I play against Even Shaman and have a positive winrate against it .Even Shaman has a positive winrate against SA Druid .SA Druid has a positive winrate against me .all fine right ?
No. Because the winrates being positive doesn't mean they are equal .
To put things into perspective ,let's compare SA Druid to Quest Rogue .
Both fail against aggro most of the time yet give a decent challenge (sometimes unwinnable) to other decks .
Control Mage vs pre-nerf Quest Rogue ? Insta concede most of the time . Yes you can play Dragon's Fury ,Flamestrike or Blizzard and Do whatever is possible to win ,but the matchup remains a pain in the a** .
What goes for those big spells also goes with counters like Dirty Rat and Deathlord ,only difference is that big spells are useful most of the time unlike the previously mentioned minions ,and the reason why they are put in the deck is that they are the deck's identity (part of the reason why you don't see big spells (board clears) in tempo mage yet might find a big spell like Pyroblast (burst) in it) .
And still ,the not-as-oppressive and not-counter-demanding Quest Rogue got lots of hate and got nerfed twice and on it's way to a 3rd nerf because of a new card (Giggles) ,while SA Druid (or Toggwaggle) which also got broken because of a new card (JP) ,is being defended when it gets some hate .
Most players want to include as many archetype related cards as possible which would help make the game more fresh ,yet find themselves obliged to include 'packages' to counter specific decks like the pirate package which helps control players be more aggressive against Quest Rogue or the Combo disruption package with 2 Dirty Rats, 2 Deathlords and 2-4 hard removals for Combo Druids just because you need so many many counters to one single deck ,so if Quest Rogue deserved a nerf ,I wonder why Combo Druid is a different case .Wild is Wild ? Not an answer that we want because this is the eternal format and this is where your invested time and money remains ,and if you like losing 75% of your collection every year or not play half of the cards you own simply because 10 cards of your deck are predetermined just to counter one deck or because you don't survive long enough to play them (N'zoth) then it's your fault and not mine .
Note : I never played with Quest Rogue and the only Quest I have ever had is Quest Mage so I'm not defending it ,yet I played against it and against SA druid numerous times and can say for sure that Quest Rogue is not as oppressive as SA Druid .
People saying :" it's Wild it is the way it is " are like people saying :" its Nature it is the way it is " and we shouldn't interfere yet we have cattle and poultry in billions and we make reservations and cure injured endangered animals .
god this retarded " its wild!!! ugnhhhh" commenters here again.
there are strong decks. and then there are OP decks.
big priest, kingsbane and especially star alligner druid belongs to OP ones. even if you specifically tech against star alligner you have a pretty good chance to lose again.
no aggressive deck can pressure them without going wide.
blizz said they dont want that abilities that mess up with your opponents deck and hand to be powerful and here it is turn 6 druid swaps your deck.
Looking at the HSReplays numbers, the deck has an overall play-rate of 6%, rising to 11% at high ranks. There is an ongoing debate in the Wild community regarding the power level of the deck - while it is capable of doing busted things, it's also very easy to exaggerate the performance of any viable combo deck. All of the available data, compiled by VS and HSReplays, suggests that the deck doesn't need to be nerfed for power level reasons - it's a middle-of-the-road, Tier 2 deck, and its win-rate drops as you climb the higher ranks of the ladder. Tog Druid out-performs SA Druid at all ranks of the ladder by 2%-3%. Both decks have relatively low win-rates, despite playing the most powerful cards in the format, because they are vulnerable to aggro decks, and tech choices - unlike the Sea Naga decks which were nerfed earlier this year.
By comparison, three Aggro/Mid-Range decks have dominated the format since WW - Odd Rogue and Odd Paladin, and Even Shaman. They each have over-all win-rates 5%-7% better than SA Druid, and 2%-5% better at high ranks. Also by comparison, virtually no one in the Wild community is suggesting that any of those decks needs to be nerfed. The complaint that Combo Druid is "warping" the format isn't supported by any available dataset - at high ranks, the combined play-rates of the Aggro/MR decks is more than double that of the two Druid decks. And unlike most Combo decks, both flavours of Druid have even-to-bad match-ups against the most popular Control decks in the format - so the complaint that the deck is squeezing other archetypes out of the meta-game isn't exactly accurate.
