Iksar made it very clear on Twitter that just outvaluing your opponent wont be a viable wincon going forward, meaning that pure control is now a thing of the past.
They wanna give control proactive wincons, so they will practically become combo decks with control tools, which is not the same.
This is not something any nerfs will change, as it is part of their new design filosophy. They will aim to make these new combo decks slower and less efficient with the nerfs, but thats about it. HS is in the middle of a huge transition rn.
How will the end of pure control affect the game? Was hoping to see opinions about it.
I'm guessing that they've had instructions from the higher ups to reduce game times and make HS more accessable to mobile players with the aim for games to rarely go past turn 10. I'm guessing control will never come back unless it's a deck that they didn't play test, but they'll keep printing control cards to appeal to the faithful.
I'm guessing that they've had instructions from the higher ups to reduce game times and make HS more accessable to mobile players with the aim for games to rarely go past turn 10. I'm guessing control will never come back unless it's a deck that they didn't play test, but they'll keep printing control cards to appeal to the faithful.
Thats an interesting point, long games are bad for mobile players indeed. Not reaching turn 10 is still a balancing issue imo, games shouldnt end THIS fast, just not take 10+ minutes imo.
Depends what is meant by proactive wincons. Does Rag count? Dragonqueen Alex? Control with proactive wincons doesn't feel like it has to be combo; just topend counts, right, as long as it's not a fatigue gameplan?
I am a mobile player and I actually miss fatigue games I think one of the best metas we had was the meta before Infinite value fatigue warrior used to be a resource war and whoever got more value out of their control tools won. Overall the real issue is infinite value not control in itself people can choose their play-style if you want to play 5 minute matches just play aggro it’s not that complicated. I miss the gvg and even old gods form of control.
Depends what is meant by proactive wincons. Does Rag count? Dragonqueen Alex? Control with proactive wincons doesn't feel like it has to be combo; just topend counts, right, as long as it's not a fatigue gameplan?
Any deck that cares more about disrupting the opponents gameplan than progressing their own will probably disappear, everything else should be fine.
Depends what is meant by proactive wincons. Does Rag count? Dragonqueen Alex? Control with proactive wincons doesn't feel like it has to be combo; just topend counts, right, as long as it's not a fatigue gameplan?
Any deck that cares more about disrupting the opponents game than progressing their own should disappear, everything else will be fine.
Why? This is a card game, concepts like disruption and control should be part of it.
If the tools are way too good to do that only control exists and that is bad, the CW meta prenerf Boom was a good example.
But when you don't have at all then only combo and aggro exists and the game turn itself into a Solitaire and it is bad too.
The midground of this two extremes are the best with all decks archetypes being viable.
This is prolly a result of all the people whining on here about created cards and priest card generation. Thanks!
It's unfair to blame ALL of it on that. As others have mentioned, the Control Warrior with Dr. Boom that lead to 1 hour or more mirror matches was just as bad.
I think this is an attempt to reign in those kinds of excesses. The Control Warrior and Control Priest matches that went on forever cause their game plan was just to drain you of any possiblities to still win, instead of having an actual game plan to win themselves.
Time spent playing a game shouldn't be a measuring stick for how good it was.
You can have an interesting game AND be done in 10 min. They are not mutually exclusive.
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Depends what is meant by proactive wincons. Does Rag count? Dragonqueen Alex? Control with proactive wincons doesn't feel like it has to be combo; just topend counts, right, as long as it's not a fatigue gameplan?
Any deck that cares more about disrupting the opponents game than progressing their own should disappear, everything else will be fine.
Any deck that aims at playing solitaire should disappear, everything else will be fine. It's all about the point of view, I guess.
It will be interesting what nerfs they make, whether they let control back in or clear the way for aggro. I know the 2 are generally intertwined but we'll see what they favour the most.
Iksar thinks its more fun, when you opponet draws 11 cards, plays 9 cards and deal 23 damage in a single turn to your face while you sitting there, bored to death, waiting for your turn.
Depends what is meant by proactive wincons. Does Rag count? Dragonqueen Alex? Control with proactive wincons doesn't feel like it has to be combo; just topend counts, right, as long as it's not a fatigue gameplan?
Any deck that cares more about disrupting the opponents game than progressing their own should disappear, everything else will be fine.
Any deck that aims at playing solitaire should disappear, everything else will be fine. It's all about the point of view, I guess.
I meant thats what they will probably aim for, considering Iksar's tweets. This doesnt represent my point of view. It all comes down to how much they manage to slow the quest decks down I guess.
Im personally quite bummed by this decision to not support Control as a viable archetype. I only really play control decks, and usually my own creations. I love long, thought out games, where every decision has LASTING impacts. I loathe aggro decks because I find them too easy to win with, and boring as hell to play.
I get no satifaction from 5 turn games, besides doing a last minute legend run or something , where I have 6 hours left in the season, and decide to pick up Secret Paladin, for example. As control games last 20 minutes or more, they arent a good choice for time constraint climbs.
