At the first round of Ras, my opponent didn't draw 3 cards, for the 3 minions I first killed. Cult Master worked as if I had killed all the minions at once, and I didn't, they were 2 separated effects. My opponent would have died if this worked like it should, since he was on fatigue already (I won anyway though lol)
but it fels into bliz buggy concepts, i guess. game first let's you do your end of turn effects, only after this it checks the Cult Master abillity (which got killed after 2nd proc). so it would be a bug in perfect world, but it's ok in blizz world, so i wouldn't report, no sense. happy New Year!
Honestly, I haven't experienced enough "end of turn" effects to really say how it should go. But my theory is this:
In the HS code, end of turn effects all happen at the "same time", even though it looks like one goes after the other, they all need to finish before anything else is calculated. Therefore, both of your Ras' attacked before Cult Master noticed anything died.
This would also explain why if your end of turn effect summons a minion, which also has an end of turn effect, that it doesn't trigger that same turn. For example, Pit Commander pulling a Priestess of Fury from your deck.
Now, it doesn't seem unreasonable that each one can happen in the order the cards were played, as other cards work, each one can resolve and then move on to the other. However, as the example above, there may be cases where that makes your turn too powerful, so they don't let it happen that way.
Death events (and Deathrattles btw) trigger AFTER all damage events have been resolved on your turn. An Avenging Wrath on a single Cairne Bloodhoof will never hit Baine Bloodhoof. Thats one of the Control archetypes weaknesses. Only exceptions are board clears like Earthquake or Immolation Aura, which can hit minions summoned by Deathrattle effects.
But in your case the combined damage of both Ras Frostwhispers destroyed the Cult Master, preventing him from triggering its ability.
Such a strange interaction lol. They really should fix these things and stop putting excuses. They won't do this since it's complicated and they probably have better things to do (cofcof win money cofcof). This kind of strange synergies deny such wonderful lethal or setup scenarios haha.
I think the interesting thing here is to compare Ras Frostwhisper triggering twice with Immolation Aura. They look identical in effect but it seems that Ras triggering twice happens in "one action" if we consider actions as chronological time periods in the game whereas Immolation aura happens in "two actions". Strange, as it would be easy to think it being the other way round!
I think the interesting thing here is to compare Ras Frostwhisper triggering twice with Immolation Aura. They look identical in effect but it seems that Ras triggering twice happens in "one action" if we consider actions as chronological time periods in the game whereas Immolation aura happens in "two actions". Strange, as it would be easy to think it being the other way round!
The wording on boardclears that can also hit minions summoned from Deathrattles is definitely weird but they had to introduce them to balance Control vs. Aggro in the same ratio as in Classic/Basic with more Deathrattle Aggro cards like Murmy coming to Hearthstone.
Regarding End of Turn effects and other effects like the one from Trueaim Crescent: They always trigger in the order the minions were played on the board. A Blood Imp on turn 1 will always trigger first, then the Imp Master from turn 3 and this combo is intentional.
Such a strange interaction lol. They really should fix these things and stop putting excuses. They won't do this since it's complicated and they probably have better things to do (cofcof win money cofcof). This kind of strange synergies deny such wonderful lethal or setup scenarios haha.
While I agree that the wording is often times not clear enough, it's a very core game design to Hearthstone and necessary for the game to work properly (=balanced regarding Midrange to Control).
Another interesting interaction is Baron Geddon + Shaman Totems. If a Healing Totem is on your board and was summoned AFTER Baron Geddon, the Baron will not destroy your Totems since the Heaing Totem will heal them back to 1 health. This only works once though, since there is minus damage in the game. That means that the second time Baron Geddon does deal 2 damage to your 1 health totems, they will be at -1 health. Healing Totem heals back 1, still destroying everything since they are now at 0 health.
Such a strange interaction lol. They really should fix these things and stop putting excuses. They won't do this since it's complicated and they probably have better things to do (cofcof win money cofcof). This kind of strange synergies deny such wonderful lethal or setup scenarios haha.
While I agree that the wording is often times not clear enough, it's a very core game design to Hearthstone and necessary for the game to work properly (=balanced regarding Midrange to Control).