Blizzard often nerfs cards because they produce game play which isn't "fun", regardless of power-level. I can't speak for others, but I personally don't feel more frustrated losing to a Combo deck on turn six than losing to an Aggro deck on turn six, or a Mid-Range deck that bursts me down on turn six. In all three cases, the top ten cards in my deck, and my opponent's deck, determine who wins - if they have the questions, and I don't have the answers, there is nothing to be done. But that's just called "playing a card game" - if anything, HS players are lucky that there aren't any decks which can regularly goldfish for a win on turn three or four, like just about every other IRL card game which has ever existed.
Can you please stop repeating "It's Wild so even if a Deck is Tier 0 it doesn't matter cause everything,even if stupidly broken, is fine there" it really pisses me off,especially because the vast majority of those that keep repeating that are Standard players that have no clue what's going on in the other format....
Right now Druid is not fine,or better Juicy Psychmelon at such low mana cost isn't fine.... I know people will just say play Dirty Rat/Demonic Project/Deathlord ,the problem is that you have to draw those cards and you have to be able to get rid of the minion that got pulled on the board (Good luck dealing with Aviana in the early game) you have to do that while you're on a clock cause they have more mana than you do and a card that tutors 4 other specific cards.... In any other card game a card like that would have severe downsides or be outright banned.... And please spare me the "I play Even Shaman/Odd Rogue/Odd Paly and I eat Druids for breakfast" the fact that something has a "counter" doesn't necessarily make it balanced and I shouldn't be forced to use a different playstyle just cause they refuse to admit they made a mistake printing a card like Psychmelon in its current iteration...
Wild is always, and always has been broken. the fact is that the power levels are too large for newbie players to handle. Unless you are an experienced and veteran player, don't venture into wild.
That being said, if you can't handle the broken combos in wild, go to standard.
Heck, star aligner druid is only op because of the melon av/kun combo. If you really hate that particular deck, play even shaman. Control warlock. the former can burst down druid quickly and the second disrupts their combo. Its time to quit whining and face the fact that some decks are just stronger than others.
I can handle Wild just fine, Im a multiple legend player on standard and wild, I just feel like this Druid deck makes it impossible to enjoy yourself.
Look at the winrate of odd pally, even shaman, burn mage, odd pirate rogue, starlight druid, etc. There are many powerful decks. Deal with it and stop crying or don't play wild.
The other decks can be beaten with a fun deck, this is the point. Instead of not playing wild, I will continue to complain in hopes of getting some changes to the format since I enjoy it over standard. Standard card set is boring I prefer deathrattle decks and all the good deathrattle cards are in Wild. So I know you gave me 2 choices but I'm going to continue to complain instead.
So what's up with your other threat? You said beating Staraligner and getting Legend is easy along with an 8 min how to video. Why this sudden change?
It is easy to beat with even shaman or the warlock deck like I mentioned, it's just impossible to beat with a deck that doesn't have the ability to dismantle their combo. Makes it so you have to auto concede when seeing them. I would just like to have a small chance at winning with a fun deck instead of knowing my time will be wasted.
If Wild will start getting nerfs right and left... It will kill the idea of wild for me. Naga sea witch nerf was justified because it didn't work as intended other nerfs of wild cards is a bad route to take. Create "wild lite" without certain cards or whatever but don't ruin the idea of wild.
So what's up with your other threat? You said beating Staraligner and getting Legend is easy along with an 8 min how to video. Why this sudden change?
It is easy to beat with even shaman or the warlock deck like I mentioned, it's just impossible to beat with a deck that doesn't have the ability to dismantle their combo. Makes it so you have to auto concede when seeing them. I would just like to have a small chance at winning with a fun deck instead of knowing my time will be wasted.
Wild is not a place for "fun decks" without meta specific tech cards and\or ways to generate insane tempo. And it will never be.
If this deck got nerfed I feel like everything else is in an alright spot. They are so close to a decent Wild meta.
That's not true.
1) Tog is better than Star Aligner 2) Kingsbane will still exist.
