Hearthpwn

Same as Barnes, it's a dumb card that have little to no counterplay.

And stealth can still be played around much more effectively and with more interactivity. 

For example, a stealth minion can still be killed/immobilized or removed from the board by cards like Unwilling Sacrifice, AOEs (Hellfire, Frost Nova, Shadow Word: Horror, Vanish, etc), prevented from attacking with a Taunt, random target removal, etc.

Even Valeera the Hollow's stealth have ways around and more interactivity, as she isn't immune to spells with random targets or effects that don't require targeting to affect the enemy hero like Mind Blast and Sinister Strike,  AOEs like Fellfire Potion and even the Hunter hero power.

Mal'Ganis is a minion. Other minions can simply attack and kill him. He can be destroyed, polymorphed, devolved, returned to hand, mind controlled, attacked with weapons, etc. More importantly, the immunity effect can end on your own turn if you deal with Mal'Ganis and then kill the Warlock without him getting a free next turn.

Meanwhile with Ice Block unless you have a very specific tech that's only really good for this matchup and class, you simply pop the block and pass the turn, no matter which spells you have on hand, minions on board or weapons equipped and amount of mana left. Warlocks at least have to worry about Mal'Ganis being susceptible to a plethora of ways of being removed from the board.

But Ice Block is a very easy fire-and-forget. At some point you can simply ignore the board and spend mana to proceed to safely and without a single worry to  assemble a combo, place another block and proceed to discover and buy more cards instead of using AOE (or discovering it), burn directly to face since you're immune to your enemy's turn anyway... Even just buying a turn hoping for the perfect top decking is extremely valuable. 

Being able to discover more Ice Blocks is just insult to the injury.

Quote from SlydE >>

 

5: Introducing tech cards is a much better option
We have Kezan Mystic and Eater of Secrets, but IMO, introducing more and better tech cards against secrets is a much better option than moving Ice Block to Hall of Fame. There are other more creative ways to play against Ice Block like Curse of Rafaam too, and there is much to be explored!

Quote from DiamondDM13 >>

 

Quote from PolyphemosJM89 >>

@DiamondDM13

You're an insufferable buttmuncher.

See, that's an insult, regardless of whether or not you take offense. You keep confusing being insulted with being offended.

I don't know why you insist on repeating those trivial statements about secrets being interactive and facts being indisputable in every one of your posts, I have not once attempted to refuted them. Quite the contrary, actually.

Are you actually insisting that immunity is not an integral part of Ice Block? I can't imagine what would be the value of discussing the card without taking its effect into consideration.

 I'm not insisting the Immunity effect is not integral to Ice Block. What I'm saying tis hat Ice Block itself doesn't suffer from interactivity problems, the Immunity effect that it gives another target is the one that suffers from interactivity problems. Ice Block itself has no difference from other Secrets in regards to interactivity, it is the same. The effec that it puts on the Target, Immunity, is different in terms of interactivity.

Discussing Ice Block without taking it's effect into consideration doesn't make much sense, that is, until people start talking about interactivity and start attributing the interaction restrictions of the Immune Effect to Ice Block. For that they would need to do the exact same thing to Mal'Ganis, since that card is exactly the same. It is a card that can be nullified and player around, but it grants another target the Immune effect, and that limits interaction with the target, but not with Mal'Ganis.

The fact is, Ice Block and all Secrets are very much interactive by design, Mal'Ganis is very much interactive by design. The Immunity Effect is very limited in interactions by design.

This card is just terribly designed. It is really far away from "interactive"!
And you know why? Mage has many freeze spells ( 2x Nova, 2x Blizzard ) +  2x - 4x Ice block... Yes, i met many mages that got 2 extra ice blocks from glyph. With these spells, you can just play like "Draw a card, ignore entire board, draw a card, freeze board, draw a card, oops! i'm out of freezes... It's time to just put Ice blocks in play and keep ignoring board!"

Mage is TERRIBLY designed class that allows you to ignore board and then just OTK your opponent. That's wrong and it needs to be changed - And only way how to change it is to rotate Ice block :)

Btw. You can easily play Mage w/o Ice block - Just check some Tempo / Control mages 

Quote from 1T0S_ >>

This card is just terribly designed. It is really far away from "interactive"!
And you know why? Mage has many freeze spells ( 2x Nova, 2x Blizzard ) +  2x - 4x Ice block... Yes, i met many mages that got 2 extra ice blocks from glyph. With these spells, you can just play like "Draw a card, ignore entire board, draw a card, freeze board, draw a card, oops! i'm out of freezes... It's time to just put Ice blocks in play and keep ignoring board!"

