So, there has been a lot of speculation about Ice Block moving to the hall of fame, and Blizzard has insinuated that they are looking at the possibility. The community is getting more and more sure this will actually happen, and many are praising the move. I think this is an AWFUL move, however, for a number of reasons:
1:The power level ofIce Block: Ice Block is a unique card that has followed mage's up- and down swings in the meta. It gives you time, but no value, no tempo, no removal and no board presence, hence it's "terrible" rating in arena. The 2 most cancerous mage decks since the game release, Flamewaker tempo mage and mech mage did not run Ice Block, and the card would be an awful choice in those decks. As I write this, Ice Block is sitting right around a 50% winrate at higher levels, and secret mage is an easily countered tier 2 deck.
2: Class identity Mage as a class does not have access to healing, and use limited armor gain and freeze as defensive tools. Ice Block is the only really good way mage can protect themselves, and it fits perfectly with the class identity IMO. If you remove this card, you have to either indtroduce good armor or heal cards, or even more frustrating global freezes.
3: The card IS interactive Ice Block is a often talked about as a non-interactive card, but I think this is false. The mage does make important sacrifices to get the card in play, making it up to the opponent to take advantage: How early can you pop it? How can you push your board advantage without overextending? Is there a way to make them take damage on their own turn? How to put the mage at as low health as possible before poping?
4: Ice Block enables aggro, combo and control archetypes Without its most powerful defensive tool, mage as a class will be limited to a minion based tempo playstyle, something it will be hard pressed by other classes to do successfully. You are essentially removing imporant potential for a class, and I can not understand how this is desireable. Yes, the OTK and 2-turn kills mage can pull off can be frustrating, but playing the decks to legend level has never been a walk in the park, and if you play the decks, you know they often fails to collect the pieces in time, and they have some terrible matchups!
5: Introducing tech cards is a much better option We have Kezan Mystic and Eater of Secrets, but IMO, introducing more and better tech cards against secrets is a much better option than moving Ice Block to Hall of Fame. There are other more creative ways to play against Ice Block like Curse of Rafaam too, and there is much to be explored!
I agree with you. Ice Block is an amazing and flexible card, and in some matchups (control mage vs another fatigue deck) the block isn't relevant. It's fine in Secret Mage because if you beat it, it won't usually be because you popped their Ice Block - it will be because you've survived their entire deck.
However I fully support new cards that interact with secrets. We've had "destroy secrets in play" and "steal a secret." We have Skulking Geist which destroys 1-cost spells in hand and deck....I kind of hope we get something that destroys secrets in hand and deck. Or something that replaces a secret with another one. Anything like that would be fun.
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I don't have a problem with Ice Block, as annoying as it can be. And I appreciate Mages need certain tools.
But we need something better than Eater of Secrets to deal with secrets... especially with the rise of Secret Hunter too (I am guessing due for a boost in the next expansion...)
If I read that bollocks one more time I'm gonna flip. It really, really, really isn't. There is no varying degree to its activation and effect. You can't lessen the impact as it has a binary trigger, whose effect is always a 100% the same no matter what your opponent does. It's the epitome of a card that has 0 interaction and embodies the "play and forget"-playstyle like no other card in the game.
Make your case, but don't be disingenuous about the card's very valid problems by handwaving them away.
2: Class identity Mage as a class does not have access to healing, and use limited armor gain and freeze as defensive tools. Ice Block is the only really good way mage can protect themselves, and it fits perfectly with the class identity IMO. If you remove this card, you have to either indtroduce good armor or heal cards, or even more frustrating global freezes.
That used to be true, but Arcane Artificer is a really, really, really good defensive card. I think that's going to become quite evident if any slower Mage variants creep back into the meta.
I think the problem is tech cards. They just wrong. You SHOULD play around secrets, but you still can benefit from it without destroying - that would be a good description of an anti-secret card.
No need to remove a card that doesn't need to be removed. I think just about everyone who ever played a mage deck has used Ice Block at some stage. It is a last stand card, that is exactly what it is supposed to do.
I don't see the problem. If it were a stupid power level of corridor creeper (pre nerf) maybe but quite what makes this 1 card so unfathomably unfair is beyond me.
No need to remove a card that doesn't need to be removed. I think just about everyone who ever played a mage deck has used Ice Block at some stage. It is a last stand card, that is exactly what it is supposed to do.
I don't see the problem. If it were a stupid power level of corridor creeper (pre nerf) maybe but quite what makes this 1 card so unfathomably unfair is beyond me.
