Hearthpwn

Guys, brains on now for somce seconds:

What would have happened if they had changed Warsong Commander to that:

I was suggesting that WC should actively givecharge to minions that have 3 or less attack, not grating it when they're played (like Deckhand has charge while you have a weapon in hand, you loose the weapon he looses the charge) so it would just eliminate the idiotic Berserker with 10+ attack and charge.

In the end, the turn would be the following:

Warsong Commander +4 Patrons +2 Frothing Berserkers: Attack first with Berserkers for 4 damage + 12 from Patrons now, 16 damage in one turn. At the end of their turn the opponent may have 4 Patrons, one Warsong Commander and two 12/3 Berserkers for example. 

The only thing preventing lethal next turn is a Flamestrike AE, the luck of having the direct removal. Your board is probably wiped due to the Whirlwhind effects before. Dealing with that is now able over 2 turns instead of 1. It is better, but would this have been the solution? Was my first thought, too, but in the end....no. 

EVERYONE GET OUT OF HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kappa.

Quote from Tahladnas >>

Quote from TheWamts >>

Quote from Tahladnas >>

Quote from TheWamts >>

Quote from Tahladnas >>

It's not called a nerf, it is called a balace change.

And let's face it, "balance change" is just sugar coating it. They are basically removing Warsong Commander from the game, and replace it with another card which happens to go by the same name.

It's like changing Dr Boom to a 7 mana 7/7 with the ability of "when you play this card, your opponent gains 2 life".

Sure. If that's the case, then just treat it as if Warsong Commander was always like this. Now no more complaints.

Yea i can just cut off your ear and you can treat it like you were born with one ear.

Deal?

I didn't realize a single card in Hearthstone was analogous to a body part. I don't feel that this trade-off is very fair for me.

Somethings are more important to others than it is to you. Maybe u wanna take that into consideration before telling others what they should and shouldn't complain about.

For the record i didn't realize losing an ear is such a big deal to u.

Yeah, I didn't realize it either until I lost half my pinky finger.

Turns out that it was more important to me than some virtual object I don't hold much sentimental value to. :)

Quote from TheWamts >>

Quote from Tahladnas >>

Quote from TheWamts >>

Quote from Tahladnas >>

Quote from TheWamts >>

Quote from Tahladnas >>

It's not called a nerf, it is called a balace change.

And let's face it, "balance change" is just sugar coating it. They are basically removing Warsong Commander from the game, and replace it with another card which happens to go by the same name.

It's like changing Dr Boom to a 7 mana 7/7 with the ability of "when you play this card, your opponent gains 2 life".

Sure. If that's the case, then just treat it as if Warsong Commander was always like this. Now no more complaints.

Yea i can just cut off your ear and you can treat it like you were born with one ear.

Deal?

I didn't realize a single card in Hearthstone was analogous to a body part. I don't feel that this trade-off is very fair for me.

Somethings are more important to others than it is to you. Maybe u wanna take that into consideration before telling others what they should and shouldn't complain about.

For the record i didn't realize losing an ear is such a big deal to u.

Yeah, I didn't realize it either until I lost half my pinky finger.

Turns out that it was more important to me than some virtual object I don't hold much sentimental value to. :)

Surprising eh?

Lesson learned: never think that anything is unimportant. Everything is important, even virtual objects like your soul.

Quote from Tahladnas >>

Quote from TheWamts >>

Quote from Tahladnas >>

Somethings are more important to others than it is to you. Maybe u wanna take that into consideration before telling others what they should and shouldn't complain about.

For the record i didn't realize losing an ear is such a big deal to u.

Yeah, I didn't realize it either until I lost half my pinky finger.

Turns out that it was more important to me than some virtual object I don't hold much sentimental value to. :)

Surprising eh?

Lesson learned: never think that anything is unimportant. Everything is important, even virtual objects like your soul.

Actually, now that I understand what's really important, I'm a lot more willing to let go of things. Different takeaways from the same lesson I guess.

Quote from Human_Guy >>

Quote from wg15 >>

Guys, brains on now for somce seconds:

What would have happened if they had changed Warsong Commander to that:

I was suggesting that WC should actively givecharge to minions that have 3 or less attack, not grating it when they're played (like Deckhand has charge while you have a weapon in hand, you loose the weapon he looses the charge) so it would just eliminate the idiotic Berserker with 10+ attack and charge.