Mage is TERRIBLY designed class that allows you to ignore board and then just OTK your opponent. That's wrong and it needs to be changed - And only way how to change it is to rotate Ice block :)

Btw. You can easily play Mage w/o Ice block - Just check some Tempo / Control mages 

@DiamondDM13, you're right that Secrets are interactive, but not about Ice Block being interactive.

For example, let's consider Explosive Runes. A player can decide to sacrifice a weaker minion and take damage face to preserve a better minion. If he's low on health, he might throw the better minion to not take damage to the face. You can throw a Deathrattle minion to maybe turn Runes into your benefit. Or a Divine Shield minion. Or an Enrage minion.

If one suspects of a Vaporize, you attack with a low value minion first. If you only have one big minion, you may simply prefer to not attack at all.

If you have an important spell you might first want to test for a Counterspell. But sometimes you won't have mana to use both the testing spell and the one you need to use. Sometimes you can. 

All those effects provide both players with decisions, ways to play around said effects in multiple ways and interactivity. And once you play around the effect, correctly or incorrectly, the secret is gone.

Ice Block does none of that. Except for the one specific tech card for this specific situation (in Standard), you can't do anything else. You just go and put the mage at the lowest possible health before popping the block. There's nothing of the same situations and decisions involved while playing around the other secrets. Once Ice Block is played it stays there until it's popped without any other possible kinda of interaction outside of that one tech card (or also Flare, if you're Hunter). 

No class needs to tech a single specific card specifically for Mal'Ganis in comparison. There are multiple ways in dealing with him available to all classes. Ice Block only has one card and one way available to all classes to interact with it other than popping the block (in Standard at least).

And for better comparison, all the other secrets don't require tech cards to be played around or dealt with. Only Ice Block.

The developers themselves said Ice Block limit their design space for Mages. Effects like Artificer and Jaina DK are new ways to explore the class that also make sense and are flavorful. 

People are saying Mages lack this and that, and if we are to take into consideration the dev's words, Ice Block most likely has a lot to do with it. 

Somehow unrelated, but I suspect Ice Block is the reason Temporus is a Priest card instead of a mage one. The Time manipulation theme of the card is more suited for Mage than Priest. And Temporus + Ice Block was probably too strong of a combination, so maybe it was switched with Alanna, whose Dragon theme can also fit Priest. Just my theory.

Quote from SlydE >>

 

Quote from 1T0S_ >>

This card is just terribly designed. It is really far away from "interactive"!
And you know why? Mage has many freeze spells ( 2x Nova, 2x Blizzard ) +  2x - 4x Ice block... Yes, i met many mages that got 2 extra ice blocks from glyph. With these spells, you can just play like "Draw a card, ignore entire board, draw a card, freeze board, draw a card, oops! i'm out of freezes... It's time to just put Ice blocks in play and keep ignoring board!"

Mage is TERRIBLY designed class that allows you to ignore board and then just OTK your opponent. That's wrong and it needs to be changed - And only way how to change it is to rotate Ice block :)

Btw. You can easily play Mage w/o Ice block - Just check some Tempo / Control mages 

 

I think what we can agree on is that we need a good anti-secret tech card. History has shown that 3-3 for 3 etc. is the minimum for situational cards like that. As most mages run several secrets, choosing when to play the anti-secret tech is as interactive as can be.

Freeze mage has often been a tournament counterdeck, and important matches has been lost on a mistimed Kezan Mystic.

Also, why are you guys completely ignoring the weaknesses of the card? The card has trash-tier arena rating for a reason...

Quote from DiamondDM13 >>

 Their effects, they ALWAYS activate, and Ice Block makes the Mage immune, the minion ALWAYS gets exploded by runes, the Counterspell ALWAYS stops the Spell. If you activate their trigger without removing them, they ALL activate their effect regardless of what you use to activate them.

Playing a Wisp or a Deathwing both activate Explosive Runes and they both take the damage, you do not stop that effect. Playing a Coin or a Pyroblast into a Counterspell will get countered, both of them, you do not stop that effect. Dealing lethal Damage to a Mage at 1 HP or 30 HP will make them Immune to Damage, both will, you do not stop that effect.

This is a very common mistake, confusing the Counterplay option of Nullifying a Card, which removes it's effect, with the second option of Counterplay, playing around a card, which doesn't remove the effect, it simply minimizes it's effect.