Wild is a cesspool of busted stuff. Nerfing one deck, that isn't even the best one, won't "fix" wild. Nothing will fix wild. It's not supposed to be balanced.
If Wild will start getting nerfs right and left... It will kill the idea of wild for me. Naga sea witch nerf was justified because it didn't work as intended other nerfs of wild cards is a bad route to take. Create "wild lite" without certain cards or whatever but don't ruin the idea of wild.
So if Blizzard prints a 0 mana card that wins you the game instantly if you play it while having say less than 15 cards in your deck and it actually works as intended , does this mean it shouldn't be nerfed ? I mean yes it's a stretch but stretches like this show how far philosophies or ideas (like your idea of wild) can go .
All I'm saying is that Combo Druid was never such a huge problem since they had to cycle through the entire deck at times to make a combo work (combo decks are like a reward for you surviving all enemy attempts at finishing you off ,in the shape of an OTK ,but with Juicy Psychemelon ,they seem to get their reward without paying any effort).
If Wild will start getting nerfs right and left... It will kill the idea of wild for me. Naga sea witch nerf was justified because it didn't work as intended other nerfs of wild cards is a bad route to take. Create "wild lite" without certain cards or whatever but don't ruin the idea of wild.
So if Blizzard prints a 0 mana card that wins you the game instantly if you play it while having say less than 15 cards in your deck and it actually works as intended , does this mean it shouldn't be nerfed ? I mean yes it's a stretch but stretches like this show how far philosophies or ideas (like your idea of wild) can go .
All I'm saying is that Combo Druid was never such a huge problem since they had to cycle through the entire deck at times to make a combo work (combo decks are like a reward for you surviving all enemy attempts at finishing you off ,in the shape of an OTK ,but with Juicy Psychemelon ,they seem to get their reward without paying any effort).
Blizzard won't print card like that, because it would be broken in standard. And even if card of that kind of absurdity will be printed - it will be nerfed
Wild is a place where even weak standard cards can become broken. It is the idea behind wild format. Wild is not the place to "fix" cards to "balance" decks.
If Wild will start getting nerfs right and left... It will kill the idea of wild for me. Naga sea witch nerf was justified because it didn't work as intended other nerfs of wild cards is a bad route to take. Create "wild lite" without certain cards or whatever but don't ruin the idea of wild.
So if Blizzard prints a 0 mana card that wins you the game instantly if you play it while having say less than 15 cards in your deck and it actually works as intended , does this mean it shouldn't be nerfed ? I mean yes it's a stretch but stretches like this show how far philosophies or ideas (like your idea of wild) can go .
All I'm saying is that Combo Druid was never such a huge problem since they had to cycle through the entire deck at times to make a combo work (combo decks are like a reward for you surviving all enemy attempts at finishing you off ,in the shape of an OTK ,but with Juicy Psychemelon ,they seem to get their reward without paying any effort).
Blizzard won't print card like that, because it would be broken in standard. And even if card of that kind of absurdity will be printed - it will be nerfed
Wild is a place where even weak standard cards can become broken. It is the idea behind wild format. Wild is not the place to "fix" cards to "balance" decks.
It's a stretch ,of course Blizzard won't print a card like that . People at Blizzard are humans ,and if they release a card which they didn't play test the interactions with fully ,and it turns out to be extremely bonkers ,shouldn't that card be nerfed ? .
You keep saying it's the idea behind Wild ,while in fact there is no idea behind Wild (except according to their site where they say it's for players wanting to TRY old cards again and old interactions ),and that's why in the 'in the works' article on Hearthstone's official website they were asking Wild players what do they want from Wild because there is no general rule by which we should abide . Community wants Naga Sea Witch nerfed ? Done. No rules or principles that make that forbidden . Angry about Blizzard changing cards ? It's so you can play net decks and homebrew decks without feeling like you are helpless and will die turn 5 to combo deck .
Here is the takeaway of what I'm saying : You can consider the period in which a new expansion releases (for Boomsday it's august to december) as a trial for that expansion's card interactions .If Juicy Psychemelon was released with a 6 mana cost ,no one would bat an eye ,it's just one of those other epic cards that are overlooked and ignored ,why can't we nerf it one or two months after release ? What if it were 3 mana ? Is it only then a mistake that needs to be corrected ? At what point does a card need a nerf ?