The card's problems aren't with its power level. It limits design space in mage's defensive repertoire, promotes a toxic solitary-playstyle and is in general unfun to play against (and the deck it's included in). Add on on top that it can be discovered by various means, meaning you can face more than 2-6 Ice Blocks in a single game. It also has nearly infinite secret-synergy, since it can't be triggered until you would have dropped dead. That also means it can be super easily searched for and even put into play for free. Ice Block wouldn't be a much an issue if it was limited to 1 and/or not a "secret".
Also, the power level of "not losing when you'd have lost" is actually pretty huge.
You speak about cancer,when the most cancer thing in Hearthstone is the ability to be killed in one turn without anything you can do.Raza wasnt even that bad since he could be counter by mass armor stacking decks.
Exodia on the other hand,destroys any control deck that has no tech against only this deck.And many times not only control but most of midrange aswell,except aggro.
I prefer to be matched against aggro,cause i like to play control,than to be matched against a BS deck that is guaranteed to kill you no matter what.If you tech against aggro and against OTK decks,then your deck becomes garbage.
I once saw Dog playing the deck,he discovered 5 extra ice blocks on top of his original two,and the guy against him would have basicly won the game 6 times already if not for that totally busted card.
And then you talk about control is favored cause of fatigue???What are you rank 15?Who cares about the old archetypes of mage,people got mad after exodia became a thing,which made ice block broken.If exodia mage had a higher win rate and aggro decks wasnt there to keep the deck in check,then there wouldnt be any control deck because exodia counters every single one.
Except if you turn your deck into garbage teching rats and secret eaters,and even then,you are not guaranteed to hit the required cards to win.
Ice Block can be nullified by all the Secret Tech Cards in the game,
Like the only neutral tech card that rotates out ?
Yes, do not worry, Blizzard will Print a new Secret Tech Card with April's Expansion, that is what they did with Eater. Since they were rotating Kezan Mystic out, they had to provide a Tech Card for Standard.
Posted this in another thread but I think it would be a cool idea. The stats are probably wrong though.
ATTACHMENTS
Deleter of Secrets
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You speak about cancer,when the most cancer thing in Hearthstone is the ability to be killed in one turn without anything you can do.Raza wasnt even that bad since he could be counter by mass armor stacking decks.
Exodia on the other hand,destroys any control deck that has no tech against only this deck.And many times not only control but most of midrange aswell,except aggro.
I prefer to be matched against aggro,cause i like to play control,than to be matched against a BS deck that is guaranteed to kill you no matter what.If you tech against aggro and against OTK decks,then your deck becomes garbage.
I once saw Dog playing the deck,he discovered 5 extra ice blocks on top of his original two,and the guy against him would have basicly won the game 6 times already if not for that totally busted card.
And then you talk about control is favored cause of fatigue???What are you rank 15?Who cares about the old archetypes of mage,people got mad after exodia became a thing,which made ice block broken.If exodia mage had a higher win rate and aggro decks wasnt there to keep the deck in check,then there wouldnt be any control deck because exodia counters every single one.
Except if you turn your deck into garbage teching rats and secret eaters,and even then,you are not guaranteed to hit the required cards to win.
Exodia has an awful global winrate of 40-45 ATM, and slower decks like cubelock and dragon priest do perfectly fine against it. The definition of cancer is subjective, but I think a deck needs a high play- and winrate to qualify to the term. That you don't like to lose to it is not enough.
You speak about cancer,when the most cancer thing in Hearthstone is the ability to be killed in one turn without anything you can do.Raza wasnt even that bad since he could be counter by mass armor stacking decks.
Exodia on the other hand,destroys any control deck that has no tech against only this deck.And many times not only control but most of midrange aswell,except aggro.
I prefer to be matched against aggro,cause i like to play control,than to be matched against a BS deck that is guaranteed to kill you no matter what.If you tech against aggro and against OTK decks,then your deck becomes garbage.
I once saw Dog playing the deck,he discovered 5 extra ice blocks on top of his original two,and the guy against him would have basicly won the game 6 times already if not for that totally busted card.
And then you talk about control is favored cause of fatigue???What are you rank 15?Who cares about the old archetypes of mage,people got mad after exodia became a thing,which made ice block broken.If exodia mage had a higher win rate and aggro decks wasnt there to keep the deck in check,then there wouldnt be any control deck because exodia counters every single one.
Except if you turn your deck into garbage teching rats and secret eaters,and even then,you are not guaranteed to hit the required cards to win.
Exodia has an awful global winrate of 40-45 ATM, and slower decks like cubelock and dragon priest do perfectly fine against it. The definition of cancer is subjective, but I think a deck needs a high play- and winrate to qualify to the term. That you don't like to lose to it is not enough.