I see the game has crossed a line they will prob never go back from regarding the power level spikes, and the speed of the game. They are obviously marketing the game to younger, shorter attention span people, where every game consists of OP draw, into combo finisers , or str8 aggro decks winning on turn 5 or 6.
The game used to feel more like a legit strategic card game, where your decision mattered and could affect the outcome.
Today though, so many games feel like it doesnt matter what I do. The outcome is inevitable. Thats not a game for 2, thats a 1 sided beat down.
Im not happy Control is gone, and will be slowly playing less and less Hearthstone. Its been over 4 years for me and its been a good run. I just dont enjoy where the game is and is going.
This is prolly a result of all the people whining on here about created cards and priest card generation. Thanks!
It's unfair to blame ALL of it on that. As others have mentioned, the Control Warrior with Dr. Boom that lead to 1 hour or more mirror matches was just as bad.
I think this is an attempt to reign in those kinds of excesses. The Control Warrior and Control Priest matches that went on forever cause their game plan was just to drain you of any possiblities to still win, instead of having an actual game plan to win themselves.
Time spent playing a game shouldn't be a measuring stick for how good it was.
You can have an interesting game AND be done in 10 min. They are not mutually exclusive.
I agree the hour long mirror matches were a bit much, but I would rather do that anyday over a quick game. As a chess player, I value my thought energy, and dont mind investing it into something like a control match. So Infinite creation of resources was the problem with Control Warrior, and same with Priest. So we can tone that aspect down and still have control . But to say drainging your opponent of resources isnt a plan is incorrect. That is the literal plan of Control. To drain you and outlast you into fatigue. Its a matter of preference, and used to be up until now, a legitimate play style.
Hearthstone never had fully viable control decks the same way Magic did. The lack of interaction in your opponent's turn will always favor aggro and combo. This is by design in the core mechanics of the game.
I can't remember a single meta when it felt control truly was the best strategy. There were outliers like Control Warrior pre-Naxx, Big Priest and Togwaggle Druid - but if you pick the metas and top decks across 7 years, it's always aggro, midrange, combo or "beatdown" (like Handlock, Jade and Clown Druid).
What they all have in common is to try to finish the game before turn 8.
The release of Tickatus was an obvious signal but I hoped it was just a “mistake”. Iksar’s statement confirm it was not, and I couldn’t agree less with him.
Someone above stated that he must be complying with order to make HS faster and simpler, but in a way it may finally help me quit if there’s not way to play control anymore. It’s already why I don’t really play standard anymore.
The release of Tickatus was an obvious signal but I hoped it was just a “mistake”. Iksar’s statement confirm it was not, and I couldn’t agree less with him.
Someone above stated that he must be complying with order to make HS faster and simpler, but in a way it may finally help me quit if there’s not way to play control anymore. It’s already why I don’t really play standard anymore.
My guess is they just dont want value/fatigue to be control's primary wincon anymore, but that can still win you games against aggro for example, just not against the mirror. Much like how Control Warrior has been for a while with Silas OTK.
They also made clear they are not happy with how fast quest decks are being completed, so their goal is probably something like "if you let the opponent's deck take 12+ turns, you should lose the game". Getting the right amount of turns where both players would be satisfied is the tricky part.
If game length is the issue they could easily reduce the turn timer. This would still favour aggor decks who arguably have fewer decision points than control decks. It would also indirectly nerf discover and OTK/crazy draw as the animations would (presumably) be the same.
To be honest I think this would be a good thing more generally. Even as a predominantly control priest player I feel the turns are too long.
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Iksar made it very clear on Twitter that just outvaluing your opponent wont be a viable wincon going forward, meaning that pure control is now a thing of the past.
They wanna give control proactive wincons, so they will practically become combo decks with control tools, which is not the same.
This is not something any nerfs will change, as it is part of their new design filosophy. They will aim to make these new combo decks slower and less efficient with the nerfs, but thats about it. HS is in the middle of a huge transition rn.
How will the end of pure control affect the game? Was hoping to see opinions about it.
I'm guessing that they've had instructions from the higher ups to reduce game times and make HS more accessable to mobile players with the aim for games to rarely go past turn 10. I'm guessing control will never come back unless it's a deck that they didn't play test, but they'll keep printing control cards to appeal to the faithful.
Thats an interesting point, long games are bad for mobile players indeed. Not reaching turn 10 is still a balancing issue imo, games shouldnt end THIS fast, just not take 10+ minutes imo.
Depends what is meant by proactive wincons. Does Rag count? Dragonqueen Alex? Control with proactive wincons doesn't feel like it has to be combo; just topend counts, right, as long as it's not a fatigue gameplan?
I am a mobile player and I actually miss fatigue games I think one of the best metas we had was the meta before Infinite value fatigue warrior used to be a resource war and whoever got more value out of their control tools won. Overall the real issue is infinite value not control in itself people can choose their play-style if you want to play 5 minute matches just play aggro it’s not that complicated. I miss the gvg and even old gods form of control.
thats just sad. at least in wild its possible to play control in some way...
