent's turn, which is NOT something done in Hearthstone. There has never been a real way to interact interact on your opponents turn on in Hearthstone besides arguably secrets.
Some of your nerfs don't even make any sense. Piloted Shredder's main problem was it traded to well for most midrange cards such as Azure Drake and Goblin Blastmage, but would "win" (I have lack of a better word) making it a 2 for 1 in most scenarios. Mysterious Challenger as a 5/5 won't even hurt it, in some scenarios it can even help with Competitive Spirit making it a 6/6 which is out of BGH ( This can be easily wrong assumption but making a 5/5 is no better)
Also there is NOTHING wrong with Savage Roar or Force of Nature on their own, its the combo that's the problem. I'd prefer keeping Savage Roar at the same cost but change the text to "Give your characters without charge +2 Attack this turn." Simple and makes sure the cards can't interact.
That said that only card on the list I expect Blizzard to actual nerf is Mysterious Challenger.
I guess what people sometimes don't understand is how delicate the meta is. Balance changes are implemented in a very limited fashion and only as a last resort. If the proposals in this thread were to all be implemented, the meta, and the game would likely spin off its axis and implode into oblivion. I suspect the only change we will see regarding the Secret Paladin is possibly more tools to deal with secrets in the next expansion.
Oh, and to add, the day that the opponent gets to dick around during my turn is the day I quit this game. I already have to wait for them to dick around on their own turn.
As of late, I've been wondering whether or not the current state of balance in Hearthstone is at its best or at its worse as Reno Jackson has polarized the metagame towards coin flipping vs Face Aggro, the resurgence of Freeze Mage and Midrange Druid and no other control deck capable of competing with Renolock's card advantage and late game win conditions of Lord Jaraxus/Elise Starseeker. At this point, I think R&D needs to concede that the game needs nerfs, not cards, to address imbalance.
The game is suffering from several "design errors" at this point,
1) Piloted Shredder (Suggested nerf, -1 Health)
If Defender of Argus, Shattered Sun Cleric and Novice Engineer were nerfed because of being ubiquitous, then Piloted Shredder should be nerfed as well for the same reason alone, and moreso for being either equal to or strictly better than every class 4 drop and a detterent to the viability of 4 health minions in the game. Suggest nerf is to subtract 1 health from the card in order to follow the design precedent of Piloted Sky Golem's statline i.e. 6/4 -> 4/2 and allow 1 and 2 drops to trade with it.
Piloted Shredder is fine. It's a neutral card and it's actually gotten worse since it was originally added because of some of the potential bad outcomes such as Darnassus Aspirant.
2) Dr. Boom (Suggested nerf, +1 Mana)
See above argument regarding ubiquitous cards, the card offers too much value for its mana cost and has warped the format into "Do you have BGH or don't you?" At 8 mana it's still better than Ragnaros, which only speaks to the absurdity of the card.
Another card that is fine as is. Why? Because everyone can access it because its a neutral card.
A 6 Mana 6/6 that searches for 5 cards and casts them for free, a curve and play alogorithym simple enough for a child or a bot to take the deck to Legend and a card that forces opponent's to concede if they don't have an immediate answer for it ... I respect the fact that the card has made Paladin Secrets playable, but there's no reason for the card to be above the curve of the other 6 drop's statline because it only denies the ability of the other player to cleanly trade in his minions for Mysterious Challenger even if he could get thru' Noble Sacrifice and Avenge.
Agree it deserves a change but your proposal won't fix the problem. Changing its Battlecry to a Joust would be more ideal. Then it would be less of an "I Win" button.
4) Mad Scientist (Suggested nerf Deathrattle: Discover a Secret)
Secrets were virtually unplayble before Mad Scientist, and as Mysterious Challenger has showed us "shoe horning" mechanics into the game in order to make them playable has had horrific consequences. Freeze Mage is one of the most degenerate decks in the format thanks to its total lack of interactivity, while Face Hunter has been the most dominant aggro deck in the format because of its speed and board control. Take away Freeze Mage's free survivability and Face Hunter's free board control and Eagle Horn Bow charges and you begin to return the game to sanity while the "nerfed" version of Mad Scientist creates even greater card diversity by offering card advantage in the form of a variable Secret that even Paladin would want to play.
This card is fine. Though Blizzard needs to add more defenses against Secrets like Kezan Mystic.
