#1. the chess-like, non-rng way (any competitive deck in wild)
and #2. the full blown rng way: created-by, discover & fun Yogg-moments.
The caveat, you ask? deck #1 isn't fun to play against deck #2 (because you either auto-win or get scammed) and playing deck #2 into deck #1 is also not fun because the game usually ends by turn 4 or everything you do gets removed and then you get OTK'd.
and this thread proves it. the solution? 2 modes, 2 ladders. we are getting a new mode every year now but the 2 most important ones are still missing. My guess it'll happen sometime around 2024-2025. can't wait. it's going to be great.
They ARE toning down rng a lot. While i agree they could give certain discover and random gen effects specific cost parameters. (Renew should probably specify 1-4 cost priest spells, but sethekk veilweaver should add 5+ cost spells) this whole idea that you cant generate a card into a card is silly. Or cant generate expensive cards. Thats just bellyaching about a game you were probably losing anyway.
And they are improving the rng. Sethekk veilweaver is losing a lot of his cheaper activators, no more puzzle box, no more mana cyclone, no more whirlkick. Athletic studies is getting worse, primordial, draconic and most of the others are getting better.
As for pools becoming more consistent. Its a good thing. You know better wgat to expect and cards wont just whiff. (And i dont think jandice or wandmaker are gonna be a huge problem)
They ARE toning down rng a lot. While i agree they could give certain discover and random gen effects specific cost parameters. (Renew should probably specify 1-4 cost priest spells, but sethekk veilweaver should add 5+ cost spells) this whole idea that you cant generate a card into a card is silly. Or cant generate expensive cards. Thats just bellyaching about a game you were probably losing anyway.
That kind of BS discover into discover plays have stolen games I would otherwise have won more times than I can count. Doesnt feel like your opponent outplayed you, feels like you just got scammed, hard. Its fine when it happens once in a while, but it happens way too often for comfort imo.
Never said you cant generate expensive cards, only that you should pay more for the chance to discover them, getting high cost stuff from 1-mana discover effects is broken, plain and simple.
I watched that Zeddy video and I'll say here what I said there, I don't think 1-cost spells being good is a problem and I don't think the 5-drop pool being too good is a problem. Cards being strong isn't a problem. If they didn't make a single new 5-drop in The Barrens, but they gave every class a lot of powerful tools, then every class would be equipped to deal with Jandice Barov and its shenanigans simply by being able to output similar power. The way I see it, power creep is fine now that the Core Set is in place, so long as every class is getting powerful cards at the same level as one another. If there are powerful cards to contest powerful cards, then fair's fair. The main topic of the forum being new rules set on cards that randomly generate cards is strange to me. While there is logic to saying that there should be a threshold to discover, where you can't discover something too expensive compared to what you payed to discover, that eliminates a crucial decision point of the game. There's a cost to discovering something really expensive with a cheapo card played on curve; you can't play it yet. The forward planning skills that make those choices meaningful is something important to playing Hearthstone, it's a chance where a player can show some skill, or think critically. I know it feels worse later in the game when somebody cops a great card off of a Wand Thief, but that's just how card games work fundamentally. The cards you draw are random, the cards you create are random too. Them topdecking Thief into Fireball for lethal is fundamentally the same as them just topdecking Eviscerate. Saw somebody talk trash on my boy Resizing Pouch, despite it being a great example of what Discover could be in a positive way, giving you a specific pool of cards to choose from. The card itself serves the purpose of filling out a curve, and it'll always be bad because you'll always be stuck with terrible options lol. And while generating "infinite" value will also always feel bad to experience when it's happening for the other player, there's inherent risk to trying that kind of stuff. It costs mana. If you spend mana on cards and loop for infinite value, you'll end up out of mana without progressing the game. If you're doing it to find answers, the answers you can actually apply in a tight spot become more and more narrow the less mana you have. Renew into Palm Reading into Renew into Thrive in the Shadows is obnoxious and I would hate to watch that happen, but they're still spending tons of mana searching for an answer that they might not get, and might not be able to afford.
tldr; Yes RNG can feel bad, but it does introduce valuable decision points that can benefit skillful play, and cards that Discover from specific pools are probably healthier than ones that are more vague - though this doesn't mean every card that Discovers should have the pool tightened via mana cost.
Them topdecking Thief into Fireball for lethal is fundamentally the same as them just topdecking Eviscerate.
This statement is so absurd, on so many LEVELS, I dont even.. At first I thought you were trolling, but the rest of your post is great so im confused.. You dont srsly believe that slotting burn in your deck is the same as getting burn from a discover effect right? You dont need to be good at math to know the chance of getting burn when you put it in your deck is much much much higher than getting it from a random discover, right?!
There's a cost to discovering something really expensive with a cheapo card played on curve; you can't play it yet. The forward planning skills that make those choices meaningful is something important to playing Hearthstone, it's a chance where a player can show some skill, or think critically.
That is the best part of discover imo, and the reason I like it as a mechanic. And thats exactly what I was thinking when I made my first suggestion, make people pay more to discover high cost stuff so as to force them to always think AHEAD, just like you described. The problem with cheap discover effects giving you high cost stuff is that later in the game they become Hail Mary BS, cuz you can find a high impact answer and play it on the same turn, thats not ok to me, cheap discover effects should not hold such power.