Yeah but dragon priest/cubelock don't just freeze/remove everything every turn until you either get a stupid combo off or lose to aggression. When you're playing against cubelock and dragon priest you don't think "if he has two combo cards and almost is done with the quest I'm dead".
Mage will still have its stall card in Arcane Artificer, so Mage will still be good w/ sustain.
Remember Raza the Chained once a fine balanced card that didn't see much play till death knight cards entered the game. I feel that discovery and random generated cards made a card like Ice Block very annoying card to play against the last couple of years. The OP might claim it's interactive but the fast majority of the players including the developers said that Ice Block is one major offenders of the least interactive* decks in Hearthstone history when combined with freeze effect cards. *(Freeze and Quest mage). That said i think it also opened up card interactions that would otherwise not be possible like echo of Medivh giant mage and grinder mage.
Tech cards that hard counter secrets primarily are niche cards. You really limit your deck to tech against secrets because of the limited amount of match ups it will positively affect.
I really hope we will explore more mechanics around secrets and new secrets in the up coming year like the year of the Mammoth. Rogue gained a couple of secrets and new deck type for hunter to play secrets in.
What defines a card's interactivity is whether or not there is counterplay available for it. There are both Counters aswell as methods to play around it, meaning it is interactive.
The simple fact that you cannot understand that every single card that is countered land in a binary interaction, either it works or it's nullified, like Ice Block either activates or gets removed by a Tech Card; and that the non binary interaction, the aspect of playing around the card, is where different levels of impact the card can have comes into place, where you can start an extra turn at 1 HP or 30 HP, that is the impact that can be changed, as a turn at 1 HP and one at 30 HP is quite different. A turn where you are dead if you don't kill the opponent, and a turn where you can safely deal with the opponent because you at 30 HP. That is a MASSIVE difference.
It's hard, I don't know what else to tell you explain something you don't want to understand.
Binary Interaction - Mirror Entity copies a minion or not? Counterspell stops a spell or not? Ice Block makes the Mage immune or not?
Non-Binary Interaction - What minion does the Mirror Entity copy? What spell does Counterspell stop? In what game state does the Mage play its Extra Turn in?
You can minimize the impact of the minion Mirror copies, the spell Counterspell stops, the extra turn the Mage has.
Just because you gave a Wisp for the Mirror Entity, you played a Coin into the Counterspell, or put the Mage at 1 HP, NONE OF THESE SECURE YOUR WIN. They simply minimize the impact of the Mage's Secret, they can still win the game after that.
I don't remember with whom, but this weak not-understanding-the-game-at-a-basic-level kind of argument feels awfully similar.
I won't bother responding due to the sheer handwaving and mental gymnastics that went down the last time. When someone can't understand that the level between countering the coin and pyro is a DEGREE of an effect, despite it having a "binary trigger" according to you (which you still don't understand correctly btw), while Ice Block's effect is always THE SAME FULL EFFECT, then there is no base for discussion.
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So, there has been a lot of speculation about Ice Block moving to the hall of fame, and Blizzard has insinuated that they are looking at the possibility. The community is getting more and more sure this will actually happen, and many are praising the move. I think this is an AWFUL move, however, for a number of reasons:
1: The power level of Ice Block:
Ice Block is a unique card that has followed mage's up- and down swings in the meta. It gives you time, but no value, no tempo, no removal and no board presence, hence it's "terrible" rating in arena. The 2 most cancerous mage decks since the game release, Flamewaker tempo mage and mech mage did not run Ice Block, and the card would be an awful choice in those decks. As I write this, Ice Block is sitting right around a 50% winrate at higher levels, and secret mage is an easily countered tier 2 deck.
2: Class identity
Mage as a class does not have access to healing, and use limited armor gain and freeze as defensive tools. Ice Block is the only really good way mage can protect themselves, and it fits perfectly with the class identity IMO. If you remove this card, you have to either indtroduce good armor or heal cards, or even more frustrating global freezes.
3: The card IS interactive
Ice Block is a often talked about as a non-interactive card, but I think this is false. The mage does make important sacrifices to get the card in play, making it up to the opponent to take advantage: How early can you pop it? How can you push your board advantage without overextending? Is there a way to make them take damage on their own turn? How to put the mage at as low health as possible before poping?
4: Ice Block enables aggro, combo and control archetypes
Without its most powerful defensive tool, mage as a class will be limited to a minion based tempo playstyle, something it will be hard pressed by other classes to do successfully. You are essentially removing imporant potential for a class, and I can not understand how this is desireable. Yes, the OTK and 2-turn kills mage can pull off can be frustrating, but playing the decks to legend level has never been a walk in the park, and if you play the decks, you know they often fails to collect the pieces in time, and they have some terrible matchups!