5) Savage Roar (Suggested nerf +1 Mana)
Force of Nature and Savage Roar have been the design restraint of the Druid class since Beta and the reason Druid can't have nice things, couple that with no game in recent memory ending without Savage Roar for Druid and burst combos between 14 and 22 damage without minions on the board and the threat of the card forcing the opponent to clear, and you have probably one of the most degenerate decks in the game next to Freeze Mage. Increasing the mana cost pushes the fundamental turn back and eliminates the double Savage Roar combo so R&D now has free(er) design space for the class and other decks don't have to clear the board or lose the game starting from Turn 7.
This card is fine now but I agree they have to keep an eye on it as the card universe expands and Druids have more and more ways to reliably have lots of minions in play in the mid-game regardless what you do.
6) Voidcaller (Suggested nerf Deathrattle: Discover a Demon)
Free Mal'Ganis, free Doomguard and even free Lord Jaraxus tip games towards "Do you have Ironbeak Owl or not?" and I'm firmly of the opinion that a card shouldn't have more controlled RNG and mana reduction than Unstable Portal, Bane of Doom. Merlock Knight or Ram Wrangler (or that those cards should even exist in a game that claims to be an Esport). The nerf puts it on par with Tomb Spider and Gorillabot while doing a better job to diversify the number of Demon's that actually see play, while opening up the design space for future high cost Demon's to be printed without having to worry about them being played for free or disregarding their drawbacks.
This card is fine.
7) Lord Jaraxus (Suggested nerf +1 Mana)
The card was insane in control matches before Emperor Thaurrisan, now that it can benefit from cost reduction and play an Infernal on the same turn it's essentially a lock in the control match if you can play it on an open board.
This card is fine.
8) Emperor Thaurrisan (Suggested nerf Battle Cry)
Do you remember the last time you didn't have an immediate answer for Emperorer and still won the game without going face? Neither do I.
I'm not sure what your nerf is but in any event this card is high value in certain situations but I don't think its a problem.
9) Anyfin Can Happen (Suggested nerf, remove it from the game)
A single card that both OTKs and disregards board and card advantage, right ..., and while it's not ruining the game at the moment the fact of the matter is that it's only a matter of time until it does as soon as control takes the mantle.
That seems harsh and doubtful Blizzard would admit that much of a screw up even if it were warranted. I don't see the card as that problematic at the moment. Murloc Paladin isn't that dominant. What's the problem? I know it sucks when they play it on round 10 (or 9 with a coin) but it can be played around.
The fact that you find a deck archetype annoying is not a norm in itself, and does not say much. Seventeen million people, across thirty million accounts, are playing the game. Presumably, there are millions of people who find any particular deck "annoying." A few thousand enjoy anonymously posting their annoyance online. Not exactly a "community," but that is what people call it. If you wish to summarize these threads, no one will stop you, and there is a ready-made mutual grieving society that will extol your wisdom.
However, you are correct - "archetypes in the meta are not evenly distributed." As I wrote earlier, making all archetypes equally viable among all classes is not ever going to happen. Nor is that a fault of lazy design. Rather, the metagame shifts seasonally, as intended. Again - the metagame appears to be more balanced than ever before - about twenty different decks are viable. TempoStorm guesses that eight of nine classes have at least one Tier Two deck. Some are aggro, others are midrange, some are combo, and others are control. In addition, more cards are seeing play than ever before - the introduction of Reno has allowed the ladder to play dozens of cards which previously weren't seeing play.
And none of this matters, because some people think one or another deck (or archetype?) is "annoying."
The silent majory (17 million?) suffers under the disbalance of the metagame euphemistically called "winrate balance" while a anonymous thousand voice that frustration in threads. Finally someone who wants to talk balance.
I agree with you that Blizzard settles for "winrate balance, but archetype balance is the only justifiable balance. More difficult to reliaze I know and less manipulative for other purposes than just the game.
Other disbalances are e.g Damage out of hand ( spelldamage, chargers) and value play. Damage out of hand creates easy wins for less skilled players. It is very annoying when you want to out value your opponent.
You aren't making any sense at all - of course win-rates matter. Your entire position is that all archetypes should have viable win-rates. If I misunderstand you, and you suspect that archetype balance can be achieved without viable archetypes, please explain how this might be done.