And while generating "infinite" value will also always feel bad to experience when it's happening for the other player, there's inherent risk to trying that kind of stuff. It costs mana. If you spend mana on cards and loop for infinite value, you'll end up out of mana without progressing the game. If you're doing it to find answers, the answers you can actually apply in a tight spot become more and more narrow the less mana you have. Renew into Palm Reading into Renew into Thrive in the Shadows is obnoxious and I would hate to watch that happen, but they're still spending tons of mana searching for an answer that they might not get, and might not be able to afford.
Again, that is what my first suggestion is for, to make sure the player actually pays a fair mana price to discover powerful options. That weakness you mentioned doesnt rly apply when the discover effects are too cheap, they can just play cheap discover after cheap discover and still have enough mana to play the answer they found.
They ARE toning down rng a lot. While i agree they could give certain discover and random gen effects specific cost parameters. (Renew should probably specify 1-4 cost priest spells, but sethekk veilweaver should add 5+ cost spells) this whole idea that you cant generate a card into a card is silly. Or cant generate expensive cards. Thats just bellyaching about a game you were probably losing anyway.
That kind of BS discover into discover plays have stolen games I would otherwise have won more times than I can count. Doesnt feel like your opponent outplayed you, feels like you just got scammed, hard. Its fine when it happens once in a while, but it happens way too often for comfort imo.
Never said you cant generate expensive cards, only that you should pay more for the chance to discover them, getting high cost stuff from 1-mana discover effects is broken, plain and simple.
But generating cards is what... card generation is designed to do. If you lost because they generated a card that won them the game they had an out. And if it took multiple card generation effects, that means they were just sinking mana into cycling cards.
And that's not. Prove it. Generating 1 card for 1 mana is not broken. And generating a 10 cost card isnt worth anymore than generating a 2 cost card. If renew was 2-3 mana for its effect it woukd be awful. Theres nothing wrong with this. Especially when youre generating class cards.
Right now discovering burn in mage or removal in priest is a pretty high chance in standard. Both because theres a lot of it and because theres a lot of randlm generation.
They ARE toning down rng a lot. While i agree they could give certain discover and random gen effects specific cost parameters. (Renew should probably specify 1-4 cost priest spells, but sethekk veilweaver should add 5+ cost spells) this whole idea that you cant generate a card into a card is silly. Or cant generate expensive cards. Thats just bellyaching about a game you were probably losing anyway.
That kind of BS discover into discover plays have stolen games I would otherwise have won more times than I can count. Doesnt feel like your opponent outplayed you, feels like you just got scammed, hard. Its fine when it happens once in a while, but it happens way too often for comfort imo.
Never said you cant generate expensive cards, only that you should pay more for the chance to discover them, getting high cost stuff from 1-mana discover effects is broken, plain and simple.
And as a side point it makes playing on mobile near impossible at times. Rogue in particular can go from 0 cards to a full hand because of their Lackeys that what’s in their hand after their turn is finished is anybody’s guess. Using a 3rd party Deck Tracker is pretty much mandatory.
I watched that Zeddy video and I'll say here what I said there, I don't think 1-cost spells being good is a problem and I don't think the 5-drop pool being too good is a problem. Cards being strong isn't a problem. If they didn't make a single new 5-drop in The Barrens, but they gave every class a lot of powerful tools, then every class would be equipped to deal with Jandice Barov and its shenanigans simply by being able to output similar power. The way I see it, power creep is fine now that the Core Set is in place, so long as every class is getting powerful cards at the same level as one another. If there are powerful cards to contest powerful cards, then fair's fair. The main topic of the forum being new rules set on cards that randomly generate cards is strange to me. While there is logic to saying that there should be a threshold to discover, where you can't discover something too expensive compared to what you payed to discover, that eliminates a crucial decision point of the game. There's a cost to discovering something really expensive with a cheapo card played on curve; you can't play it yet. The forward planning skills that make those choices meaningful is something important to playing Hearthstone, it's a chance where a player can show some skill, or think critically. I know it feels worse later in the game when somebody cops a great card off of a Wand Thief, but that's just how card games work fundamentally. The cards you draw are random, the cards you create are random too. Them topdecking Thief into Fireball for lethal is fundamentally the same as them just topdecking Eviscerate. Saw somebody talk trash on my boy Resizing Pouch, despite it being a great example of what Discover could be in a positive way, giving you a specific pool of cards to choose from. The card itself serves the purpose of filling out a curve, and it'll always be bad because you'll always be stuck with terrible options lol. And while generating "infinite" value will also always feel bad to experience when it's happening for the other player, there's inherent risk to trying that kind of stuff. It costs mana. If you spend mana on cards and loop for infinite value, you'll end up out of mana without progressing the game. If you're doing it to find answers, the answers you can actually apply in a tight spot become more and more narrow the less mana you have. Renew into Palm Reading into Renew into Thrive in the Shadows is obnoxious and I would hate to watch that happen, but they're still spending tons of mana searching for an answer that they might not get, and might not be able to afford.
tldr; Yes RNG can feel bad, but it does introduce valuable decision points that can benefit skillful play, and cards that Discover from specific pools are probably healthier than ones that are more vague - though this doesn't mean every card that Discovers should have the pool tightened via mana cost.
The higher power level of cards leads to the game being more focused on who can play their broken stuff first. It also devalues everything else, limiting the list of viable cards and strategies.
Think about it like this, if the new norm becomes 3/3 1-drops then almost every 1 drop we have currently becomes defunct. Jandice getting better means decks are forced to react, becoming faster themselves. Either way it limits your choices and further splits the card pool into playable and unplayable cards.
