1 mana is equivalent to 2/2 of stats, as per the vanilla 1 mana minion with 2/2.
Therefore lowering a minion's cost by 1 mana, along with it's stats by 2/2 is in fact neither a buff nor a nerf. As such, Blizzard usually only offers dust refunds for cards that have been nerfed (and not those changed for no value difference or buffed). This is a precedent that has been set in the past and there's no reason to see any difference here.
Wtf. What game are you playing. A decent minion will have 2x its cost in stats. Thus 1 mana would represent 1/1, 0/2, 2/0. Things with over 2x are overstated like braindead blazing battlemage. Dumb garbage like this isnt a standard.
1 mana is equivalent to 2/2 of stats, as per the vanilla 1 mana minion with 2/2.
Therefore lowering a minion's cost by 1 mana, along with it's stats by 2/2 is in fact neither a buff nor a nerf. As such, Blizzard usually only offers dust refunds for cards that have been nerfed (and not those changed for no value difference or buffed). This is a precedent that has been set in the past and there's no reason to see any difference here.
Wtf. What game are you playing. A decent minion will have 2x its cost in stats. Thus 1 mana would represent 1/1, 0/2, 2/0. Things with over 2x are overstated like braindead blazing battlemage. Dumb garbage like this isnt a standard.
Blazing Battlemage Standard vanilla neutral card. 1 mana with 2/2 stats. Just because you don't like it, doesn't change what it is. You're welcome. A 1 mana 2/2 is hardly "overstatted"! Lol
1 mana is equivalent to 2/2 of stats, as per the vanilla 1 mana minion with 2/2.
Therefore lowering a minion's cost by 1 mana, along with it's stats by 2/2 is in fact neither a buff nor a nerf. As such, Blizzard usually only offers dust refunds for cards that have been nerfed (and not those changed for no value difference or buffed). This is a precedent that has been set in the past and there's no reason to see any difference here.
Wtf. What game are you playing. A decent minion will have 2x its cost in stats. Thus 1 mana would represent 1/1, 0/2, 2/0. Things with over 2x are overstated like braindead blazing battlemage. Dumb garbage like this isnt a standard.
Blazing Battlemage Standard vanilla neutral card. 1 mana with 2/2 stats. Just because you don't like it, doesn't change what it is. You're welcome. A 1 mana 2/2 is hardly "overstatted"! Lol
Then give me an example of 2 mana vanilla 4/4 or 3 mana 6/6 please.
I totally get that this is a buff rather than a nerf, but the card will most probably still be unplayable as turn 8 is also quite late. Remember what Druids can do before that with some good ramp.
I still think this was a cheap move from Blizzard. Twin Slice also got a rework, but you did get the full refund.
If there is even a possiblity that some player consider a change a nerf, I think a refund should be given. The game is very expensive now, with more legendaries required to build metadecks every year.
1 mana is equivalent to 2/2 of stats, as per the vanilla 1 mana minion with 2/2.
Therefore lowering a minion's cost by 1 mana, along with it's stats by 2/2 is in fact neither a buff nor a nerf. As such, Blizzard usually only offers dust refunds for cards that have been nerfed (and not those changed for no value difference or buffed). This is a precedent that has been set in the past and there's no reason to see any difference here.
Wtf. What game are you playing. A decent minion will have 2x its cost in stats. Thus 1 mana would represent 1/1, 0/2, 2/0. Things with over 2x are overstated like braindead blazing battlemage. Dumb garbage like this isnt a standard.
Blazing Battlemage Standard vanilla neutral card. 1 mana with 2/2 stats. Just because you don't like it, doesn't change what it is. You're welcome. A 1 mana 2/2 is hardly "overstatted"! Lol
Then give me an example of 2 mana vanilla 4/4 or 3 mana 6/6 please.
They gave her Oakheart stats, but she costs 1 mana less. The only issue with Willow is card pool. Once the cardpool is Willow friendly, she will also be as good as Oakheart was.
1 mana is equivalent to 2/2 of stats, as per the vanilla 1 mana minion with 2/2.
