With the rune system (and the fact it's a new class) it was obvious DK was going to be broken in arena and have a massive advantage over any other class.
1) Any rune immediately limits card options which helps with the synergy of the cards you've already got
2) All the class are all pretty good because they all come from the new power-creeped Hearthstone and they all currently feature the undead synergy.
3) If you get a triple rune early you basically end up with a constructed style deck because there arent enough cards for it to not end up that way.
4) Discover effects are much more powerful and consistent (see 2).
While you are correct with your Points, it wasnt THAT obvious bevorehand that it would be Like this.knowing what you posted, they could have easyly pre-adjusted the drop rates of certain cards,or class cards vs. Neutral in genaral, for DK. Something they have done with multiple classes in the past... But come to think of it, maybe it was obvious after all, considering we are talking about Blizzard. I doubt that they even did a single Test draft with DK, Just to get a feel with what Kind of Decks you end Up in DK Arena...
While the obove fix (adjusting drop rates for DK) ist easy enough, I kinda agree with certain streamers: it IS alot of fun to Play auch DK Decks, even If you face other Overpowered DKs. There ist Just alot going ob in a Match, much much netter then the Last boring Arena meta. So what they actually need to do is heavyly adjust the rates for all the other 9 classes...
3-1 arena, playing against triple Frost DK with double Frostwyrm's Fury, double Frost Strike and Lady Deathwhisper. Yep, nothing unbalanced going on here.
A ban (or at least a significant appearance rate drop) for Discover cards in DK arena decks would be a nice thing to begin with.
Lady Deathwhisper copies all frost spells in your hand. I think we can work out what happened here....
We definitely can, however, it hardly helps the issue at hand. Did I mention that he started with 0 copies of Frostwyrm's Fury in the deck and generated 3 of them over 10 turns?
Any means to generate additional DK spells/minions (especially triple Rune ones) in arena should be curtailed, at the very least until the initial nerfs come around.
There's also something to be said about being able to draft triple Rune decks at all, but I'm not sure how to deal with that properly.
Well no, you didn't mention that. But that means you are complaining about random generation in the game itself, rather than a particular class or the Arena card selection mechanic (which I have my own annoyances with - in particular, the card quality given to Paladin which is STILL ridiculously strong after all these years and never seems to change).
As for random generation of things in-game, that's different, because that's the same for everyone and everyone gets the same chances of generating something useful. If he generated 3 good cards in one game, then he was lucky for that game - it was just unfortunate for you that it happened when against you rather than someone else. Lady FrostMultiplier* is one of those cards that is really specific in terms of what she does, and could easily have been a terrible pick choice if not provided a good means of Frost spells to utilise her. Even in constructed, she is seldomly used at the moment.
It is what it is, really. I have played A LOT of arena recently and the more I play it, the more I hate it. But not because of DK. Because the format itself is really terrible and aggravating to play.
I've just finished a DK run in arena. I went 5-3. My 5 wins - against 4 non-DK classes and 1 DK. The games against the non-DK weren't even close.
My 3 losses - you guessed it, all DK. Two had 3 blood decks and one discovered a 7 mana The Scourge which was game ending on it's own.
The counter to DK in arena is DK it would seem....
Also - 50% of my opponents were DK's. That's pretty skewed for a class you should only get to pick < 1/3 of the time, which either means people are really lucky at getting DK, or the only decks winning frequently to get through to the next tier are DK (assuming that's how the matchmaking works).
Obviously this is just 1 run, but I think it illustrates the points well.
Also - 50% of my opponents were DK's. That's pretty skewed for a class you should only get to pick < 1/3 of the time, which either means people are really lucky at getting DK, or the only decks winning frequently to get through to the next tier are DK (assuming that's how the matchmaking works).
Annoyingly, for my last 5-6 arena runs, I havent been offered DK even once. So I guess I know where all my goes have been going XD
The biggest farce of all with Death Knight is if they end up copying your cards they can't use half of them, because other classes inexplicably don't accrue corpses so any cards that use them simply fail even if they have minions die.
The devs had no idea what they were doing when they decided on that design. With so many classes like Priest and Rogue relying on "stolen" cards to have the mechanics simply not function?
The biggest farce of all with Death Knight is if they end up copying your cards they can't use half of them, because other classes inexplicably don't accrue corpses so any cards that use them simply fail even if they have minions die.
The devs had no idea what they were doing when they decided on that design. With so many classes like Priest and Rogue relying on "stolen" cards to have the mechanics simply not function?