I watched that Zeddy video and I'll say here what I said there, I don't think 1-cost spells being good is a problem and I don't think the 5-drop pool being too good is a problem. Cards being strong isn't a problem. If they didn't make a single new 5-drop in The Barrens, but they gave every class a lot of powerful tools, then every class would be equipped to deal with Jandice Barov and its shenanigans simply by being able to output similar power. The way I see it, power creep is fine now that the Core Set is in place, so long as every class is getting powerful cards at the same level as one another. If there are powerful cards to contest powerful cards, then fair's fair. The main topic of the forum being new rules set on cards that randomly generate cards is strange to me. While there is logic to saying that there should be a threshold to discover, where you can't discover something too expensive compared to what you payed to discover, that eliminates a crucial decision point of the game. There's a cost to discovering something really expensive with a cheapo card played on curve; you can't play it yet. The forward planning skills that make those choices meaningful is something important to playing Hearthstone, it's a chance where a player can show some skill, or think critically. I know it feels worse later in the game when somebody cops a great card off of a Wand Thief, but that's just how card games work fundamentally. The cards you draw are random, the cards you create are random too. Them topdecking Thief into Fireball for lethal is fundamentally the same as them just topdecking Eviscerate. Saw somebody talk trash on my boy Resizing Pouch, despite it being a great example of what Discover could be in a positive way, giving you a specific pool of cards to choose from. The card itself serves the purpose of filling out a curve, and it'll always be bad because you'll always be stuck with terrible options lol. And while generating "infinite" value will also always feel bad to experience when it's happening for the other player, there's inherent risk to trying that kind of stuff. It costs mana. If you spend mana on cards and loop for infinite value, you'll end up out of mana without progressing the game. If you're doing it to find answers, the answers you can actually apply in a tight spot become more and more narrow the less mana you have. Renew into Palm Reading into Renew into Thrive in the Shadows is obnoxious and I would hate to watch that happen, but they're still spending tons of mana searching for an answer that they might not get, and might not be able to afford.
tldr; Yes RNG can feel bad, but it does introduce valuable decision points that can benefit skillful play, and cards that Discover from specific pools are probably healthier than ones that are more vague - though this doesn't mean every card that Discovers should have the pool tightened via mana cost.
The higher power level of cards leads to the game being more focused on who can play their broken stuff first. It also devalues everything else, limiting the list of viable cards and strategies.
Think about it like this, if the new norm becomes 3/3 1-drops then almost every 1 drop we have currently becomes defunct. Jandice getting better means decks are forced to react, becoming faster themselves. Either way it limits your choices and further splits the card pool into playable and unplayable cards.
Jandice literally always plays a card that costs 5 (which is what she costs), and then two cards that die to one damage. If those cards are average 5 drops (5/5s) then that's what she's supposed to do. And if she's too good that way, because she can push too much damage, or whatever, I can't actually imagine how she can be too consistently good as a 5 drop legendary that summons random minions, but if she is then they can nerf her to summon 4 drops or something.
They ARE toning down rng a lot. While i agree they could give certain discover and random gen effects specific cost parameters. (Renew should probably specify 1-4 cost priest spells, but sethekk veilweaver should add 5+ cost spells) this whole idea that you cant generate a card into a card is silly. Or cant generate expensive cards. Thats just bellyaching about a game you were probably losing anyway.
That kind of BS discover into discover plays have stolen games I would otherwise have won more times than I can count. Doesnt feel like your opponent outplayed you, feels like you just got scammed, hard. Its fine when it happens once in a while, but it happens way too often for comfort imo.
Never said you cant generate expensive cards, only that you should pay more for the chance to discover them, getting high cost stuff from 1-mana discover effects is broken, plain and simple.
But how did you get to be in that winning position all those times? Did you not discover any cards up to the point? Or were you playing a face aggro deck? In which case, I have zero sympathy, of course there are going to have to be some tools for slower decks to get an out in those games. Otherwise you just walk over your opponent and that's not healthy either. If you've had discover effects take the game away from you after you were in a winning position due to discover effects of your own, then you can't really complain.
From what you're saying, my first assumption would be that you're playing aggro demon hunter.
What exactly are these super big brain, skill required, no rng or discover decks that you seem to be playing?
I watched that Zeddy video and I'll say here what I said there, I don't think 1-cost spells being good is a problem and I don't think the 5-drop pool being too good is a problem. Cards being strong isn't a problem. If they didn't make a single new 5-drop in The Barrens, but they gave every class a lot of powerful tools, then every class would be equipped to deal with Jandice Barov and its shenanigans simply by being able to output similar power. The way I see it, power creep is fine now that the Core Set is in place, so long as every class is getting powerful cards at the same level as one another. If there are powerful cards to contest powerful cards, then fair's fair. The main topic of the forum being new rules set on cards that randomly generate cards is strange to me. While there is logic to saying that there should be a threshold to discover, where you can't discover something too expensive compared to what you payed to discover, that eliminates a crucial decision point of the game. There's a cost to discovering something really expensive with a cheapo card played on curve; you can't play it yet. The forward planning skills that make those choices meaningful is something important to playing Hearthstone, it's a chance where a player can show some skill, or think critically. I know it feels worse later in the game when somebody cops a great card off of a Wand Thief, but that's just how card games work fundamentally. The cards you draw are random, the cards you create are random too. Them topdecking Thief into Fireball for lethal is fundamentally the same as them just topdecking Eviscerate. Saw somebody talk trash on my boy Resizing Pouch, despite it being a great example of what Discover could be in a positive way, giving you a specific pool of cards to choose from. The card itself serves the purpose of filling out a curve, and it'll always be bad because you'll always be stuck with terrible options lol. And while generating "infinite" value will also always feel bad to experience when it's happening for the other player, there's inherent risk to trying that kind of stuff. It costs mana. If you spend mana on cards and loop for infinite value, you'll end up out of mana without progressing the game. If you're doing it to find answers, the answers you can actually apply in a tight spot become more and more narrow the less mana you have. Renew into Palm Reading into Renew into Thrive in the Shadows is obnoxious and I would hate to watch that happen, but they're still spending tons of mana searching for an answer that they might not get, and might not be able to afford.