Another interesting interaction is Baron Geddon + Shaman Totems. If a Healing Totem is on your board and was summoned AFTER Baron Geddon, the Baron will not destroy your Totems since the Heaing Totem will heal them back to 1 health. This only works once though, since there is minus damage in the game. That means that the second time Baron Geddon does deal 2 damage to your 1 health totems, they will be at -1 health. Healing Totem heals back 1, still destroying everything since they are now at 0 health.
I find these interactions so very interesting... the order of play is important, but they both still activate and combine their effects to resolve.
So in the same way, if you were at 2 HP and had a Baron Geddon on board, then play a Sandhoof Waterbearer, you could potentially take the lethal damage and then also heal back to 5 HP?
Such a strange interaction lol. They really should fix these things and stop putting excuses. They won't do this since it's complicated and they probably have better things to do (cofcof win money cofcof). This kind of strange synergies deny such wonderful lethal or setup scenarios haha.
While I agree that the wording is often times not clear enough, it's a very core game design to Hearthstone and necessary for the game to work properly (=balanced regarding Midrange to Control).
Another interesting interaction is Baron Geddon + Shaman Totems. If a Healing Totem is on your board and was summoned AFTER Baron Geddon, the Baron will not destroy your Totems since the Heaing Totem will heal them back to 1 health. This only works once though, since there is minus damage in the game. That means that the second time Baron Geddon does deal 2 damage to your 1 health totems, they will be at -1 health. Healing Totem heals back 1, still destroying everything since they are now at 0 health.
I find these interactions so very interesting... the order of play is important, but they both still activate and combine their effects to resolve.
So in the same way, if you were at 2 HP and had a Baron Geddon on board, then play a Sandhoof Waterbearer, you could potentially take the lethal damage and then also heal back to 5 HP?
Should work that way, yes. What's also interesting is the way dormant effects work in the game. If your opponent kills your Fel Summoner on his turn and pulls Imprisoned Antaen from your hand, the dormant effect will trigger one turn earlier as opposed to playing Imprisoned Antaen on your turn.
Such a strange interaction lol. They really should fix these things and stop putting excuses. They won't do this since it's complicated and they probably have better things to do (cofcof win money cofcof). This kind of strange synergies deny such wonderful lethal or setup scenarios haha.
While I agree that the wording is often times not clear enough, it's a very core game design to Hearthstone and necessary for the game to work properly (=balanced regarding Midrange to Control).
Another interesting interaction is Baron Geddon + Shaman Totems. If a Healing Totem is on your board and was summoned AFTER Baron Geddon, the Baron will not destroy your Totems since the Heaing Totem will heal them back to 1 health. This only works once though, since there is minus damage in the game. That means that the second time Baron Geddon does deal 2 damage to your 1 health totems, they will be at -1 health. Healing Totem heals back 1, still destroying everything since they are now at 0 health.
I find these interactions so very interesting... the order of play is important, but they both still activate and combine their effects to resolve.
So in the same way, if you were at 2 HP and had a Baron Geddon on board, then play a Sandhoof Waterbearer, you could potentially take the lethal damage and then also heal back to 5 HP?
Yeah this is correct. It’s a similar concept to swinging into a minion and killing yourself with a lifesteal weapon but surviving, or life tapping into a soul fragment when at 1 or 2 life. Certain effects, including end of turn effects, resolve in a sequence and must all resolve before any other effects are able to activate (in the latter example, you could also draw a bomb for lethal, and then one or multiple soul fragments to survive).
You can test this easily by playing 2 doomsayers at once. Both will explode before any minions are killed, and they will only clear one board between them, ignoring anything summoned by a deathrattle.
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This was the scenario. My opponent had 7 minions:
One Cult Master, 3 1 health minions, 2 with 2 health, and a big boy.
I use Ras Frostwhisper + Potion of Illusion + Copy of Ras.
At the first round of Ras, my opponent didn't draw 3 cards, for the 3 minions I first killed. Cult Master worked as if I had killed all the minions at once, and I didn't, they were 2 separated effects. My opponent would have died if this worked like it should, since he was on fatigue already (I won anyway though lol)
What do you guys think? Should I report it?
sequence feels wrong for a smart man, like we are
but it fels into bliz buggy concepts, i guess. game first let's you do your end of turn effects, only after this it checks the Cult Master abillity (which got killed after 2nd proc).
so it would be a bug in perfect world, but it's ok in blizz world, so i wouldn't report, no sense.
happy New Year!