Fortunately, it appears that all archetypes are currently viable. This season, there are viable combo decks, aggro decks, control decks, and midrange decks. Depending upon which source you prefer, the usual suspects in the Hearthstone community currently guess that there are 14-19 decks that are Tier 1 or Tier 2. Each archetype has at least a pair of viable decks. If "archetype balance" means something other than this, you haven't quite explained it yet.
Also, your last comment appears to undermine what you have said about archetype balance - to be viable, aggro decks require spell damage and chargers, regardless of how "annoying" one or another player seems to think. FWIW, I imagine that aggro players don't find them the least bit annoying. Why is the pleasure of the aggro player less important than the annoyance of the control player? We need archetypes to be balanced, after all - as you've said, it is "the only justifiable balance." Presumably, when all the archetypes are balanced, a quarter of our games will be against annoying combo decks, another quarter against annoying aggro decks, a third quarter against annoying control decks - do you see where I'm going with this? The fact that an individual finds a particular deck "annoying" has far more to do with the player, than the game. The best suggestion, probably, is to chill out.
To be fair only Mysterious Challenger is really too strong... I would change it so that the effect only triggers at the beginning of the opponent's next turn.
The rest of the cards should stay as they are... imo.
The health of a metagame can be measured by variety. Currently there are more viable decks than there has ever been.
Paladin - Midrange , Secret , Anyfin
Mage - Mech, tempo, fatigue, freeze
Druid - Midrange, EggDruid, combo
Warrior - Patron, Control
Priest - Control, Dragon
Warlock - Zoo, Demon midrange, Reno ( demon and F/S version ), combo, handlock, combo reno, Malylock
Rogue - Raptor, oil, mill, malygod
Hunter - Midrange, hybrid, face *not adding dragon hunter just yet even tho it's on the rise*
Shaman - Midrange, face
That's 29 viable decks off the top of my head, probably missing a few. I'd say the metagame and game is very healthy right now. Admittedly though, it could be better with some MC nerfs.
The health of a metagame can be measured by variety. Currently there are more viable decks than there has ever been.
Paladin - Midrange , Secret , Anyfin
Mage - Mech, tempo, fatigue, freeze
Druid - Midrange, EggDruid, combo
Warrior - Patron, Control
Priest - Control, Dragon
Warlock - Zoo, Demon midrange, Reno ( demon and F/S version ), combo, handlock, combo reno, Malylock
Rogue - Raptor, oil, mill, malygod
Hunter - Midrange, hybrid, face *not adding dragon hunter just yet even tho it's on the rise*
Shaman - Midrange, face
That's 29 viable decks off the top of my head, probably missing a few. I'd say the metagame and game is very healthy right now. Admittedly though, it could be better with some MC nerfs.
And the druid combo is a little OP too, should cost more.
As of late, I've been wondering whether or not the current state of balance in Hearthstone is at its best or at its worse as Reno Jackson has polarized the metagame towards coin flipping vs Face Aggro, the resurgence of Freeze Mage and Midrange Druid and no other control deck capable of competing with Renolock's card advantage and late game win conditions of Lord Jaraxus/Elise Starseeker. At this point, I think R&D needs to concede that the game needs nerfs, not cards, to address imbalance.
The game is suffering from several "design errors" at this point,
1) Piloted Shredder (Suggested nerf, -1 Health)
If Defender of Argus, Shattered Sun Cleric and Novice Engineer were nerfed because of being ubiquitous, then Piloted Shredder should be nerfed as well for the same reason alone, and moreso for being either equal to or strictly better than every class 4 drop and a detterent to the viability of 4 health minions in the game. Suggest nerf is to subtract 1 health from the card in order to follow the design precedent of Piloted Sky Golem's statline i.e. 6/4 -> 4/2 and allow 1 and 2 drops to trade with it.
2) Dr. Boom (Suggested nerf, +1 Mana)
See above argument regarding ubiquitous cards, the card offers too much value for its mana cost and has warped the format into "Do you have BGH or don't you?" At 8 mana it's still better than Ragnaros, which only speaks to the absurdity of the card.
A 6 Mana 6/6 that searches for 5 cards and casts them for free, a curve and play alogorithym simple enough for a child or a bot to take the deck to Legend and a card that forces opponent's to concede if they don't have an immediate answer for it ... I respect the fact that the card has made Paladin Secrets playable, but there's no reason for the card to be above the curve of the other 6 drop's statline because it only denies the ability of the other player to cleanly trade in his minions for Mysterious Challenger even if he could get thru' Noble Sacrifice and Avenge.