Therefore lowering a minion's cost by 1 mana, along with it's stats by 2/2 is in fact neither a buff nor a nerf. As such, Blizzard usually only offers dust refunds for cards that have been nerfed (and not those changed for no value difference or buffed). This is a precedent that has been set in the past and there's no reason to see any difference here.
Wtf. What game are you playing. A decent minion will have 2x its cost in stats. Thus 1 mana would represent 1/1, 0/2, 2/0. Things with over 2x are overstated like braindead blazing battlemage. Dumb garbage like this isnt a standard.
Blazing Battlemage Standard vanilla neutral card. 1 mana with 2/2 stats. Just because you don't like it, doesn't change what it is. You're welcome. A 1 mana 2/2 is hardly "overstatted"! Lol
Then give me an example of 2 mana vanilla 4/4 or 3 mana 6/6 please.
This isn't really funny, you know? If what you say was true, there would be a 2 mana vanilla 4/4. But this is not the case, since cost of stats goes up with the overall cost of the card. We can discuss like this once there is a 10 mana 20/20, then I will be happy to admit that 2/2 is worth 1 mana. For now - you are wrong.
Now before I get put into this pointless discussion - I by no means think this is a nerf. But I don't agree specifically with you and this argument you are trying to use.
I totally get that this is a buff rather than a nerf, but the card will most probably still be unplayable as turn 8 is also quite late. Remember what Druids can do before that with some good ramp.
I still think this was a cheap move from Blizzard. Twin Slice also got a rework, but you did get the full refund.
If there is even a possiblity that some player consider a change a nerf, I think a refund should be given. The game is very expensive now, with more legendaries required to build metadecks every year.
TwinSlice wasnt a legendary.
No one gives a shit.
Bottom line on this card in particular.
In Standard: So few decent big demons, it's kind of memey. They are a lot more ways to do 5 dmg to a minion than 7+ and trading in 5 attack late game isnt that great. People acting like playing 3 minions in one turn is almighty are super adorable.
Pharos decks are gonna get more value out of playing a late game 5/5.
In Wild: If you crafted her for odd sheningans, it makes total since you would want your dust back. Doesnt look too bad in even though.
Nzoth/BR Guldan far superior and Nzoth is a 5/7
I sincerely dont understand how this topic is 4 pages.
This isn't really funny, you know? If what you say was true, there would be a 2 mana vanilla 4/4. But this is not the case, since cost of stats goes up with the overall cost of the card. We can discuss like this once there is a 10 mana 20/20, then I will be happy to admit that 2/2 is worth 1 mana. For now - you are wrong.
Now before I get put into this pointless discussion - I by no means think this is a nerf. But I don't agree specifically with you and this argument you are trying to use.
The point of my reply was to highlight the fact that you are trying to administer an incorrect assumption and example in order to challenge a point you disagree with. This is a strawman argument. It doesn't work that way. And either you know this and are being deliberately intellectually disingenuous or you don't, in which case it's a good learning point. Either way, the point I made is correct in relation to the basis of base mana values mapping to stats. What you don't seem to be realising is that it simply doesn't mean you can just apply the same rule over and over because stats have a different impact as they get higher, so of course you don't get a vanilla 3 mana 6/6 minion, because it doesn't work that way. Stats don't accumulate in a linear progression, because if that was the case, then the power creep would be immense. But they can be applied systematically and singularly based on a prior set of balanced stats.
1 mana is equivalent to 2/2 of stats, as per the vanilla 1 mana minion with 2/2.
Therefore lowering a minion's cost by 1 mana, along with it's stats by 2/2 is in fact neither a buff nor a nerf. As such, Blizzard usually only offers dust refunds for cards that have been nerfed (and not those changed for no value difference or buffed). This is a precedent that has been set in the past and there's no reason to see any difference here.
Wtf. What game are you playing. A decent minion will have 2x its cost in stats. Thus 1 mana would represent 1/1, 0/2, 2/0. Things with over 2x are overstated like braindead blazing battlemage. Dumb garbage like this isnt a standard.