That's why I stretched the issue at hand to show that it's not about "Wild is broken nerfing would change nothing" ,while in fact it changes everything (Naga nerf) . Still can't get a solid point from people who defend Combo Druid .
If that's for star-aligner which I think it is, that card isn't the problem. lol, juicy psychmelon is because it draws the entire combo, same with the togwaggle version.
If that's for star-aligner which I think it is, that card isn't the problem. lol, juicy psychmelon is because it draws the entire combo, same with the togwaggle version.
Real problem is Aviana + Kun combo. Having a way to play dozens of mana worth of stuff in one turn is ridiculous. You can nerf psychmelon but then you just wait for another good\great druid draw mechanics that will come later. You can nerf current combos but other minion type combos will (re)appear
Why Aviana+Kun even exist? Because of Blizzard's mentality - "It is OK to experiment and create a potentially broken 2 card combo because that combo will stop to exist in few months". It is also the reason why big priest exist. They created standard big priest intentionally in KoFT and intentionally buffed it in K&C because Priest needed help and they knew that Barnes and Y'shaarj will go wild soon.
Don't be surprised to see something like... hm... what class needs help in standard?... Oh, priest... Don't be surprised to see help for priest in the form of another powerful large minion to resurrect\summon with the cloning gallery.
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So what's up with your other threat? You said beating Staraligner and getting Legend is easy along with an 8 min how to video. Why this sudden change?
It's about how polarized matchups are.
I play against Even Shaman and have a positive winrate against it .Even Shaman has a positive winrate against SA Druid .SA Druid has a positive winrate against me .all fine right ?
No. Because the winrates being positive doesn't mean they are equal .
To put things into perspective ,let's compare SA Druid to Quest Rogue .
Both fail against aggro most of the time yet give a decent challenge (sometimes unwinnable) to other decks .
Control Mage vs pre-nerf Quest Rogue ? Insta concede most of the time . Yes you can play Dragon's Fury ,Flamestrike or Blizzard and Do whatever is possible to win ,but the matchup remains a pain in the a** .
What goes for those big spells also goes with counters like Dirty Rat and Deathlord ,only difference is that big spells are useful most of the time unlike the previously mentioned minions ,and the reason why they are put in the deck is that they are the deck's identity (part of the reason why you don't see big spells (board clears) in tempo mage yet might find a big spell like Pyroblast (burst) in it) .
And still ,the not-as-oppressive and not-counter-demanding Quest Rogue got lots of hate and got nerfed twice and on it's way to a 3rd nerf because of a new card (Giggles) ,while SA Druid (or Toggwaggle) which also got broken because of a new card (JP) ,is being defended when it gets some hate .
Most players want to include as many archetype related cards as possible which would help make the game more fresh ,yet find themselves obliged to include 'packages' to counter specific decks like the pirate package which helps control players be more aggressive against Quest Rogue or the Combo disruption package with 2 Dirty Rats, 2 Deathlords and 2-4 hard removals for Combo Druids just because you need so many many counters to one single deck ,so if Quest Rogue deserved a nerf ,I wonder why Combo Druid is a different case .Wild is Wild ? Not an answer that we want because this is the eternal format and this is where your invested time and money remains ,and if you like losing 75% of your collection every year or not play half of the cards you own simply because 10 cards of your deck are predetermined just to counter one deck or because you don't survive long enough to play them (N'zoth) then it's your fault and not mine .
Note : I never played with Quest Rogue and the only Quest I have ever had is Quest Mage so I'm not defending it ,yet I played against it and against SA druid numerous times and can say for sure that Quest Rogue is not as oppressive as SA Druid .
Its wild ffs!
Is a lots of broken op decks there. Its the way it is.
I think when they nerf it they will just make it cost more though, like 7 or 6 mana
Thats not bad imo
People saying :" it's Wild it is the way it is " are like people saying :" its Nature it is the way it is " and we shouldn't interfere yet we have cattle and poultry in billions and we make reservations and cure injured endangered animals .