4) Mad Scientist (Suggested nerf Deathrattle: Discover a Secret)
Secrets were virtually unplayble before Mad Scientist, and as Mysterious Challenger has showed us "shoe horning" mechanics into the game in order to make them playable has had horrific consequences. Freeze Mage is one of the most degenerate decks in the format thanks to its total lack of interactivity, while Face Hunter has been the most dominant aggro deck in the format because of its speed and board control. Take away Freeze Mage's free survivability and Face Hunter's free board control and Eagle Horn Bow charges and you begin to return the game to sanity while the "nerfed" version of Mad Scientist creates even greater card diversity by offering card advantage in the form of a variable Secret that even Paladin would want to play.
5) Savage Roar (Suggested nerf +1 Mana)
Force of Nature and Savage Roar have been the design restraint of the Druid class since Beta and the reason Druid can't have nice things, couple that with no game in recent memory ending without Savage Roar for Druid and burst combos between 14 and 22 damage without minions on the board and the threat of the card forcing the opponent to clear, and you have probably one of the most degenerate decks in the game next to Freeze Mage. Increasing the mana cost pushes the fundamental turn back and eliminates the double Savage Roar combo so R&D now has free(er) design space for the class and other decks don't have to clear the board or lose the game starting from Turn 7.
6) Voidcaller (Suggested nerf Deathrattle: Discover a Demon)
Free Mal'Ganis, free Doomguard and even free Lord Jaraxus tip games towards "Do you have Ironbeak Owl or not?" and I'm firmly of the opinion that a card shouldn't have more controlled RNG and mana reduction than Unstable Portal, Bane of Doom. Merlock Knight or Ram Wrangler (or that those cards should even exist in a game that claims to be an Esport). The nerf puts it on par with Tomb Spider and Gorillabot while doing a better job to diversify the number of Demon's that actually see play, while opening up the design space for future high cost Demon's to be printed without having to worry about them being played for free or disregarding their drawbacks.
7) Lord Jaraxus (Suggested nerf +1 Mana)
The card was insane in control matches before Emperor Thaurrisan, now that it can benefit from cost reduction and play an Infernal on the same turn it's essentially a lock in the control match if you can play it on an open board.
8) Emperor Thaurrisan (Suggested nerf Battle Cry)
Do you remember the last time you didn't have an immediate answer for Emperorer and still won the game without going face? Neither do I.
9) Anyfin Can Happen (Suggested nerf, remove it from the game)
A single card that both OTKs and disregards board and card advantage, right ..., and while it's not ruining the game at the moment the fact of the matter is that it's only a matter of time until it does as soon as control takes the mantle.
Does most of the community agree or disagree with this? I'm pretty sure this is the way for the game to go if it wants to return the game towards a more balanced power curve and interactivity, but I'm sure there's more than one way to do that or people who disagree with where the game's design imbalances really are.
Shredder - Putting it to 1 health is too big of a nerf. Maybe making it a 3/3 or even 3/2 would be a better idea just so it doesn't trade as well.
Dr.Boom - Making it cost 8 mana would hardly make a difference. People would still the ever living hell out of it. The problem and frustration of this card lies in boombots. Sadly, i cant see what they can do to boombots without totally changing the card. Making it a 7/5 would make it a bit more manageable. Just bad design in general and sets the standard too high for future legendaries and 7 drops in general.
MC - Easily fixed by making it a deatrattle instead of battlecry. As cancerous as secret paladin I hate when developers totally invalidate deck archetypes with nerfs.
Mad Scientist - Freeze Mage and Face hunter are the reasons for nerfing this card? Freezemage is a high skill deck ( believe it or not ) and it's interaction problems go far beyond mad scientist. Face Hunter has fallen off and the problem with that deck def isn't mad scientist. Nerfing it also REALLY hurts decks like midrange hunter and tempo mage, both of which are fine atm.
Savage Roar - I agree with you that it is a design constraint, but the solution of adding 1 mana to the combo, i cant see making that big of a difference. If we really want to this gone we would have to add 2 mana to the cost, making the combo impossible without innervate/coin/ET But if we do that, what does druid have left?