Honestly, I haven't experienced enough "end of turn" effects to really say how it should go. But my theory is this:
In the HS code, end of turn effects all happen at the "same time", even though it looks like one goes after the other, they all need to finish before anything else is calculated. Therefore, both of your Ras' attacked before Cult Master noticed anything died.
This would also explain why if your end of turn effect summons a minion, which also has an end of turn effect, that it doesn't trigger that same turn. For example, Pit Commander pulling a Priestess of Fury from your deck.
Now, it doesn't seem unreasonable that each one can happen in the order the cards were played, as other cards work, each one can resolve and then move on to the other. However, as the example above, there may be cases where that makes your turn too powerful, so they don't let it happen that way.
It does 2 dmg to every opponents minion and hero cult master dies first so no card draw.
Death events (and Deathrattles btw) trigger AFTER all damage events have been resolved on your turn. An Avenging Wrath on a single Cairne Bloodhoof will never hit Baine Bloodhoof. Thats one of the Control archetypes weaknesses. Only exceptions are board clears like Earthquake or Immolation Aura, which can hit minions summoned by Deathrattle effects.
But in your case the combined damage of both Ras Frostwhispers destroyed the Cult Master, preventing him from triggering its ability.
Such a strange interaction lol. They really should fix these things and stop putting excuses. They won't do this since it's complicated and they probably have better things to do (cofcof win money cofcof). This kind of strange synergies deny such wonderful lethal or setup scenarios haha.
I think the interesting thing here is to compare Ras Frostwhisper triggering twice with Immolation Aura. They look identical in effect but it seems that Ras triggering twice happens in "one action" if we consider actions as chronological time periods in the game whereas Immolation aura happens in "two actions". Strange, as it would be easy to think it being the other way round!
The wording on boardclears that can also hit minions summoned from Deathrattles is definitely weird but they had to introduce them to balance Control vs. Aggro in the same ratio as in Classic/Basic with more Deathrattle Aggro cards like Murmy coming to Hearthstone.
Regarding End of Turn effects and other effects like the one from Trueaim Crescent: They always trigger in the order the minions were played on the board. A Blood Imp on turn 1 will always trigger first, then the Imp Master from turn 3 and this combo is intentional.
While I agree that the wording is often times not clear enough, it's a very core game design to Hearthstone and necessary for the game to work properly (=balanced regarding Midrange to Control).
Another interesting interaction is Baron Geddon + Shaman Totems. If a Healing Totem is on your board and was summoned AFTER Baron Geddon, the Baron will not destroy your Totems since the Heaing Totem will heal them back to 1 health. This only works once though, since there is minus damage in the game. That means that the second time Baron Geddon does deal 2 damage to your 1 health totems, they will be at -1 health. Healing Totem heals back 1, still destroying everything since they are now at 0 health.
It would be better if it worked as you said, but this is consistent with every "end of the turn" in the game.
I find these interactions so very interesting... the order of play is important, but they both still activate and combine their effects to resolve.
So in the same way, if you were at 2 HP and had a Baron Geddon on board, then play a Sandhoof Waterbearer, you could potentially take the lethal damage and then also heal back to 5 HP?
Should work that way, yes. What's also interesting is the way dormant effects work in the game. If your opponent kills your Fel Summoner on his turn and pulls Imprisoned Antaen from your hand, the dormant effect will trigger one turn earlier as opposed to playing Imprisoned Antaen on your turn.
Yeah this is correct. It’s a similar concept to swinging into a minion and killing yourself with a lifesteal weapon but surviving, or life tapping into a soul fragment when at 1 or 2 life. Certain effects, including end of turn effects, resolve in a sequence and must all resolve before any other effects are able to activate (in the latter example, you could also draw a bomb for lethal, and then one or multiple soul fragments to survive).
You can test this easily by playing 2 doomsayers at once. Both will explode before any minions are killed, and they will only clear one board between them, ignoring anything summoned by a deathrattle.