tldr; Yes RNG can feel bad, but it does introduce valuable decision points that can benefit skillful play, and cards that Discover from specific pools are probably healthier than ones that are more vague - though this doesn't mean every card that Discovers should have the pool tightened via mana cost.
The higher power level of cards leads to the game being more focused on who can play their broken stuff first. It also devalues everything else, limiting the list of viable cards and strategies.
Think about it like this, if the new norm becomes 3/3 1-drops then almost every 1 drop we have currently becomes defunct. Jandice getting better means decks are forced to react, becoming faster themselves. Either way it limits your choices and further splits the card pool into playable and unplayable cards.
Jandice literally always plays a card that costs 5 (which is what she costs), and then two cards that die to one damage. If those cards are average 5 drops (5/5s) then that's what she's supposed to do. And if she's too good that way, because she can push too much damage, or whatever, I can't actually imagine how she can be too consistently good as a 5 drop legendary that summons random minions, but if she is then they can nerf her to summon 4 drops or something.
According to HS Replay she’s the 2nd most run card behind Lightening Bloom, and it looks like her pool of cards will be stronger post rotation.
I’m not specifically talking about just Jandice though, the poster I replied to mentioned that power creep isn’t an issue as long as everybody gets powerful stuff, which I disagree with.
But generating cards is what... card generation is designed to do. If you lost because they generated a card that won them the game they had an out. And if it took multiple card generation effects, that means they were just sinking mana into cycling cards.
And that's not. Prove it. Generating 1 card for 1 mana is not broken. And generating a 10 cost card isnt worth anymore than generating a 2 cost card. If renew was 2-3 mana for its effect it woukd be awful. Theres nothing wrong with this. Especially when youre generating class cards.
Right now discovering burn in mage or removal in priest is a pretty high chance in standard. Both because theres a lot of it and because theres a lot of randlm generation.
Neither will be very high post-rotation.
It is when the cheap discover gives you access to high cost burn/board clears, cuz late game you get to play them as soon as you discover them. It takes away from the good "planning ahead" aspect of discover, theres is zero skill involved in this, and it can completely decide a game by itself and make all decisions made by both players up until that point irrelevant.
If the answer came from "Add Random" it would be fine, like Tome of Intellect, cuz the risk of not getting what you need is much higher, or if it came from a cheap discover effect that requires a deckbuilding cost, such as Zephrys or Arcane Breath, these cards are fine. Wand Thief and Renew require nothing, costs you nothing, and can have a super high impact on the game with no real drawback, that seems pretty unbalanced to me. Magic Trick should be the benchmark for all future discover effects imo.
But how did you get to be in that winning position all those times? Did you not discover any cards up to the point? Or were you playing a face aggro deck? In which case, I have zero sympathy, of course there are going to have to be some tools for slower decks to get an out in those games. Otherwise you just walk over your opponent and that's not healthy either. If you've had discover effects take the game away from you after you were in a winning position due to discover effects of your own, then you can't really complain.
From what you're saying, my first assumption would be that you're playing aggro demon hunter.
What exactly are these super big brain, skill required, no rng or discover decks that you seem to be playing?
Recently? Mostly Enrage Warrior, Guardian Druid (Crystal Power instead of studies for aggro) and Galakrond Warlock. None relies on Discover effects, and are not aggro either. Dont get me wrong, I like Discover, but the way its been used has become super degenerate over the years, going from planning ahead against something you know your opponent will play to "oh shit im losing, lets roll the dice to see if I highroll a big board clear and play it now!".
PS: I realized now that my 2nd suggesttion was unnecessary, my 1st suggestion alone answers both problems: if the player pays more mana for the chance to get high-cost, high-impact cards, then getting scammed by discover into discover BS becomes much harder, almost impossible even. Will update the OP.
@P4DGE not directed at me but to respond to your point...
I hate Wand Thief but I use the card because it’s arguably the best card in the game, I don’t see how that has any bearing on my opinion of the card.
One of the main issues is that the discover cards are so versatile and powerful that you have to play them, otherwise you’re needlessly neutering your own deck.
Wand Thief and Renew require nothing, costs you nothing, and can have a super high impact on the game with no real drawback, that seems pretty unbalanced to me. Magic Trick should be the benchmark for all future discover effects imo.