In the end, the turn would be the following:

Warsong Commander +4 Patrons +2 Frothing Berserkers: Attack first with Berserkers for 4 damage + 12 from Patrons now, 16 damage in one turn. At the end of their turn the opponent may have 4 Patrons, one Warsong Commander and two 12/3 Berserkers for example. 

The only thing preventing lethal next turn is a Flamestrike AE, the luck of having the direct removal. Your board is probably wiped due to the Whirlwhind effects before. Dealing with that is now able over 2 turns instead of 1. It is better, but would this have been the solution? Was my first thought, too, but in the end....no. 

It's no longer an OTK? You have an entire turn to respond? WHY WOULDN'T THAT BE GREAT?

Simply because your opponent can flood the board with two big minions and 5 midrange minions in one turn while clearing your board. It is actually still powerful. Of course not an OTK. Still high chances of being able to stay in control and win the next turn.

Quote from DKnG666 >>

Quote from wg15 >>

Quote from Human_Guy >>

Quote from wg15 >>

Guys, brains on now for somce seconds:

What would have happened if they had changed Warsong Commander to that:

I was suggesting that WC should actively givecharge to minions that have 3 or less attack, not grating it when they're played (like Deckhand has charge while you have a weapon in hand, you loose the weapon he looses the charge) so it would just eliminate the idiotic Berserker with 10+ attack and charge.

In the end, the turn would be the following:

Warsong Commander +4 Patrons +2 Frothing Berserkers: Attack first with Berserkers for 4 damage + 12 from Patrons now, 16 damage in one turn. At the end of their turn the opponent may have 4 Patrons, one Warsong Commander and two 12/3 Berserkers for example. 

The only thing preventing lethal next turn is a Flamestrike AE, the luck of having the direct removal. Your board is probably wiped due to the Whirlwhind effects before. Dealing with that is now able over 2 turns instead of 1. It is better, but would this have been the solution? Was my first thought, too, but in the end....no. 

It's no longer an OTK? You have an entire turn to respond? WHY WOULDN'T THAT BE GREAT?

Simply because your opponent can flood the board with two big minions and 5 midrange minions in one turn while clearing your board. It is actually still powerful. Of course not an OTK. Still high chances of being able to stay in control and win the next turn.

You have a point - all I was having in mind with this suggestion was to prevent Berserkers with charge and 10+ dmg which could bring you down from 20+ hp in one turn... you said yourself that the PW's opponent would be in a bad situation but would have a chance to respond... as the combo can be done on turn 7+ the opponent might respond with more than FS (3+ attack minion + Shadowflame, Azure + Consecration, Frost Nova + Doomsayer, Deadly Poison + BF and so on...). Having a chance to respond and just watching being rekt by an OTK makes a huge difference :) 

Don't forget that they still are able to do 16 to 18 dmg in the turn they are played AND flood the board. It would be still stronger than Druid Combo for 9 Mana. And people complain about druid combos, too. Beside that, a Warrior may have a weapon. then we are up to 22 possible dmg in the first turn. Still not an OTK, but still serious burst possible. IMO Druid single combo with 14 dmg from a clear board is the highest you can go without serious unbalancing from those possible combos.

Warsong Commander may be dead now, but seriously, nobody cared before Patron about the dead card it has been before after the first nerf in the Beta. 

Quote from Human_Guy >>

Quote from wg15 >>

Quote from DKnG666 >>

Quote from wg15 >>

Quote from Human_Guy >>

Quote from wg15 >>

Guys, brains on now for somce seconds:

What would have happened if they had changed Warsong Commander to that:

I was suggesting that WC should actively givecharge to minions that have 3 or less attack, not grating it when they're played (like Deckhand has charge while you have a weapon in hand, you loose the weapon he looses the charge) so it would just eliminate the idiotic Berserker with 10+ attack and charge.

In the end, the turn would be the following:

Warsong Commander +4 Patrons +2 Frothing Berserkers: Attack first with Berserkers for 4 damage + 12 from Patrons now, 16 damage in one turn. At the end of their turn the opponent may have 4 Patrons, one Warsong Commander and two 12/3 Berserkers for example. 

The only thing preventing lethal next turn is a Flamestrike AE, the luck of having the direct removal. Your board is probably wiped due to the Whirlwhind effects before. Dealing with that is now able over 2 turns instead of 1. It is better, but would this have been the solution? Was my first thought, too, but in the end....no. 