Blazing Battlemage Standard vanilla neutral card. 1 mana with 2/2 stats. Just because you don't like it, doesn't change what it is. You're welcome. A 1 mana 2/2 is hardly "overstatted"! Lol
Then give me an example of 2 mana vanilla 4/4 or 3 mana 6/6 please.
This isn't really funny, you know? If what you say was true, there would be a 2 mana vanilla 4/4. But this is not the case, since cost of stats goes up with the overall cost of the card. We can discuss like this once there is a 10 mana 20/20, then I will be happy to admit that 2/2 is worth 1 mana. For now - you are wrong.
Now before I get put into this pointless discussion - I by no means think this is a nerf. But I don't agree specifically with you and this argument you are trying to use.
Millhouse...o wait, that's a legendary with a huge drawback
Van Cleef..legendary and combo..
Well shaman has almost has a 4 cost 8/8..(7/7)...oh wait that has 2 overload so thats definitely not a standard either.
Well, theres another cardthats 1 mana and 2/2...o wait..no there isnt. (in wild there is the 2/2 Dr heal both 4)
This isn't really funny, you know? If what you say was true, there would be a 2 mana vanilla 4/4. But this is not the case, since cost of stats goes up with the overall cost of the card. We can discuss like this once there is a 10 mana 20/20, then I will be happy to admit that 2/2 is worth 1 mana. For now - you are wrong.
Now before I get put into this pointless discussion - I by no means think this is a nerf. But I don't agree specifically with you and this argument you are trying to use.
What you don't seem to be realising is that it simply doesn't mean you can just apply the same rule over and over because stats have a different impact as they get higher, so of course you don't get a vanilla 3 mana 6/6 minion, because it doesn't work that way. Stats don't accumulate in a linear progression, because if that was the case, then the power creep would be immense. But they can be applied systematically and singularly based on a prior set of balanced stats.
So if you basically repeated, what I said, why do you use an argument that doesn't make sense and what you are actually arguing with? You said that 2/2 is worth 1 mana, because Blazing Battlemage exists. When I pointed out that this is a bs, because this applies only to a 1 mana minion, you firstly responded with literally nothing and now you agreed with me? So where's your point?
In case you didn't notice it's a 8/9 mana card we are talking about here, so if you agree with me that 1 mana logic doesn't apply to higher cost minions, then once again I am lost, what you were actually trying to say by bringing up Blazing Battlemage and then countering your own argument.
This isn't really funny, you know? If what you say was true, there would be a 2 mana vanilla 4/4. But this is not the case, since cost of stats goes up with the overall cost of the card. We can discuss like this once there is a 10 mana 20/20, then I will be happy to admit that 2/2 is worth 1 mana. For now - you are wrong.
Now before I get put into this pointless discussion - I by no means think this is a nerf. But I don't agree specifically with you and this argument you are trying to use.
What you don't seem to be realising is that it simply doesn't mean you can just apply the same rule over and over because stats have a different impact as they get higher, so of course you don't get a vanilla 3 mana 6/6 minion, because it doesn't work that way. Stats don't accumulate in a linear progression, because if that was the case, then the power creep would be immense. But they can be applied systematically and singularly based on a prior set of balanced stats.
So if you basically repeated, what I said, why do you use an argument that doesn't make sense and what you are actually arguing with? You said that 2/2 is worth 1 mana, because Blazing Battlemage exists. When I pointed out that this is a bs, because this applies only to a 1 mana minion, you firstly responded with literally nothing and now you agreed with me? So where's your point?
In case you didn't notice it's a 8/9 mana card we are talking about here, so if you agree with me that 1 mana logic doesn't apply to higher cost minions, then once again I am lost, what you were actually trying to say by bringing up Blazing Battlemage and then countering your own argument.
Uh - it's not me that was arguing - you're the one who disagreed with the fact I provided. You demanded evidence of something (which I was actually able to legitimately provide, even though it wasnt relevant). But like you said in your previous comment, however, it's a pointless discussion. To that end, I'm happy to say : "Ok, sure." and get back to other things.