Wand Thief I can see to an extent, sure (not sure about "best card in the game"). The requirement to combo it is really not significant enough for how powerful the pool of mage spells is. Renew I can't. Renew is such a low impact card, and priest spells in general are very limited (they heal, the buff, they destroy). And I agree both could be limited to a specific cost. But that also has a trade off. One of the things that made Magic Trick powerful was it was always likely to give you three options you could immediately play and still have enough mana left over for mana cyclone. Or as cheap sequences spellburst activators or what have you. Or as a result off of Evocation. I think in most current mage decks, magic trick sees more play than Wand thief really.
I still just don't think the cost of what you get is THAT relevant. As much as you're likely to get something playable in the late game, you're just as likely to get something you maybe don't want. And I think comparing it to random effects isn't really fair because random effects just whiffing is almost as bad as getting something good off of a discover.
And I don't think there's going to even be enough discover cards that line up to even make "discovering into discovering" an issue. There'll be priest stuff, but priest spells are still going to be extremely limited, and as of right now they only have 2 board clears in the new set. One of which is highly situational.
...I also just don't think deckbuilding is that sacrosanct? If someone beat me with a good top deck it feels about as crap as getting beaten by a smart discover.
The biggest issues right now with discover are volume (stuff like Thoughtsteal) and the pool being full of high impact cards (like mage's spell pool). Both of which SHOULD be fixed by the rotation.
@KinkyjohnFowler Which cards are we talking about besides Wand Thief? I really don't think Renew or Palm Reading are as bad as all that. Athletic Studies has a pretty high success rate for getting good cards (but again, that's a card pool issue). Most of the other studies cards are fine.
I really don't think the problem is with Discover effects or even random value generation as a whole. The problem comes from two things: These effects being too strong, and there being too many of them. The latter is obvious: Having too much random generation means more games are going to come down to someone getting the perfect card, and neither party is going to be that happy with it, since the win feels hollow. On the other hand, I really do think Discover in particular has been massively undervalued in recent years. You compare Wand Thief to Babbling Book and the difference is staggering. For the same mana cost you're getting an extra point of Health, and you're getting to Discover the spell instead of having it randomly added to your hand, vastly increasing the power level of whatever you get. Yes, the Combo is harder to activate, but on a 1 mana card that's basically trivial.
The difference is the most stark when you look at the adventure where Discover was introduced, League of Explorers. Gorillabot A-3 was a 4 mana 3/4 with a conditional Discover. Tomb Spider was a 4 mana 3/3 with a Discover. Yes, these are probably the weakest of the original Discover cards (and didn't see play outside of memes), but I think it's really showing of how much better Discover cards have gotten. Jeweled Scarab actually made a few lists back in the day, but nowadays if you want to get value there's no reason to give up on tempo by playing a 2 mana 1/1 anymore. The card looks pathetic not just because of power creep, but because Discover no longer is seen as a premium effect.
That I think is the core of the issue. Discover was designed as a midrange/control mechanic. Discovering things was meant to give you value and flexibility at the cost of a bit of tempo. Nowadays, Discover effects fit in every single sort of deck - aggro Mages fit Magic Trick in, Highlander Hunter runs Mystery Winner and Rinling's Rifle, etc etc - so of course way more games come down to lucky random generation.
It takes away from the good "planning ahead" aspect of discover, theres is zero skill involved in this, and it can completely decide a game by itself and make all decisions made by both players up until that point irrelevant.
It doesn't, because 1) you can get cheap answers from card generation in early game and play them immediately and 2) sometimes playing expensive cards right away is not the best course of play and you can hold on to them. And if a single card can turn the game around by itself, it could have done so regardless of whether or not it was randomly generated, and means the card itself is problematic.
A 9 mana card can (in principle) have 9 mana worth of value. If it's generated by a 1 mana card that has a smaller effect also worth 1 mana, the player has used 10 mana for 10 mana worth of value, and could have accomplished approximately the same thing by including a high value late game card in their deck in the first place. The only case where an exception theoretically should be made is with cards that generate multiple cards, because there should be a cost to having more than 30 cards worth of value in a deck.
02 things: flexibility and deckbuilding cost. Cheap discover effects with high impact card pool options are the perfect swiss army knives, they will never be dead in your hand and will often give you something you can play immediately, most of the time becoming "answer on demand".
High cost cards are much less flexible since you cant play them whenever, so theres a higher deckbuilding cost to adding them to your deck, and might not even be great depending on the matchup (Twisting Nether being mostly dead against Control Warrior, for example)
It takes away from the good "planning ahead" aspect of discover, theres is zero skill involved in this, and it can completely decide a game by itself and make all decisions made by both players up until that point irrelevant.
It doesn't, because 1) you can get cheap answers from card generation in early game and play them immediately and 2) sometimes playing expensive cards right away is not the best course of play and you can hold on to them. And if a single card can turn the game around by itself, it could have done so regardless of whether or not it was randomly generated, and means the card itself is problematic.
A 9 mana card can (in principle) have 9 mana worth of value. If it's generated by a 1 mana card that has a smaller effect also worth 1 mana, the player has used 10 mana for 10 mana worth of value, and could have accomplished approximately the same thing by including a high value late game card in their deck in the first place. The only case where an exception theoretically should be made is with cards that generate multiple cards, because there should be a cost to having more than 30 cards worth of value in a deck.
You took my statement out of context bro. I was referring to turns when the player is losing, plays a cheap discover and finds a high-cost, high impact answer, plays it on the same turn it was discovered and turns the game around, or straight up wins the game on the spot. Doesnt even need to be a topdeck.
I know you've seen this kind of BS situation many times before, everybody has, thats the kind of thing my suggestions are meant to prevent. Discover is a great mechanic, just not when used like this.