Voidcaller - Card is fine.
LJ - Card is fine and adding 1 mana wouldnt make a diff in most cases.
ET- The card actually makes the game less predictable which is a good and bad thing. Maybe if it reduced both players hands by 1. IDk just throwing out ideas. Think the card is fine.
Anyfin - It's balanced, hate to break it to you. Frustrating, sure, but def doesn't need a nerf. The argument against it is often so exaggerated it's hard to have a real discussion about it. "they just stall the game till turn 10 and instantly win!!!" Uh no, lol.
That's IF you manage you to kill off every murlock you have before 10, which if you ever played anyfin decks, you know is virtually impossible, nor do you want to mulligan hard for your murlocks in most matchups.
On top of that it's 10 mana so to play the first one you would have to have the advantage on board in order to have the luxury to play such a heavy card. It's balanced. Freeze mage is far more effective and far more uninteractive and gets half the QQ this deck gets. My guess would that a vast majority of players have a tough time adapting to decks like this, just as they did with freeze mage in the past.
Don't like the change, because it is hardy relevant and only makes him immune to BGH next turn. I would suggest mana at 7. Competes with Boom and kills the undefeatable dr6-dr7-dr8 play.
4) Mad Scientist (Suggested nerf Deathrattle: Discover a Secret)
Suggested nerf - 1/2 body
5) Savage Roar (Suggested nerf +1 Mana)
Agree, double combo is problematic mostly and nowadays there are tons on sticky minions making Savage Roar a little too strong for it's cost.
Others don't need a nerf, they are good yes, but don't break game.
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As of late, I've been wondering whether or not the current state of balance in Hearthstone is at its best or at its worse as Reno Jackson has polarized the metagame towards coin flipping vs Face Aggro, the resurgence of Freeze Mage and Midrange Druid and no other control deck capable of competing with Renolock's card advantage and late game win conditions of Lord Jaraxus/Elise Starseeker. At this point, I think R&D needs to concede that the game needs nerfs, not cards, to address imbalance.
The game is suffering from several "design errors" at this point,
1) Piloted Shredder (Suggested nerf, -1 Health)
If Defender of Argus, Shattered Sun Cleric and Novice Engineer were nerfed because of being ubiquitous, then Piloted Shredder should be nerfed as well for the same reason alone, and moreso for being either equal to or strictly better than every class 4 drop and a detterent to the viability of 4 health minions in the game. Suggest nerf is to subtract 1 health from the card in order to follow the design precedent of Piloted Sky Golem's statline i.e. 6/4 -> 4/2 and allow 1 and 2 drops to trade with it.
2) Dr. Boom (Suggested nerf, +1 Mana)
See above argument regarding ubiquitous cards, the card offers too much value for its mana cost and has warped the format into "Do you have BGH or don't you?" At 8 mana it's still better than Ragnaros, which only speaks to the absurdity of the card.
3) Mysterious Challenger (Suggested nerf -1/1 Attack/Health)
A 6 Mana 6/6 that searches for 5 cards and casts them for free, a curve and play alogorithym simple enough for a child or a bot to take the deck to Legend and a card that forces opponent's to concede if they don't have an immediate answer for it ... I respect the fact that the card has made Paladin Secrets playable, but there's no reason for the card to be above the curve of the other 6 drop's statline because it only denies the ability of the other player to cleanly trade in his minions for Mysterious Challenger even if he could get thru' Noble Sacrifice and Avenge.
4) Mad Scientist (Suggested nerf Deathrattle: Discover a Secret)
Secrets were virtually unplayble before Mad Scientist, and as Mysterious Challenger has showed us "shoe horning" mechanics into the game in order to make them playable has had horrific consequences. Freeze Mage is one of the most degenerate decks in the format thanks to its total lack of interactivity, while Face Hunter has been the most dominant aggro deck in the format because of its speed and board control. Take away Freeze Mage's free survivability and Face Hunter's free board control and Eagle Horn Bow charges and you begin to return the game to sanity while the "nerfed" version of Mad Scientist creates even greater card diversity by offering card advantage in the form of a variable Secret that even Paladin would want to play.