This isn't really funny, you know? If what you say was true, there would be a 2 mana vanilla 4/4. But this is not the case, since cost of stats goes up with the overall cost of the card. We can discuss like this once there is a 10 mana 20/20, then I will be happy to admit that 2/2 is worth 1 mana. For now - you are wrong.
Now before I get put into this pointless discussion - I by no means think this is a nerf. But I don't agree specifically with you and this argument you are trying to use.
What you don't seem to be realising is that it simply doesn't mean you can just apply the same rule over and over because stats have a different impact as they get higher, so of course you don't get a vanilla 3 mana 6/6 minion, because it doesn't work that way. Stats don't accumulate in a linear progression, because if that was the case, then the power creep would be immense. But they can be applied systematically and singularly based on a prior set of balanced stats.
So if you basically repeated, what I said, why do you use an argument that doesn't make sense and what you are actually arguing with? You said that 2/2 is worth 1 mana, because Blazing Battlemage exists. When I pointed out that this is a bs, because this applies only to a 1 mana minion, you firstly responded with literally nothing and now you agreed with me? So where's your point?
In case you didn't notice it's a 8/9 mana card we are talking about here, so if you agree with me that 1 mana logic doesn't apply to higher cost minions, then once again I am lost, what you were actually trying to say by bringing up Blazing Battlemage and then countering your own argument.
Uh - it's not me that was arguing - you're the one who disagreed with the fact I provided. You demanded evidence of something (which I was actually able to legitimately provide, even though it wasnt relevant). But like you said in your previous comment, however, it's a pointless discussion. To that end, I'm happy to say : "Ok, sure." and get back to other things.
"1 mana is equivalent to 2/2 of stats, as per the vanilla 1 mana minion with 2/2." - these are your words.
You are wrong, so wrong, yet you use statements like "learning point" for me and act as if you were right, but said "ok, I have no time to argue".
You clearly stated an idiocy, in the end even agreeing with the arguments, which showed you stated an idiocy (what makes it even more funny) and try to put it all upside down by neglectful statements as if you never said, what I claim you did. But your idiocy, which I just quoted, is up there - a few posts before for everyone to see.
"1 mana is equivalent to 2/2 of stats, as per the vanilla 1 mana minion with 2/2." - these are your words.
You are wrong, so wrong, yet you use statements like "learning point" for me and act as if you were right, but said "ok, I have no time to argue".
You clearly stated an idiocy, in the end even agreeing with the arguments, which showed you stated an idiocy (what makes it even more funny) and try to put it all upside down by neglectful statements as if you never said, what I claim you did. But your idiocy, which I just quoted, is up there - a few posts before for everyone to see.
9 times out of 10, when I played this before, I got a 7/7, and 2x 5/7 with taunt, and deathrattle summon a 5/5 with lifesteal.
That is 27/31 with taunt, and lifesteal over 5 minions.
The cost was reduced by 11%
2/2 of stats is significantly less than 11% of 27/31 with taunt and lifesteal.
I made a Quest Big Demon Warlock, and I've had people add me after and ask for my deck list, because it's a powerful and interesting deck.
The patch made my deck better.
As I said before, I got a golden version of Archwitch Willow with my bundle... I would be thrilled to get a pile of free dust. However, how can I expect one when they made a big card in my favourite deck more powerful. That would be ridiculous.
What this really comes down to is, "I have a card that I don't know how to use, or don't want, and Blizzard changed it, so I deserve refund."
Refunds are for people who crafted a card to make a certain deck. When they nerf said card, Blizzard offers a refund, because there's a good chance the people wouldn't have crafted said card with it's post nerf stats.
This situation is not that. If you crafted Archwitch Willow. You should be happy with this change. If you opened her in a pack, and just don't like her. Then the nerf policy isn't for you regardless. I have lots of legendaries I'll never use. That's life.
Little annoying you used best possible standard result as example.
If youre playing Willow with only 2 demons in your deck, its absolute trash.