You took my statement out of context bro. I was referring to turns when the player is losing, plays a cheap discover and finds a high-cost, high impact answer, plays it on the same turn it was discovered and turns the game around, or straight up wins the game on the spot. Doesnt even need to be a topdeck.
That's not bullshit. That's playing a card that gives him more cards and finding an answer. This is what I don't understand.
You took my statement out of context bro. I was referring to turns when the player is losing, plays a cheap discover and finds a high-cost, high impact answer, plays it on the same turn it was discovered and turns the game around, or straight up wins the game on the spot. Doesnt even need to be a topdeck.
That's not bullshit. That's playing a card that gives him more cards and finding an answer. This is what I don't understand.
Discover's bad if it helps you win?
Its not bad if it was something you discovered in a previous turn, cuz it means you predicted what your opponent was going to do. In cases like this, Discover is great for the game, it promotes skillful gameplay.
Discovering a high cost high impact card from a cheap discover and playing on the same turn is just pure dumb luck, literally a coin flip to decide who wins the game. You srsly dont see any problem with that? Dont you think letting a 1-mana card decide the outcome of an entire match is bad at all?
Powerful effects should require greater costs. Nothing with the potential to decide a match should cost so little, ever. My suggestion deals with this, if you wanna discover stuff that can easily turn the tides of a match, pay more for it, seems fair no?
this thread is wonderful.
there are exactly 2 ways to play Hearthstone:
#1. the chess-like, non-rng way (any competitive deck in wild)
and #2. the full blown rng way: created-by, discover & fun Yogg-moments.
The caveat, you ask? deck #1 isn't fun to play against deck #2 (because you either auto-win or get scammed) and playing deck #2 into deck #1 is also not fun because the game usually ends by turn 4 or everything you do gets removed and then you get OTK'd.
and this thread proves it. the solution? 2 modes, 2 ladders. we are getting a new mode every year now but the 2 most important ones are still missing. My guess it'll happen sometime around 2024-2025. can't wait. it's going to be great.
They ARE toning down rng a lot. While i agree they could give certain discover and random gen effects specific cost parameters. (Renew should probably specify 1-4 cost priest spells, but sethekk veilweaver should add 5+ cost spells) this whole idea that you cant generate a card into a card is silly. Or cant generate expensive cards. Thats just bellyaching about a game you were probably losing anyway.
And they are improving the rng. Sethekk veilweaver is losing a lot of his cheaper activators, no more puzzle box, no more mana cyclone, no more whirlkick. Athletic studies is getting worse, primordial, draconic and most of the others are getting better.
As for pools becoming more consistent. Its a good thing. You know better wgat to expect and cards wont just whiff. (And i dont think jandice or wandmaker are gonna be a huge problem)
That kind of BS discover into discover plays have stolen games I would otherwise have won more times than I can count. Doesnt feel like your opponent outplayed you, feels like you just got scammed, hard. Its fine when it happens once in a while, but it happens way too often for comfort imo.
Never said you cant generate expensive cards, only that you should pay more for the chance to discover them, getting high cost stuff from 1-mana discover effects is broken, plain and simple.
I watched that Zeddy video and I'll say here what I said there, I don't think 1-cost spells being good is a problem and I don't think the 5-drop pool being too good is a problem. Cards being strong isn't a problem. If they didn't make a single new 5-drop in The Barrens, but they gave every class a lot of powerful tools, then every class would be equipped to deal with Jandice Barov and its shenanigans simply by being able to output similar power.
The way I see it, power creep is fine now that the Core Set is in place, so long as every class is getting powerful cards at the same level as one another. If there are powerful cards to contest powerful cards, then fair's fair.
The main topic of the forum being new rules set on cards that randomly generate cards is strange to me. While there is logic to saying that there should be a threshold to discover, where you can't discover something too expensive compared to what you payed to discover, that eliminates a crucial decision point of the game. There's a cost to discovering something really expensive with a cheapo card played on curve; you can't play it yet. The forward planning skills that make those choices meaningful is something important to playing Hearthstone, it's a chance where a player can show some skill, or think critically. I know it feels worse later in the game when somebody cops a great card off of a Wand Thief, but that's just how card games work fundamentally. The cards you draw are random, the cards you create are random too. Them topdecking Thief into Fireball for lethal is fundamentally the same as them just topdecking Eviscerate. Saw somebody talk trash on my boy Resizing Pouch, despite it being a great example of what Discover could be in a positive way, giving you a specific pool of cards to choose from. The card itself serves the purpose of filling out a curve, and it'll always be bad because you'll always be stuck with terrible options lol.
And while generating "infinite" value will also always feel bad to experience when it's happening for the other player, there's inherent risk to trying that kind of stuff. It costs mana. If you spend mana on cards and loop for infinite value, you'll end up out of mana without progressing the game. If you're doing it to find answers, the answers you can actually apply in a tight spot become more and more narrow the less mana you have. Renew into Palm Reading into Renew into Thrive in the Shadows is obnoxious and I would hate to watch that happen, but they're still spending tons of mana searching for an answer that they might not get, and might not be able to afford.
tldr; Yes RNG can feel bad, but it does introduce valuable decision points that can benefit skillful play, and cards that Discover from specific pools are probably healthier than ones that are more vague - though this doesn't mean every card that Discovers should have the pool tightened via mana cost.
please don't bully my son
This statement is so absurd, on so many LEVELS, I dont even.. At first I thought you were trolling, but the rest of your post is great so im confused.. You dont srsly believe that slotting burn in your deck is the same as getting burn from a discover effect right? You dont need to be good at math to know the chance of getting burn when you put it in your deck is much much much higher than getting it from a random discover, right?!