Any deck that cares more about disrupting the opponents gameplan than progressing their own will probably disappear, everything else should be fine.
Why? This is a card game, concepts like disruption and control should be part of it.
If the tools are way too good to do that only control exists and that is bad, the CW meta prenerf Boom was a good example.
But when you don't have at all then only combo and aggro exists and the game turn itself into a Solitaire and it is bad too.
The midground of this two extremes are the best with all decks archetypes being viable.
This is prolly a result of all the people whining on here about created cards and priest card generation. Thanks!
It's unfair to blame ALL of it on that. As others have mentioned, the Control Warrior with Dr. Boom that lead to 1 hour or more mirror matches was just as bad.
I think this is an attempt to reign in those kinds of excesses. The Control Warrior and Control Priest matches that went on forever cause their game plan was just to drain you of any possiblities to still win, instead of having an actual game plan to win themselves.
Time spent playing a game shouldn't be a measuring stick for how good it was.
You can have an interesting game AND be done in 10 min. They are not mutually exclusive.
If you see a bad post on the forum use the report function under it, so I or someone else of the moderation team can take care of it!
Any deck that aims at playing solitaire should disappear, everything else will be fine. It's all about the point of view, I guess.
It will be interesting what nerfs they make, whether they let control back in or clear the way for aggro. I know the 2 are generally intertwined but we'll see what they favour the most.
Iksar thinks its more fun, when you opponet draws 11 cards, plays 9 cards and deal 23 damage in a single turn to your face while you sitting there, bored to death, waiting for your turn.
I meant thats what they will probably aim for, considering Iksar's tweets. This doesnt represent my point of view. It all comes down to how much they manage to slow the quest decks down I guess.
Im personally quite bummed by this decision to not support Control as a viable archetype. I only really play control decks, and usually my own creations. I love long, thought out games, where every decision has LASTING impacts. I loathe aggro decks because I find them too easy to win with, and boring as hell to play.
I get no satifaction from 5 turn games, besides doing a last minute legend run or something , where I have 6 hours left in the season, and decide to pick up Secret Paladin, for example. As control games last 20 minutes or more, they arent a good choice for time constraint climbs.
I see the game has crossed a line they will prob never go back from regarding the power level spikes, and the speed of the game. They are obviously marketing the game to younger, shorter attention span people, where every game consists of OP draw, into combo finisers , or str8 aggro decks winning on turn 5 or 6.
The game used to feel more like a legit strategic card game, where your decision mattered and could affect the outcome.
Today though, so many games feel like it doesnt matter what I do. The outcome is inevitable. Thats not a game for 2, thats a 1 sided beat down.
Im not happy Control is gone, and will be slowly playing less and less Hearthstone. Its been over 4 years for me and its been a good run. I just dont enjoy where the game is and is going.
I agree the hour long mirror matches were a bit much, but I would rather do that anyday over a quick game. As a chess player, I value my thought energy, and dont mind investing it into something like a control match. So Infinite creation of resources was the problem with Control Warrior, and same with Priest. So we can tone that aspect down and still have control . But to say drainging your opponent of resources isnt a plan is incorrect. That is the literal plan of Control. To drain you and outlast you into fatigue. Its a matter of preference, and used to be up until now, a legitimate play style.
Hearthstone never had fully viable control decks the same way Magic did. The lack of interaction in your opponent's turn will always favor aggro and combo. This is by design in the core mechanics of the game.
I can't remember a single meta when it felt control truly was the best strategy. There were outliers like Control Warrior pre-Naxx, Big Priest and Togwaggle Druid - but if you pick the metas and top decks across 7 years, it's always aggro, midrange, combo or "beatdown" (like Handlock, Jade and Clown Druid).
What they all have in common is to try to finish the game before turn 8.
The release of Tickatus was an obvious signal but I hoped it was just a “mistake”. Iksar’s statement confirm it was not, and I couldn’t agree less with him.
Someone above stated that he must be complying with order to make HS faster and simpler, but in a way it may finally help me quit if there’s not way to play control anymore. It’s already why I don’t really play standard anymore.
Take a walk on the wild side...
My guess is they just dont want value/fatigue to be control's primary wincon anymore, but that can still win you games against aggro for example, just not against the mirror. Much like how Control Warrior has been for a while with Silas OTK.
They also made clear they are not happy with how fast quest decks are being completed, so their goal is probably something like "if you let the opponent's deck take 12+ turns, you should lose the game". Getting the right amount of turns where both players would be satisfied is the tricky part.
If game length is the issue they could easily reduce the turn timer. This would still favour aggor decks who arguably have fewer decision points than control decks. It would also indirectly nerf discover and OTK/crazy draw as the animations would (presumably) be the same.
To be honest I think this would be a good thing more generally. Even as a predominantly control priest player I feel the turns are too long.