You could easily say the same thing for classes that rely on weapons or armor etc - two things that Burgle Priest specifically almost never uses. It's not something new, so not really a "bad design decision" by any means. It's intentionally the downside of that whole mechanic.
The way DK drafts with runes seems so off. For some reason you get offered insane amounts of unholy rune cards, way more than any other rune. It's normal to see DKs with over half their deck being unholy class cards. But I really wanted to try playing a blood DK in arena so I avoided the unholy card spam until I locked in a 2 blood rune card - my draft picks after locking in blood became immediately shit and I only managed to pick up 5 total blood cards, whereas with unholy there's literally one in every pick.
Something is fucked up with the unholy offering rates compared to others, and DK would be a much healthier class if you could choose the runes before drafting a deck.
Right now arena is just unholy DK and paladin, because paladin seems to have fucked up buckets and 3-4x seal of blood is normal to expect and is a broken card in arena.
Right now arena is just unholy DK and paladin, because paladin seems to have fucked up buckets and 3-4x seal of blood is normal to expect and is a broken card in arena.
This is not really so when you play as paladin (not against one). Seal of blood is offered only now and then - not as often as it's required to oppose those DKs. But what is true is that a paladin met on 3+ wins is definitely going to have 2+ seals. Or bannermen. Or both. One without them is very unlikely to claim that many wins.
Agreed. Seal is not offered that often from my experience. But it does come up in lots of decks due to being discovered repeatedly by a lot of the current meta Paladin cards.
The biggest farce of all with Death Knight is if they end up copying your cards they can't use half of them, because other classes inexplicably don't accrue corpses so any cards that use them simply fail even if they have minions die.
The devs had no idea what they were doing when they decided on that design. With so many classes like Priest and Rogue relying on "stolen" cards to have the mechanics simply not function?
You could easily say the same thing for classes that rely on weapons or armor etc - two things that Burgle Priest specifically almost never uses. It's not something new, so not really a "bad design decision" by any means. It's intentionally the downside of that whole mechanic.
No, you couldn't. Because if I copy a Deadly Poison, I can use it on a weapon that I randomly generated. If I copy a "Discount your next fire spell" in a class that has no fire spells, I can still use it if I end up getting a fire spell somehow. If I get a "Increase the damage of your hero power" in Demon Hunter, I can use it if I randomly end up with a Finley that lets me choose Hunter hero power. There's always a way.
If I copy a card that says "Gives 4 corpses" and a card that spends 2 corpses, they will NEVER WORK.
Do you think they would they work if you copied a DK hero (which obviously doesn't exist yet)? My thinking is that they would, because the DK loses access to corpses if it changes hero, so it seems logical that a non-DK class would gain access to corpses if it became one.
In general terms I do agree with you though, but at the same time disocovering/stealing from your opponent is always going to be potentially very sub-optimal.
True - but I can remember many priest games where I end up with a deadly poison and no means to use it.
I do agree though, and I think what makes it most frustrating is that there are a large percentage of the cards for the class which use the corpse mechanic. Not all are unplayable without corpses but they're very often rubbish. This is also true of warrior cards that use armour though (and to a lesser extent warlock discard cards).
I think this will seem like less of an issue once the initial DK interest subsides. Right now a good 1/3 of my games are against DK.
While you are correct with your Points, it wasnt THAT obvious bevorehand that it would be Like this.knowing what you posted, they could have easyly pre-adjusted the drop rates of certain cards,or class cards vs. Neutral in genaral, for DK. Something they have done with multiple classes in the past... But come to think of it, maybe it was obvious after all, considering we are talking about Blizzard. I doubt that they even did a single Test draft with DK, Just to get a feel with what Kind of Decks you end Up in DK Arena...
While the obove fix (adjusting drop rates for DK) ist easy enough, I kinda agree with certain streamers: it IS alot of fun to Play auch DK Decks, even If you face other Overpowered DKs. There ist Just alot going ob in a Match, much much netter then the Last boring Arena meta. So what they actually need to do is heavyly adjust the rates for all the other 9 classes...
Well no, you didn't mention that. But that means you are complaining about random generation in the game itself, rather than a particular class or the Arena card selection mechanic (which I have my own annoyances with - in particular, the card quality given to Paladin which is STILL ridiculously strong after all these years and never seems to change).
As for random generation of things in-game, that's different, because that's the same for everyone and everyone gets the same chances of generating something useful. If he generated 3 good cards in one game, then he was lucky for that game - it was just unfortunate for you that it happened when against you rather than someone else.
Lady FrostMultiplier* is one of those cards that is really specific in terms of what she does, and could easily have been a terrible pick choice if not provided a good means of Frost spells to utilise her. Even in constructed, she is seldomly used at the moment.