5) Savage Roar (Suggested nerf +1 Mana)
Force of Nature and Savage Roar have been the design restraint of the Druid class since Beta and the reason Druid can't have nice things, couple that with no game in recent memory ending without Savage Roar for Druid and burst combos between 14 and 22 damage without minions on the board and the threat of the card forcing the opponent to clear, and you have probably one of the most degenerate decks in the game next to Freeze Mage. Increasing the mana cost pushes the fundamental turn back and eliminates the double Savage Roar combo so R&D now has free(er) design space for the class and other decks don't have to clear the board or lose the game starting from Turn 7.
6) Voidcaller (Suggested nerf Deathrattle: Discover a Demon)
Free Mal'Ganis, free Doomguard and even free Lord Jaraxus tip games towards "Do you have Ironbeak Owl or not?" and I'm firmly of the opinion that a card shouldn't have more controlled RNG and mana reduction than Unstable Portal, Bane of Doom. Merlock Knight or Ram Wrangler (or that those cards should even exist in a game that claims to be an Esport). The nerf puts it on par with Tomb Spider and Gorillabot while doing a better job to diversify the number of Demon's that actually see play, while opening up the design space for future high cost Demon's to be printed without having to worry about them being played for free or disregarding their drawbacks.
7) Lord Jaraxus (Suggested nerf +1 Mana)
The card was insane in control matches before Emperor Thaurrisan, now that it can benefit from cost reduction and play an Infernal on the same turn it's essentially a lock in the control match if you can play it on an open board.
8) Emperor Thaurrisan (Suggested nerf Battle Cry)
Do you remember the last time you didn't have an immediate answer for Emperorer and still won the game without going face? Neither do I.
9) Anyfin Can Happen (Suggested nerf, remove it from the game)
A single card that both OTKs and disregards board and card advantage, right ..., and while it's not ruining the game at the moment the fact of the matter is that it's only a matter of time until it does as soon as control takes the mantle.
Does most of the community agree or disagree with this? I'm pretty sure this is the way for the game to go if it wants to return the game towards a more balanced power curve and interactivity, but I'm sure there's more than one way to do that or people who disagree with where the game's design imbalances really are.
Disagree with almost everything OP said.
1. Game is at most balanced spott since release, all classes have balanced winratios according to stats.
2. OP cards dont matter as long as the deck sorounding them is balanced. According to winrates no deck is anywhere near old patron.
3. Freeze mage degenerate? Its the deck with the most skillcap next to oil to play and play against. Has also balanced winratio. Its important for this game. And just the fact you dont like some decks doesnt mean theyr degenerated or anything. Just thats impossble for every deck to be liked by everybody.
4. So actually a NO to all matters in this OP.
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Most of these suggestions are silly. Not that Blizz will implement these anyways, but here's my 2 copper.
1) Fine and reasonable. Shredder needs its stats reduced, though maybe 3/3 would be better than 4/2. Maybe.
2) Somewhat mitigates the issues with Dr. Balanced, but IMHO the Boom Bots themselves are the real problem here. Step in the right direction but there are probably more intelligent ways to nerf Dr 7.
3) Doesn't solve the real problem with the card, which is being able to get 5 free secrets into play without any possible counter. Irrelevant change.
4) Agree that scientist is a little too strong. Not sure if this is the proper way to fix it though...honestly it might see even more play and be even more ubiquitous after this change.
5) Probably fine. However, I'm biased since I utterly loathe the druid combo.
6) Unnecessary. Voidcaller is fine. Yes, sometimes you get really silly plays out of it, but it can be played around and it requires some skill (and luck) to use it properly.
7) Jaraxxus is OP? Fucking lol.
8) Unnecessary IMO. By the time Emperor comes out there's plenty of ways to counter it, and rarely has it been an auto-loss for me personally. I can understand the frustration if you're not able to clear it after 3 turns though.
9) Fucking lol. Holy salt, batman, is someone getting rekt by murloc pallies?
TL;DR: Not great ideas overall. Thinly-disguised QQ post.
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I will just say on the warlock cards. Voidcaller is stuck a lot of times in your hand with no demon or the other way when for example you got malganis but no voidcaller, and malganis is just stuck in the hand, card becomes useless until turn 9. Voidcaller is rng based, sometimes its not gonna get the demon you want and fucks up the game, some times its not gonna give you a demon at all. If you make it discover a demon, believe me its gonna be op, frees 2 card slots in demon handlock and ensures you get the demon all the time, plus out of 3 there is definetely gonna be a big demon. Ever played Bane Of Doom?