 

I only had an issue with Ice Block when Reno Mage was a thing, and they could just sit back and relax on their block and there was no strategy or timing involved with playing Reno, unlike with Priest and Warlock. But now Reno is Wild, I think Ice Block is fine in Standard.

Discovering multiple blocks with Primordial Glyph is bullshit, but that's not Ice Block's problem. It's just the highroll element of Hearthstone.

Is playing Nourish on turn 5 interactive? I would say it is, because it is spending 5 mana, a card and your entire turn for a potential future advantage. The same goes for every ramp and overload card, you pay a price, hoping you can take advantage of it in the future, but you can also lose the game because of the sacrifice you made.

Ice Block is interactive in the same way. You spend a card and 3 mana, or the price of not putting a more value or tempo oriented secret in your deck. You hope you can spend that extra turn to win the game, but there is absolutely no guarantee that will happen. Very often, you will be a mile off lethal, and faced with a situation it is impossible to deal with, leaving the time bought by Ice Block irrelevant for the outcome of the game.

With so much extreme cheese going on in the game right now, I fail to understand why Ice Block is an offender.

Quote from Zukuu >>

 

Quote from OriginalPerly >>

No need to remove a card that doesn't need to be removed. I think just about everyone who ever played a mage deck has used Ice Block at some stage. It is a last stand card, that is exactly what it is supposed to do. 

I don't see the problem. If it were a stupid power level of corridor creeper (pre nerf)  maybe but quite what makes this 1 card so unfathomably unfair is beyond me. 

The card's problems aren't with its power level. It limits design space in mage's defensive repertoire, promotes a toxic solitary-playstyle and is in general unfun to play against (and the deck it's included in). Add on on top that it can be discovered by various means, meaning you can face more than 2-6 Ice Blocks in a single game. It also has nearly infinite secret-synergy, since it can't be triggered until you would have dropped dead. That also means it can be super easily searched for and even put into play for free. Ice Block wouldn't be a much an issue if it was limited to 1 and/or not a "secret".

Also, the power level of "not losing when you'd have lost" is actually pretty huge. 

cough cough

Quote from DiamondDM13 >>

 

It is Binary:

Zero Interactions Possible = Uninteractive.

At least 1 Interaction possible, any interaction that exists = Interacive.

You can make arguments regarding the level of interactivity, but it is always a level above zero, since there are interactions. The ones you listed are playing around it.

 

Ice block is a retarded card as well as mage is a retarded class. The effect is too strong and the fact that you can discovered the card makes it even more ridiculous. Maybe the card would be ok if mage wasn't a class that had this completly stupid potential of burst. Whatever, everyone is sick of this shit card, we have seen it too many times and it needs to be hall of famed

I have never and will never understand why everyone says ice block is a broken OP card. I have never played a mage build that uses iceblock, but have played against my fair share of freeze mages and quest mages, etc. I dont get why people say they are not interactive. If you see a mage build that may be running ice block you need to start planning ahead, that deck is thinking 5 turns ahead, you just have to think 6 turns ahead. It is the most fun i have in hearthstone. I mostly play wild so HOF Iceblock is just dust for me, but whatever.

Evasion is what Ice Block should always have been.

If it were to be altered, I would suggest "Secret: Whenever you take damage this turn, become Immune and freeze the attacking target."

I mean once it rotates to Wild this is what will happen;

- Ice Block activates -> We're gonna be rich! -> It only cost me my SOUL!

Quote from SlydE >>

OKay maybe limiting design space was an awkward term to use, but my main point is that it is still a discoverable spell for mages, who have a lot of spell generation, so thats what i mean by that. Unlike other secrets, ice block getting used multiple times against you is flat out unfair if you ask me. WHen i said it was a problem i did not mean that the exodia deck was, just their method of winning .You dont have to think it is a problem but it will most likely eventually become a problem with mage getting more generation spells and being able to likely get way too many ice blocks. One day, they will most likely make a card that discovers a secret and you'll see what i mean when I say that ice block could be likely become a problem. It may not be a problem as of now, but with future card designs, it should be considered

So a very lucky exodia mage player discovered 3 Ice Blocks, and it made you hate the card? Don't  worry, it has never happened to me, and almost 100% won't happen to you again either.

I don't understand how that is unfair while things like summoning 4 Voidlords or Obsidian Statues by turn 8 is far more common.