Sorry, you're right.. you could pull the 4/6 Taunt/Heal card, however you're running lots of draw, 2 cards that reshuffle your hand, and she pulls 1 from deck, and 1 from hand... I have a great winrate with the deck and probably at least 85% of the time, I get the pull I want... It doesn't take much forethought to organize it, but yes, there is the odd time where you'll have both of the 9 cost demons in hand before you've played the 6 cost demons and after you've played both shuffle cards.
edit: I actually recently added the 4/5 Taunt demons that get +3/+3 with Soul Fragment, so I guess that's the worst pull, but like I said, 85% premium pull if you plan ahead.
Personally only willow deck ive played had siege breakers in it, but above is your possible results. Less than 50/50 chance to have dreadlord without even considering hand and whats left in deck.
like bli$$ will ever give us more than the middle finger :/
Wtf. What game are you playing. A decent minion will have 2x its cost in stats. Thus 1 mana would represent 1/1, 0/2, 2/0. Things with over 2x are overstated like braindead blazing battlemage. Dumb garbage like this isnt a standard.
Fun > Meta
Blazing Battlemage
Standard vanilla neutral card.
1 mana with 2/2 stats.
Just because you don't like it, doesn't change what it is.
You're welcome. A 1 mana 2/2 is hardly "overstatted"! Lol
Then give me an example of 2 mana vanilla 4/4 or 3 mana 6/6 please.
I totally get that this is a buff rather than a nerf, but the card will most probably still be unplayable as turn 8 is also quite late. Remember what Druids can do before that with some good ramp.
I still think this was a cheap move from Blizzard. Twin Slice also got a rework, but you did get the full refund.
If there is even a possiblity that some player consider a change a nerf, I think a refund should be given. The game is very expensive now, with more legendaries required to build metadecks every year.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
Nice strawman! XD
But if you insist:
Play Blazing Battlemage, followed by Blazing Battlemage.
A straight forward example of 2 mana vanilla with 4/4 stats.
Simple.
I don't know why this is so hard for some people.
They gave her Oakheart stats, but she costs 1 mana less.
The only issue with Willow is card pool.
Once the cardpool is Willow friendly, she will also be as good as Oakheart was.
Internet is such a great place. You point out an error and some people will doubledown on stupidity.
Fun > Meta
This isn't really funny, you know? If what you say was true, there would be a 2 mana vanilla 4/4. But this is not the case, since cost of stats goes up with the overall cost of the card. We can discuss like this once there is a 10 mana 20/20, then I will be happy to admit that 2/2 is worth 1 mana. For now - you are wrong.
Now before I get put into this pointless discussion - I by no means think this is a nerf. But I don't agree specifically with you and this argument you are trying to use.
TwinSlice wasnt a legendary.
No one gives a shit.
Bottom line on this card in particular.
In Standard: So few decent big demons, it's kind of memey. They are a lot more ways to do 5 dmg to a minion than 7+ and trading in 5 attack late game isnt that great. People acting like playing 3 minions in one turn is almighty are super adorable.
Pharos decks are gonna get more value out of playing a late game 5/5.
In Wild: If you crafted her for odd sheningans, it makes total since you would want your dust back. Doesnt look too bad in even though.
Nzoth/BR Guldan far superior and Nzoth is a 5/7
I sincerely dont understand how this topic is 4 pages.
Fun > Meta
The point of my reply was to highlight the fact that you are trying to administer an incorrect assumption and example in order to challenge a point you disagree with. This is a strawman argument. It doesn't work that way.
And either you know this and are being deliberately intellectually disingenuous or you don't, in which case it's a good learning point. Either way, the point I made is correct in relation to the basis of base mana values mapping to stats.
What you don't seem to be realising is that it simply doesn't mean you can just apply the same rule over and over because stats have a different impact as they get higher, so of course you don't get a vanilla 3 mana 6/6 minion, because it doesn't work that way.
Stats don't accumulate in a linear progression, because if that was the case, then the power creep would be immense. But they can be applied systematically and singularly based on a prior set of balanced stats.
Millhouse...o wait, that's a legendary with a huge drawback
Van Cleef..legendary and combo..
Well shaman has almost has a 4 cost 8/8..(7/7)...oh wait that has 2 overload so thats definitely not a standard either.
Well, theres another cardthats 1 mana and 2/2...o wait..no there isnt. (in wild there is the 2/2 Dr heal both 4)
What does standard mean again?