That is the best part of discover imo, and the reason I like it as a mechanic. And thats exactly what I was thinking when I made my first suggestion, make people pay more to discover high cost stuff so as to force them to always think AHEAD, just like you described. The problem with cheap discover effects giving you high cost stuff is that later in the game they become Hail Mary BS, cuz you can find a high impact answer and play it on the same turn, thats not ok to me, cheap discover effects should not hold such power.
Again, that is what my first suggestion is for, to make sure the player actually pays a fair mana price to discover powerful options. That weakness you mentioned doesnt rly apply when the discover effects are too cheap, they can just play cheap discover after cheap discover and still have enough mana to play the answer they found.
But generating cards is what... card generation is designed to do. If you lost because they generated a card that won them the game they had an out. And if it took multiple card generation effects, that means they were just sinking mana into cycling cards.
And that's not. Prove it. Generating 1 card for 1 mana is not broken. And generating a 10 cost card isnt worth anymore than generating a 2 cost card. If renew was 2-3 mana for its effect it woukd be awful. Theres nothing wrong with this. Especially when youre generating class cards.
Right now discovering burn in mage or removal in priest is a pretty high chance in standard. Both because theres a lot of it and because theres a lot of randlm generation.
Neither will be very high post-rotation.
And as a side point it makes playing on mobile near impossible at times. Rogue in particular can go from 0 cards to a full hand because of their Lackeys that what’s in their hand after their turn is finished is anybody’s guess. Using a 3rd party Deck Tracker is pretty much mandatory.
The higher power level of cards leads to the game being more focused on who can play their broken stuff first. It also devalues everything else, limiting the list of viable cards and strategies.
Think about it like this, if the new norm becomes 3/3 1-drops then almost every 1 drop we have currently becomes defunct. Jandice getting better means decks are forced to react, becoming faster themselves. Either way it limits your choices and further splits the card pool into playable and unplayable cards.
While modern Hearthstone overuses it, I think that random generation gives the necessary variety to the gameplay.
I can't play constructed on MTG Arena exactly because it lacks discover-like mechanics. Constructed games are too same and get old real fast.
Jandice literally always plays a card that costs 5 (which is what she costs), and then two cards that die to one damage. If those cards are average 5 drops (5/5s) then that's what she's supposed to do. And if she's too good that way, because she can push too much damage, or whatever, I can't actually imagine how she can be too consistently good as a 5 drop legendary that summons random minions, but if she is then they can nerf her to summon 4 drops or something.
But how did you get to be in that winning position all those times? Did you not discover any cards up to the point? Or were you playing a face aggro deck? In which case, I have zero sympathy, of course there are going to have to be some tools for slower decks to get an out in those games. Otherwise you just walk over your opponent and that's not healthy either. If you've had discover effects take the game away from you after you were in a winning position due to discover effects of your own, then you can't really complain.
From what you're saying, my first assumption would be that you're playing aggro demon hunter.
What exactly are these super big brain, skill required, no rng or discover decks that you seem to be playing?
According to HS Replay she’s the 2nd most run card behind Lightening Bloom, and it looks like her pool of cards will be stronger post rotation.
I’m not specifically talking about just Jandice though, the poster I replied to mentioned that power creep isn’t an issue as long as everybody gets powerful stuff, which I disagree with.
It is when the cheap discover gives you access to high cost burn/board clears, cuz late game you get to play them as soon as you discover them. It takes away from the good "planning ahead" aspect of discover, theres is zero skill involved in this, and it can completely decide a game by itself and make all decisions made by both players up until that point irrelevant.
If the answer came from "Add Random" it would be fine, like Tome of Intellect, cuz the risk of not getting what you need is much higher, or if it came from a cheap discover effect that requires a deckbuilding cost, such as Zephrys or Arcane Breath, these cards are fine. Wand Thief and Renew require nothing, costs you nothing, and can have a super high impact on the game with no real drawback, that seems pretty unbalanced to me. Magic Trick should be the benchmark for all future discover effects imo.
Recently? Mostly Enrage Warrior, Guardian Druid (Crystal Power instead of studies for aggro) and Galakrond Warlock. None relies on Discover effects, and are not aggro either. Dont get me wrong, I like Discover, but the way its been used has become super degenerate over the years, going from planning ahead against something you know your opponent will play to "oh shit im losing, lets roll the dice to see if I highroll a big board clear and play it now!".
PS: I realized now that my 2nd suggesttion was unnecessary, my 1st suggestion alone answers both problems: if the player pays more mana for the chance to get high-cost, high-impact cards, then getting scammed by discover into discover BS becomes much harder, almost impossible even. Will update the OP.
@P4DGE not directed at me but to respond to your point...
I hate Wand Thief but I use the card because it’s arguably the best card in the game, I don’t see how that has any bearing on my opinion of the card.
One of the main issues is that the discover cards are so versatile and powerful that you have to play them, otherwise you’re needlessly neutering your own deck.