Jaraxxus is not op, the only games you want to use it is against control warrior or priest, where against control warrior you need to play around grom all the time and taunt up and sometimes against priest to play around auchenai.
I agree on Anyfin, it is a horribly, horribly, horribly designed card. Without a doubt the worst I have ever seen in HS. That card is basically the singular death sentence of any control-heavy meta, ever.
As for MC, change it into deathrattle - done. Then it requires thinking and can be countered.
Shredder stats nerf is fine. I think Kripp has me convinced that 3/3 is better than 4/2, but either way would help.
Dr. Boom doesn't need a nerf really; people have learned to play around him. But I would love to see a very slight nerf. Reduce his health to 6 and reduce maximum Boom Bot damage to 3.
Mysterious Challenger I would reduce all the way down to 4/5.
For Mad Scientist, Deathrattles will never trigger Discover because they can happen on your opponent's turn. Too bad, as Discover a Secret is an interesting strategy direction to go. In the meantime, I think I like the option where Mad Scientist puts a secret into your hand instead of into the battlefield.
I agree it would be nice to have a small nerf to FoN + SR so that other midrange Druids can exist. But bumping the mana cost of Savage Roar doesn't sit right with me, not sure why.
The others ... don't really need nerfing.
Deathrattle and discover will not work because that can involve the player doing something on the opponent's turn, which is NOT something done in Hearthstone. There has never been a real way to interact interact on your opponents turn on in Hearthstone besides arguably secrets.
Some of your nerfs don't even make any sense. Piloted Shredder's main problem was it traded to well for most midrange cards such as Azure Drake and Goblin Blastmage, but would "win" (I have lack of a better word) making it a 2 for 1 in most scenarios. Mysterious Challenger as a 5/5 won't even hurt it, in some scenarios it can even help with Competitive Spirit making it a 6/6 which is out of BGH ( This can be easily wrong assumption but making a 5/5 is no better)
I think Mysterious Challenger should be a 4/4.
Also there is NOTHING wrong with Savage Roar or Force of Nature on their own, its the combo that's the problem. I'd prefer keeping Savage Roar at the same cost but change the text to "Give your characters without charge +2 Attack this turn." Simple and makes sure the cards can't interact.
That said that only card on the list I expect Blizzard to actual nerf is Mysterious Challenger.
I guess what people sometimes don't understand is how delicate the meta is. Balance changes are implemented in a very limited fashion and only as a last resort. If the proposals in this thread were to all be implemented, the meta, and the game would likely spin off its axis and implode into oblivion. I suspect the only change we will see regarding the Secret Paladin is possibly more tools to deal with secrets in the next expansion.
Oh, and to add, the day that the opponent gets to dick around during my turn is the day I quit this game. I already have to wait for them to dick around on their own turn.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
Piloted Shredder is fine. It's a neutral card and it's actually gotten worse since it was originally added because of some of the potential bad outcomes such as Darnassus Aspirant.
Another card that is fine as is. Why? Because everyone can access it because its a neutral card.
Agree it deserves a change but your proposal won't fix the problem. Changing its Battlecry to a Joust would be more ideal. Then it would be less of an "I Win" button.
This card is fine. Though Blizzard needs to add more defenses against Secrets like Kezan Mystic.
This card is fine now but I agree they have to keep an eye on it as the card universe expands and Druids have more and more ways to reliably have lots of minions in play in the mid-game regardless what you do.
This card is fine.
This card is fine.
I'm not sure what your nerf is but in any event this card is high value in certain situations but I don't think its a problem.
The fact that you find a deck archetype annoying is not a norm in itself, and does not say much. Seventeen million people, across thirty million accounts, are playing the game. Presumably, there are millions of people who find any particular deck "annoying." A few thousand enjoy anonymously posting their annoyance online. Not exactly a "community," but that is what people call it. If you wish to summarize these threads, no one will stop you, and there is a ready-made mutual grieving society that will extol your wisdom.
However, you are correct - "archetypes in the meta are not evenly distributed." As I wrote earlier, making all archetypes equally viable among all classes is not ever going to happen. Nor is that a fault of lazy design. Rather, the metagame shifts seasonally, as intended. Again - the metagame appears to be more balanced than ever before - about twenty different decks are viable. TempoStorm guesses that eight of nine classes have at least one Tier Two deck. Some are aggro, others are midrange, some are combo, and others are control. In addition, more cards are seeing play than ever before - the introduction of Reno has allowed the ladder to play dozens of cards which previously weren't seeing play.