Fun > Meta
So if you basically repeated, what I said, why do you use an argument that doesn't make sense and what you are actually arguing with? You said that 2/2 is worth 1 mana, because Blazing Battlemage exists. When I pointed out that this is a bs, because this applies only to a 1 mana minion, you firstly responded with literally nothing and now you agreed with me? So where's your point?
In case you didn't notice it's a 8/9 mana card we are talking about here, so if you agree with me that 1 mana logic doesn't apply to higher cost minions, then once again I am lost, what you were actually trying to say by bringing up Blazing Battlemage and then countering your own argument.
Uh - it's not me that was arguing - you're the one who disagreed with the fact I provided. You demanded evidence of something (which I was actually able to legitimately provide, even though it wasnt relevant).
But like you said in your previous comment, however, it's a pointless discussion. To that end, I'm happy to say : "Ok, sure." and get back to other things.
"1 mana is equivalent to 2/2 of stats, as per the vanilla 1 mana minion with 2/2." - these are your words.
You are wrong, so wrong, yet you use statements like "learning point" for me and act as if you were right, but said "ok, I have no time to argue".
You clearly stated an idiocy, in the end even agreeing with the arguments, which showed you stated an idiocy (what makes it even more funny) and try to put it all upside down by neglectful statements as if you never said, what I claim you did. But your idiocy, which I just quoted, is up there - a few posts before for everyone to see.
Learning point my ass.
You are pathetic.
"Ok, sure."
9 times out of 10, when I played this before, I got a 7/7, and 2x 5/7 with taunt, and deathrattle summon a 5/5 with lifesteal.
That is 27/31 with taunt, and lifesteal over 5 minions.
The cost was reduced by 11%
2/2 of stats is significantly less than 11% of 27/31 with taunt and lifesteal.
I made a Quest Big Demon Warlock, and I've had people add me after and ask for my deck list, because it's a powerful and interesting deck.
The patch made my deck better.
As I said before, I got a golden version of Archwitch Willow with my bundle... I would be thrilled to get a pile of free dust. However, how can I expect one when they made a big card in my favourite deck more powerful. That would be ridiculous.
What this really comes down to is, "I have a card that I don't know how to use, or don't want, and Blizzard changed it, so I deserve refund."
Refunds are for people who crafted a card to make a certain deck. When they nerf said card, Blizzard offers a refund, because there's a good chance the people wouldn't have crafted said card with it's post nerf stats.
This situation is not that. If you crafted Archwitch Willow. You should be happy with this change. If you opened her in a pack, and just don't like her. Then the nerf policy isn't for you regardless. I have lots of legendaries I'll never use. That's life.
Little annoying you used best possible standard result as example.
If youre playing Willow with only 2 demons in your deck, its absolute trash.
Fun > Meta
Sorry, you're right.. you could pull the 4/6 Taunt/Heal card, however you're running lots of draw, 2 cards that reshuffle your hand, and she pulls 1 from deck, and 1 from hand... I have a great winrate with the deck and probably at least 85% of the time, I get the pull I want... It doesn't take much forethought to organize it, but yes, there is the odd time where you'll have both of the 9 cost demons in hand before you've played the 6 cost demons and after you've played both shuffle cards.
edit: I actually recently added the 4/5 Taunt demons that get +3/+3 with Soul Fragment, so I guess that's the worst pull, but like I said, 85% premium pull if you plan ahead.
That makes much more sense.
1: 5/5 4/5 4/5 - 8 mana 13/15
2: 5/5 4/5 4/6- 8 mana 14/15
3.5/5 4/6 4/6- 8 mana 15/15
4. 5/5 4/5 5/7 - 8 mana 14/17 (possible 5/5)
5. 5/5 4/6 5/7 8 mana 14/18 (possible 5/5)
6. 5/5 5/7 5/7 8 mana 15/19 (possible 5/5 5/5)
Personally only willow deck ive played had siege breakers in it, but above is your possible results. Less than 50/50 chance to have dreadlord without even considering hand and whats left in deck.
Fun > Meta