Wand Thief I can see to an extent, sure (not sure about "best card in the game"). The requirement to combo it is really not significant enough for how powerful the pool of mage spells is. Renew I can't. Renew is such a low impact card, and priest spells in general are very limited (they heal, the buff, they destroy). And I agree both could be limited to a specific cost. But that also has a trade off. One of the things that made Magic Trick powerful was it was always likely to give you three options you could immediately play and still have enough mana left over for mana cyclone. Or as cheap sequences spellburst activators or what have you. Or as a result off of Evocation. I think in most current mage decks, magic trick sees more play than Wand thief really.
I still just don't think the cost of what you get is THAT relevant. As much as you're likely to get something playable in the late game, you're just as likely to get something you maybe don't want. And I think comparing it to random effects isn't really fair because random effects just whiffing is almost as bad as getting something good off of a discover.
And I don't think there's going to even be enough discover cards that line up to even make "discovering into discovering" an issue. There'll be priest stuff, but priest spells are still going to be extremely limited, and as of right now they only have 2 board clears in the new set. One of which is highly situational.
...I also just don't think deckbuilding is that sacrosanct? If someone beat me with a good top deck it feels about as crap as getting beaten by a smart discover.
The biggest issues right now with discover are volume (stuff like Thoughtsteal) and the pool being full of high impact cards (like mage's spell pool). Both of which SHOULD be fixed by the rotation.
@KinkyjohnFowler Which cards are we talking about besides Wand Thief? I really don't think Renew or Palm Reading are as bad as all that. Athletic Studies has a pretty high success rate for getting good cards (but again, that's a card pool issue). Most of the other studies cards are fine.
I really don't think the problem is with Discover effects or even random value generation as a whole. The problem comes from two things: These effects being too strong, and there being too many of them. The latter is obvious: Having too much random generation means more games are going to come down to someone getting the perfect card, and neither party is going to be that happy with it, since the win feels hollow. On the other hand, I really do think Discover in particular has been massively undervalued in recent years. You compare Wand Thief to Babbling Book and the difference is staggering. For the same mana cost you're getting an extra point of Health, and you're getting to Discover the spell instead of having it randomly added to your hand, vastly increasing the power level of whatever you get. Yes, the Combo is harder to activate, but on a 1 mana card that's basically trivial.
The difference is the most stark when you look at the adventure where Discover was introduced, League of Explorers. Gorillabot A-3 was a 4 mana 3/4 with a conditional Discover. Tomb Spider was a 4 mana 3/3 with a Discover. Yes, these are probably the weakest of the original Discover cards (and didn't see play outside of memes), but I think it's really showing of how much better Discover cards have gotten. Jeweled Scarab actually made a few lists back in the day, but nowadays if you want to get value there's no reason to give up on tempo by playing a 2 mana 1/1 anymore. The card looks pathetic not just because of power creep, but because Discover no longer is seen as a premium effect.
That I think is the core of the issue. Discover was designed as a midrange/control mechanic. Discovering things was meant to give you value and flexibility at the cost of a bit of tempo. Nowadays, Discover effects fit in every single sort of deck - aggro Mages fit Magic Trick in, Highlander Hunter runs Mystery Winner and Rinling's Rifle, etc etc - so of course way more games come down to lucky random generation.
You get to play any cards as soon as you have the mana necessary to do so. Why doesn't this make high cost cards problematic in general then?
It doesn't, because 1) you can get cheap answers from card generation in early game and play them immediately and 2) sometimes playing expensive cards right away is not the best course of play and you can hold on to them. And if a single card can turn the game around by itself, it could have done so regardless of whether or not it was randomly generated, and means the card itself is problematic.
A 9 mana card can (in principle) have 9 mana worth of value. If it's generated by a 1 mana card that has a smaller effect also worth 1 mana, the player has used 10 mana for 10 mana worth of value, and could have accomplished approximately the same thing by including a high value late game card in their deck in the first place. The only case where an exception theoretically should be made is with cards that generate multiple cards, because there should be a cost to having more than 30 cards worth of value in a deck.
02 things: flexibility and deckbuilding cost. Cheap discover effects with high impact card pool options are the perfect swiss army knives, they will never be dead in your hand and will often give you something you can play immediately, most of the time becoming "answer on demand".
High cost cards are much less flexible since you cant play them whenever, so theres a higher deckbuilding cost to adding them to your deck, and might not even be great depending on the matchup (Twisting Nether being mostly dead against Control Warrior, for example)
You took my statement out of context bro. I was referring to turns when the player is losing, plays a cheap discover and finds a high-cost, high impact answer, plays it on the same turn it was discovered and turns the game around, or straight up wins the game on the spot. Doesnt even need to be a topdeck.
I know you've seen this kind of BS situation many times before, everybody has, thats the kind of thing my suggestions are meant to prevent. Discover is a great mechanic, just not when used like this.
That's not bullshit. That's playing a card that gives him more cards and finding an answer. This is what I don't understand.
Discover's bad if it helps you win?
Its not bad if it was something you discovered in a previous turn, cuz it means you predicted what your opponent was going to do. In cases like this, Discover is great for the game, it promotes skillful gameplay.
Discovering a high cost high impact card from a cheap discover and playing on the same turn is just pure dumb luck, literally a coin flip to decide who wins the game. You srsly dont see any problem with that? Dont you think letting a 1-mana card decide the outcome of an entire match is bad at all?
Powerful effects should require greater costs. Nothing with the potential to decide a match should cost so little, ever. My suggestion deals with this, if you wanna discover stuff that can easily turn the tides of a match, pay more for it, seems fair no?