5: Introducing tech cards is a much better option
We have Kezan Mystic and Eater of Secrets, but IMO, introducing more and better tech cards against secrets is a much better option than moving Ice Block to Hall of Fame. There are other more creative ways to play against Ice Block like Curse of Rafaam too, and there is much to be explored!
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
I agree with you. Ice Block is an amazing and flexible card, and in some matchups (control mage vs another fatigue deck) the block isn't relevant. It's fine in Secret Mage because if you beat it, it won't usually be because you popped their Ice Block - it will be because you've survived their entire deck.
However I fully support new cards that interact with secrets. We've had "destroy secrets in play" and "steal a secret." We have Skulking Geist which destroys 1-cost spells in hand and deck....I kind of hope we get something that destroys secrets in hand and deck. Or something that replaces a secret with another one. Anything like that would be fun.
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I agree with Kaladin.
I don't have a problem with Ice Block, as annoying as it can be. And I appreciate Mages need certain tools.
But we need something better than Eater of Secrets to deal with secrets... especially with the rise of Secret Hunter too (I am guessing due for a boost in the next expansion...)
ya id have to agree i don't think it should be touched
You speak of cancer, yet mention mech but not exodia or freeze?!
sorry but its just bullshit to lose a game you've technically already one once or even twice.
its like last stand in call of duty, and we both know how much everyone LOVED that...
Hall of Fame:
Does it exist for Big B to make more money?
or
Does it exist because “cards are too powerful?”
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
If I read that bollocks one more time I'm gonna flip. It really, really, really isn't. There is no varying degree to its activation and effect. You can't lessen the impact as it has a binary trigger, whose effect is always a 100% the same no matter what your opponent does. It's the epitome of a card that has 0 interaction and embodies the "play and forget"-playstyle like no other card in the game.
Make your case, but don't be disingenuous about the card's very valid problems by handwaving them away.
That used to be true, but Arcane Artificer is a really, really, really good defensive card. I think that's going to become quite evident if any slower Mage variants creep back into the meta.
I think the problem is tech cards. They just wrong. You SHOULD play around secrets, but you still can benefit from it without destroying - that would be a good description of an anti-secret card.
No need to remove a card that doesn't need to be removed. I think just about everyone who ever played a mage deck has used Ice Block at some stage. It is a last stand card, that is exactly what it is supposed to do.
I don't see the problem. If it were a stupid power level of corridor creeper (pre nerf) maybe but quite what makes this 1 card so unfathomably unfair is beyond me.
You speak about cancer,when the most cancer thing in Hearthstone is the ability to be killed in one turn without anything you can do.Raza wasnt even that bad since he could be counter by mass armor stacking decks.
Exodia on the other hand,destroys any control deck that has no tech against only this deck.And many times not only control but most of midrange aswell,except aggro.
I prefer to be matched against aggro,cause i like to play control,than to be matched against a BS deck that is guaranteed to kill you no matter what.If you tech against aggro and against OTK decks,then your deck becomes garbage.
I once saw Dog playing the deck,he discovered 5 extra ice blocks on top of his original two,and the guy against him would have basicly won the game 6 times already if not for that totally busted card.
And then you talk about control is favored cause of fatigue???What are you rank 15?Who cares about the old archetypes of mage,people got mad after exodia became a thing,which made ice block broken.If exodia mage had a higher win rate and aggro decks wasnt there to keep the deck in check,then there wouldnt be any control deck because exodia counters every single one.
Except if you turn your deck into garbage teching rats and secret eaters,and even then,you are not guaranteed to hit the required cards to win.
Just Another Legend Player#Kappa
Like the only neutral tech card that rotates out ?
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
Join me at Out of Cards!
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
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Unpopular opinion: Rogue is OP
Remember Raza the Chained once a fine balanced card that didn't see much play till death knight cards entered the game. I feel that discovery and random generated cards made a card like Ice Block very annoying card to play against the last couple of years.
The OP might claim it's interactive but the fast majority of the players including the developers said that Ice Block is one major offenders of the least interactive* decks in Hearthstone history when combined with freeze effect cards. *(Freeze and Quest mage). That said i think it also opened up card interactions that would otherwise not be possible like echo of Medivh giant mage and grinder mage.
Tech cards that hard counter secrets primarily are niche cards. You really limit your deck to tech against secrets because of the limited amount of match ups it will positively affect.
I really hope we will explore more mechanics around secrets and new secrets in the up coming year like the year of the Mammoth. Rogue gained a couple of secrets and new deck type for hunter to play secrets in.