Positive change is always welcome you know .
god this retarded " its wild!!! ugnhhhh" commenters here again.
there are strong decks. and then there are OP decks.
big priest, kingsbane and especially star alligner druid belongs to OP ones. even if you specifically tech against star alligner you have a pretty good chance to lose again.
no aggressive deck can pressure them without going wide.
blizz said they dont want that abilities that mess up with your opponents deck and hand to be powerful and here it is turn 6 druid swaps your deck.
Looking at the HSReplays numbers, the deck has an overall play-rate of 6%, rising to 11% at high ranks. There is an ongoing debate in the Wild community regarding the power level of the deck - while it is capable of doing busted things, it's also very easy to exaggerate the performance of any viable combo deck. All of the available data, compiled by VS and HSReplays, suggests that the deck doesn't need to be nerfed for power level reasons - it's a middle-of-the-road, Tier 2 deck, and its win-rate drops as you climb the higher ranks of the ladder. Tog Druid out-performs SA Druid at all ranks of the ladder by 2%-3%. Both decks have relatively low win-rates, despite playing the most powerful cards in the format, because they are vulnerable to aggro decks, and tech choices - unlike the Sea Naga decks which were nerfed earlier this year.
By comparison, three Aggro/Mid-Range decks have dominated the format since WW - Odd Rogue and Odd Paladin, and Even Shaman. They each have over-all win-rates 5%-7% better than SA Druid, and 2%-5% better at high ranks. Also by comparison, virtually no one in the Wild community is suggesting that any of those decks needs to be nerfed. The complaint that Combo Druid is "warping" the format isn't supported by any available dataset - at high ranks, the combined play-rates of the Aggro/MR decks is more than double that of the two Druid decks. And unlike most Combo decks, both flavours of Druid have even-to-bad match-ups against the most popular Control decks in the format - so the complaint that the deck is squeezing other archetypes out of the meta-game isn't exactly accurate.
Blizzard often nerfs cards because they produce game play which isn't "fun", regardless of power-level. I can't speak for others, but I personally don't feel more frustrated losing to a Combo deck on turn six than losing to an Aggro deck on turn six, or a Mid-Range deck that bursts me down on turn six. In all three cases, the top ten cards in my deck, and my opponent's deck, determine who wins - if they have the questions, and I don't have the answers, there is nothing to be done. But that's just called "playing a card game" - if anything, HS players are lucky that there aren't any decks which can regularly goldfish for a win on turn three or four, like just about every other IRL card game which has ever existed.
Can you please stop repeating "It's Wild so even if a Deck is Tier 0 it doesn't matter cause everything,even if stupidly broken, is fine there" it really pisses me off,especially because the vast majority of those that keep repeating that are Standard players that have no clue what's going on in the other format....
Right now Druid is not fine,or better Juicy Psychmelon at such low mana cost isn't fine.... I know people will just say play Dirty Rat/Demonic Project/Deathlord ,the problem is that you have to draw those cards and you have to be able to get rid of the minion that got pulled on the board (Good luck dealing with Aviana in the early game) you have to do that while you're on a clock cause they have more mana than you do and a card that tutors 4 other specific cards.... In any other card game a card like that would have severe downsides or be outright banned.... And please spare me the "I play Even Shaman/Odd Rogue/Odd Paly and I eat Druids for breakfast" the fact that something has a "counter" doesn't necessarily make it balanced and I shouldn't be forced to use a different playstyle just cause they refuse to admit they made a mistake printing a card like Psychmelon in its current iteration...
"この 先は 暗い 夜道 だけが も 知らない それでも信じて 進むんだ 星が その道 を 少し でも 照らしてくをるのを"
I remember Pirate Warrior, games i lost on turn 3 and won on turn 3, so stop crying like a little bitch.
I can handle Wild just fine, Im a multiple legend player on standard and wild, I just feel like this Druid deck makes it impossible to enjoy yourself.
The other decks can be beaten with a fun deck, this is the point. Instead of not playing wild, I will continue to complain in hopes of getting some changes to the format since I enjoy it over standard. Standard card set is boring I prefer deathrattle decks and all the good deathrattle cards are in Wild. So I know you gave me 2 choices but I'm going to continue to complain instead.