And none of this matters, because some people think one or another deck (or archetype?) is "annoying."
To be fair only Mysterious Challenger is really too strong... I would change it so that the effect only triggers at the beginning of the opponent's next turn.
The rest of the cards should stay as they are... imo.
My mother was a Murlock, so what ?
The health of a metagame can be measured by variety. Currently there are more viable decks than there has ever been.
Paladin - Midrange , Secret , Anyfin
Mage - Mech, tempo, fatigue, freeze
Druid - Midrange, EggDruid, combo
Warrior - Patron, Control
Priest - Control, Dragon
Warlock - Zoo, Demon midrange, Reno ( demon and F/S version ), combo, handlock, combo reno, Malylock
Rogue - Raptor, oil, mill, malygod
Hunter - Midrange, hybrid, face *not adding dragon hunter just yet even tho it's on the rise*
Shaman - Midrange, face
That's 29 viable decks off the top of my head, probably missing a few. I'd say the metagame and game is very healthy right now. Admittedly though, it could be better with some MC nerfs.
Dr.Boom - Making it cost 8 mana would hardly make a difference. People would still the ever living hell out of it. The problem and frustration of this card lies in boombots. Sadly, i cant see what they can do to boombots without totally changing the card. Making it a 7/5 would make it a bit more manageable. Just bad design in general and sets the standard too high for future legendaries and 7 drops in general.
MC - Easily fixed by making it a deatrattle instead of battlecry. As cancerous as secret paladin I hate when developers totally invalidate deck archetypes with nerfs.
Mad Scientist - Freeze Mage and Face hunter are the reasons for nerfing this card? Freezemage is a high skill deck ( believe it or not ) and it's interaction problems go far beyond mad scientist. Face Hunter has fallen off and the problem with that deck def isn't mad scientist. Nerfing it also REALLY hurts decks like midrange hunter and tempo mage, both of which are fine atm.
Savage Roar - I agree with you that it is a design constraint, but the solution of adding 1 mana to the combo, i cant see making that big of a difference. If we really want to this gone we would have to add 2 mana to the cost, making the combo impossible without innervate/coin/ET But if we do that, what does druid have left?
Voidcaller - Card is fine.
LJ - Card is fine and adding 1 mana wouldnt make a diff in most cases.
ET- The card actually makes the game less predictable which is a good and bad thing. Maybe if it reduced both players hands by 1. IDk just throwing out ideas. Think the card is fine.
Anyfin - It's balanced, hate to break it to you. Frustrating, sure, but def doesn't need a nerf. The argument against it is often so exaggerated it's hard to have a real discussion about it. "they just stall the game till turn 10 and instantly win!!!" Uh no, lol.
That's IF you manage you to kill off every murlock you have before 10, which if you ever played anyfin decks, you know is virtually impossible, nor do you want to mulligan hard for your murlocks in most matchups.
On top of that it's 10 mana so to play the first one you would have to have the advantage on board in order to have the luxury to play such a heavy card. It's balanced. Freeze mage is far more effective and far more uninteractive and gets half the QQ this deck gets. My guess would that a vast majority of players have a tough time adapting to decks like this, just as they did with freeze mage in the past.
1) Piloted Shredder (Suggested nerf, -1 Health)
I like the change, this card is hard to balance because 2 drops are usually decent.
2) Dr. Boom (Suggested nerf, +1 Mana)
I would change boom bots to do 0-3 damage. A very slight nerf, because the damage of bots is the imbalance really. 7/7 is easy to deal with.
3) Mysterious Challenger (Suggested nerf -1/1 Attack/Health)
Don't like the change, because it is hardy relevant and only makes him immune to BGH next turn. I would suggest mana at 7. Competes with Boom and kills the undefeatable dr6-dr7-dr8 play.
4) Mad Scientist (Suggested nerf Deathrattle: Discover a Secret)
Suggested nerf - 1/2 body
5) Savage Roar (Suggested nerf +1 Mana)
Agree, double combo is problematic mostly and nowadays there are tons on sticky minions making Savage Roar a little too strong for it's cost.
Others don't need a nerf, they are good yes, but don't break game.