It's no longer an OTK? You have an entire turn to respond? WHY WOULDN'T THAT BE GREAT?

Simply because your opponent can flood the board with two big minions and 5 midrange minions in one turn while clearing your board. It is actually still powerful. Of course not an OTK. Still high chances of being able to stay in control and win the next turn.

You have a point - all I was having in mind with this suggestion was to prevent Berserkers with charge and 10+ dmg which could bring you down from 20+ hp in one turn... you said yourself that the PW's opponent would be in a bad situation but would have a chance to respond... as the combo can be done on turn 7+ the opponent might respond with more than FS (3+ attack minion + Shadowflame, Azure + Consecration, Frost Nova + Doomsayer, Deadly Poison + BF and so on...). Having a chance to respond and just watching being rekt by an OTK makes a huge difference :) 

Don't forget that they still are able to do 16 to 18 dmg in the turn they are played AND flood the board. It would be still stronger than Druid Combo for 9 Mana. And people complain about druid combos, too. Beside that, a Warrior may have a weapon. then we are up to 22 possible dmg in the first turn. Still not an OTK, but still serious burst possible. IMO Druid single combo with 14 dmg from a clear board is the highest you can go without serious unbalancing from those possible combos.

Warsong Commander may be dead now, but seriously, nobody cared before Patron about the dead card it has been before after the first nerf in the Beta. 

It also takes more cards... duh.

Same amount of card it takes now. If you do not draw them now you will also lose, but drawing in a deck like this is not that hard with Battle Rage.

Answer me this pls: if blizzard anyway take a decision to kill warsong, why not let it be the same card, but cost  7, or even 8 mana, if they do so, patron is still would be playble with emperor, but it's would be hard to make crazy combos with 60-100 damage in one turn. I mean - there is ultimate combo it the game, with Antonidas, 3\2 girls and Echo, you could make infinit firebals for 0 mana and kill even a warrior witn 10000000 armor, but this combo is really hard to make, because you need right cards in right time in your hand and emperor effect as well, and thats wny Blizzard dosen't nefr in yet, so, wny just not make patron combo the same? Just make warsong 8 mana, berserk 5 mana, patron 7 mana, and now it's just funny deck with crazy combo, that could happen in 1 game out of 10, not even close to old patron, no one play it in tournaments, but deck still exist! I'm not the fan of patron, doesn't play even one game with this deck, but it's so sad, that one more deck just deleted from the game. They nerf Leroy and Auctioneer in rigt way, thats happend now? Why in plast the just make bigger cost for cards, and now just make complitely new cards. According to this logic, Leroy text after nefr must says - "tanut" and that it, just 6\2 taunt, not even charge.

Quote from reptaill >>

Answer me this pls: if blizzard anyway take a decision to kill warsong, why not let it be the same card, but cost  7, or even 8 mana, if they do so, patron is still would be playble with emperor, but it's would be hard to make crazy combos with 60-100 damage in one turn. I mean - there is ultimate combo it the game, with Antonidas, 3\2 girls and Echo, you could make infinit firebals for 0 mana and kill even a warrior witn 10000000 armor, but this combo is really hard to make, because you need right cards in right time in your hand and emperor effect as well, and thats wny Blizzard dosen't nefr in yet, so, wny just not make patron combo the same? Just make warsong 8 mana, berserk 5 mana, patron 7 mana, and now it's just funny deck with crazy combo, that could happen in 1 game out of 10, not even close to old patron, no one play it in tournaments, but deck still exist! I'm not the fan of patron, doesn't play even one game with this deck, but it's so sad, that one more deck just deleted from the game. They nerf Leroy and Auctioneer in rigt way, thats happend now? Why in plast the just make bigger cost for cards, and now just make complitely new cards. According to this logic, Leroy text after nefr must says - "tanut" and that it, just 6\2 taunt, not even charge.

1. What you're suggesting would destroy those three cards even worse than the nerf that was proposed

2. The Leeroy nerf and this nerf are not at all the same thing. Leeroy wasn't holding back an entire class design wise.

3. Try to take longer than ten seconds to type out a paragraph, you look like you never passed third grade English.

I'm really upset right now. :(

Goodbye Patron, you will not be missed. This frees up two slots in tournaments now as handlock will be gone too...possibly!

Thank god they got rid of this horrible combo deck.  So happy!