It is easy to beat with even shaman or the warlock deck like I mentioned, it's just impossible to beat with a deck that doesn't have the ability to dismantle their combo. Makes it so you have to auto concede when seeing them. I would just like to have a small chance at winning with a fun deck instead of knowing my time will be wasted.
If Wild will start getting nerfs right and left... It will kill the idea of wild for me. Naga sea witch nerf was justified because it didn't work as intended other nerfs of wild cards is a bad route to take. Create "wild lite" without certain cards or whatever but don't ruin the idea of wild.
Wild is not a place for "fun decks" without meta specific tech cards and\or ways to generate insane tempo. And it will never be.
That's not true.
1) Tog is better than Star Aligner
2) Kingsbane will still exist.
Wild is a cesspool of busted stuff. Nerfing one deck, that isn't even the best one, won't "fix" wild. Nothing will fix wild. It's not supposed to be balanced.
So if Blizzard prints a 0 mana card that wins you the game instantly if you play it while having say less than 15 cards in your deck and it actually works as intended , does this mean it shouldn't be nerfed ? I mean yes it's a stretch but stretches like this show how far philosophies or ideas (like your idea of wild) can go .
All I'm saying is that Combo Druid was never such a huge problem since they had to cycle through the entire deck at times to make a combo work (combo decks are like a reward for you surviving all enemy attempts at finishing you off ,in the shape of an OTK ,but with Juicy Psychemelon ,they seem to get their reward without paying any effort).
Blizzard won't print card like that, because it would be broken in standard. And even if card of that kind of absurdity will be printed - it will be nerfed
Wild is a place where even weak standard cards can become broken. It is the idea behind wild format. Wild is not the place to "fix" cards to "balance" decks.
It's a stretch ,of course Blizzard won't print a card like that . People at Blizzard are humans ,and if they release a card which they didn't play test the interactions with fully ,and it turns out to be extremely bonkers ,shouldn't that card be nerfed ? .
You keep saying it's the idea behind Wild ,while in fact there is no idea behind Wild (except according to their site where they say it's for players wanting to TRY old cards again and old interactions ),and that's why in the 'in the works' article on Hearthstone's official website they were asking Wild players what do they want from Wild because there is no general rule by which we should abide . Community wants Naga Sea Witch nerfed ? Done. No rules or principles that make that forbidden . Angry about Blizzard changing cards ? It's so you can play net decks and homebrew decks without feeling like you are helpless and will die turn 5 to combo deck .
Here is the takeaway of what I'm saying : You can consider the period in which a new expansion releases (for Boomsday it's august to december) as a trial for that expansion's card interactions .If Juicy Psychemelon was released with a 6 mana cost ,no one would bat an eye ,it's just one of those other epic cards that are overlooked and ignored ,why can't we nerf it one or two months after release ? What if it were 3 mana ? Is it only then a mistake that needs to be corrected ? At what point does a card need a nerf ?
That's why I stretched the issue at hand to show that it's not about "Wild is broken nerfing would change nothing" ,while in fact it changes everything (Naga nerf) . Still can't get a solid point from people who defend Combo Druid .
I think, this belongs here:
All cards are balanced, but some cards are more balanced than others.
If that's for star-aligner which I think it is, that card isn't the problem. lol, juicy psychmelon is because it draws the entire combo, same with the togwaggle version.
Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots.
Real problem is Aviana + Kun combo. Having a way to play dozens of mana worth of stuff in one turn is ridiculous. You can nerf psychmelon but then you just wait for another good\great druid draw mechanics that will come later. You can nerf current combos but other minion type combos will (re)appear
Why Aviana+Kun even exist? Because of Blizzard's mentality - "It is OK to experiment and create a potentially broken 2 card combo because that combo will stop to exist in few months". It is also the reason why big priest exist. They created standard big priest intentionally in KoFT and intentionally buffed it in K&C because Priest needed help and they knew that Barnes and Y'shaarj will go wild soon.
Don't be surprised to see something like... hm... what class needs help in standard?... Oh, priest... Don't be surprised to see help for priest in the form of another powerful large minion to resurrect\summon with the cloning gallery.