It is what it is, really. I have played A LOT of arena recently and the more I play it, the more I hate it. But not because of DK. Because the format itself is really terrible and aggravating to play.
I've just finished a DK run in arena. I went 5-3. My 5 wins - against 4 non-DK classes and 1 DK. The games against the non-DK weren't even close.
My 3 losses - you guessed it, all DK. Two had 3 blood decks and one discovered a 7 mana The Scourge which was game ending on it's own.
The counter to DK in arena is DK it would seem....
Also - 50% of my opponents were DK's. That's pretty skewed for a class you should only get to pick < 1/3 of the time, which either means people are really lucky at getting DK, or the only decks winning frequently to get through to the next tier are DK (assuming that's how the matchmaking works).
Obviously this is just 1 run, but I think it illustrates the points well.
Annoyingly, for my last 5-6 arena runs, I havent been offered DK even once. So I guess I know where all my goes have been going XD
The biggest farce of all with Death Knight is if they end up copying your cards they can't use half of them, because other classes inexplicably don't accrue corpses so any cards that use them simply fail even if they have minions die.
The devs had no idea what they were doing when they decided on that design. With so many classes like Priest and Rogue relying on "stolen" cards to have the mechanics simply not function?
You could easily say the same thing for classes that rely on weapons or armor etc - two things that Burgle Priest specifically almost never uses. It's not something new, so not really a "bad design decision" by any means. It's intentionally the downside of that whole mechanic.
The key word here is 'almost'. There are sources of armour and weapons for everyone, and burglars have even more options.
But.
Nobody else has access to corpse generation.
Well, I almost never play arena and few days ago tried DK once. Got 12:2. Last few games were only other DKs. So yeah, there is a problem.
There is also a problem with draft system currently.
Recently I drafted a Paladin deck with like 5 or 6 Alliance Bannerman.
Guess what type of deck had the only paladin I lost to? Yep, 5 bannermen in 6 turns.
The way DK drafts with runes seems so off. For some reason you get offered insane amounts of unholy rune cards, way more than any other rune. It's normal to see DKs with over half their deck being unholy class cards. But I really wanted to try playing a blood DK in arena so I avoided the unholy card spam until I locked in a 2 blood rune card - my draft picks after locking in blood became immediately shit and I only managed to pick up 5 total blood cards, whereas with unholy there's literally one in every pick.
Something is fucked up with the unholy offering rates compared to others, and DK would be a much healthier class if you could choose the runes before drafting a deck.
Right now arena is just unholy DK and paladin, because paladin seems to have fucked up buckets and 3-4x seal of blood is normal to expect and is a broken card in arena.
This is not really so when you play as paladin (not against one). Seal of blood is offered only now and then - not as often as it's required to oppose those DKs. But what is true is that a paladin met on 3+ wins is definitely going to have 2+ seals. Or bannermen. Or both. One without them is very unlikely to claim that many wins.
Agreed. Seal is not offered that often from my experience. But it does come up in lots of decks due to being discovered repeatedly by a lot of the current meta Paladin cards.
No, you couldn't. Because if I copy a Deadly Poison, I can use it on a weapon that I randomly generated. If I copy a "Discount your next fire spell" in a class that has no fire spells, I can still use it if I end up getting a fire spell somehow. If I get a "Increase the damage of your hero power" in Demon Hunter, I can use it if I randomly end up with a Finley that lets me choose Hunter hero power. There's always a way.
If I copy a card that says "Gives 4 corpses" and a card that spends 2 corpses, they will NEVER WORK.
Do you think they would they work if you copied a DK hero (which obviously doesn't exist yet)? My thinking is that they would, because the DK loses access to corpses if it changes hero, so it seems logical that a non-DK class would gain access to corpses if it became one.
In general terms I do agree with you though, but at the same time disocovering/stealing from your opponent is always going to be potentially very sub-optimal.
There is a difference between suboptimal and nonfunctional. Cards like Corpse Explosion and Army of the Dead do NOTHING in other classes.
True - but I can remember many priest games where I end up with a deadly poison and no means to use it.
I do agree though, and I think what makes it most frustrating is that there are a large percentage of the cards for the class which use the corpse mechanic. Not all are unplayable without corpses but they're very often rubbish. This is also true of warrior cards that use armour though (and to a lesser extent warlock discard cards).
I think this will seem like less of an issue once the initial DK interest subsides. Right now a good 1/3 of my games are against DK.
30 matches - 21 DK. Thx, blizzard, you managed to screw up again