Most of my thoughts have been voiced already in this thread. I was in favour of a GPW nerf and have championed many times on Hearthpwn a change to Warsong Commander to read "Your minions with 3 Attack or less have charge" but am totally against the nerf which has been announced.

Like a lot of people commenting here, I didn't play GPW, I did want a nerf but my inner- game designer is appalled by the severity of the nerf.

Thoughts :

• Grim Patron was a nice idea. Warrior needed a non-wallet archetype and the most exciting option was giving players the tools to make self-damage warrior a proper deck rather than the Tier 6 Raging Worgen versions which existed previously.
• Blizzard's substandard testing (again...) failed to spot the deck which took the community 17 minutes to build and 4 1/2 days to perfect. I don't believe the conspiracy theory that Blizzard knew that this broken, unfun deck existed and deliberately released it to sell BRM packs.
• The number of upvotes to several comments on this thread suggest that the community strongly feels that the "Your minions with 3 Attack or less have charge" nerf was the correct solution.
• With that nerf, my guess is that GPW would have been Tier 3 : competitive to a point and capable of being extremely good if the meta shifted too far towards its good match-ups. The deck would not have been nerfed out of existence but would have become somewhat niche.
• Blizzard didn't opt to nerf because of the likes of you and me shouting for it on Hearthpwn or other forums. They did this because GPW was making top level e-sports tournaments boring. Blizzard knows that a healthy e-sports scene is key to keeping the game popular and selling packs to millions of ordinary players.
• Perhaps there is some truth to the claim that Blizzard have overnerfed in order to clear design space for future minions which you would not want to have Charge but somehow I doubt it. This is all about keeping the tournament scene healthy and varied.

Personally, I don't think that Hearthstone should include OTK combos at all. I know that many intelligent players will shoot me down for this statement but I just feel that, in a game without instant-speed effects or spells, there is no way to foil OTK strategies. OK, you can play plenty of Taunt minions but then your opponent just retains the OTK elements in his/her hand until he/she has cleared the Taunt minions and then they unload. This doesn't make for fun, interesting games.

I am not saying that I think Hearthstone should have instant effects. Passing of priority just isn't fun in an online environment (see MTGO...).

i mean.. at least make the new Warsong Commander 2 Mana so it would see Arena play.

Quote from Yuvalito >>

i mean.. at least make the new Warsong Commander 2 Mana so it would see Arena play.

Actually, at 2 mana she could even see a ranked play. I mean a 2/3 with an upside for 2 is kind of average minion, and you can play her t2, then t3 Southsea Deckhand and win axe, the deckhand will then get +1 attack and become a Wolfrider for 1 and weapon. Heh.

Quote from vesperbot >>

Quote from Yuvalito >>

i mean.. at least make the new Warsong Commander 2 Mana so it would see Arena play.

Actually, at 2 mana she could even see a ranked play. I mean a 2/3 with an upside for 2 is kind of average minion, and you can play her t2, then t3 Southsea Deckhand and win axe, the deckhand will then get +1 attack and become a Wolfrider for 1 and weapon. Heh.

If they made her 2 mana i would be cool with the nerf. It may destroy Patron, but it will help to bring Aggro Warrior into ladder with a strong (really not OP) card

Quote from Blasphe >>

This nerf was a long time coming. Let's be honest if the patron deck only worked because of this 1 card...  The deck wasn't actually "strong" on it's own.  Commander carried the deck and needed to be taken down a peg. 

This guy obviously understands combo decks lol. All combo decks rely on pieces of the combo much like gears in a machine, take a gear out the machine won't work, as an example savage roar on combo druid. I wasn't a fan of the patron warrior but this is overkill.

 It bugs me that Ben doesn't even mention that any thought was put into what decks the new Warsong Commander would fit into. They balance the card around wanting it to remain simple, around wanting it to look familiar, around wanting it to have an effect that fits its theme - but they don't balance it around fitting it in with other cards?

It's painfully obvious that this card just doesn't fit anywhere, Raid Leader doesn't fit anywhere and it has a significantly better effect in exchange for 1 HP. I really think if you're going to just outright kill an entire deck - which they are, you should at-least try to create another one. 

Quote from DatJake >>

People be like "All you have to do is learn to play around GP!"

And then, they like "GP only thing stopping aggro!, aggro=king now!"

lol...

yup lol...

control warrior is killing aggro now. no need for the lousy "everyone get in here"