Rat Pack has been begging to be moved to tier 3 for awhile now OR needs to be replaced with another minion (e.g. "Mouse Pack" 2/2 summons up to 4 1/1 beasts equal to its power") . Especially with Deathwing now it's just a mad grab in the early game to gobble them up. It isnt skill when you get hit by multiple rat spawns.
Which leads me to my next point: Spawns need to deal half damage. If you roll a 6 drop off something it should really deal 3 damage and when you have the misfortune of popping a huge rat pack last you should not be hit for 7.. You should be hit for 3 as well.
I agree rat should probably move to 3. Its time. And it makes sense its the same tier as Infected Wolf. It´s very slightly weaker when you get it, but has much MUCH higher potential.
Spawns dealing half damage has been talked about for so long now I dont think they´ll change it. They´d rather change the problem cards instead. What I do think is fair is that whatever comes out of the Shredders, Ghastcoilers etc should also deal 1 damage per unit.
Not yet. I think it's only recently an issue because of Deathwing, and people are adjusting pretty quickly. If there's an issue, it's more likely Deathwing, not Rat Pack.
Aside from Deathwing, only Daryl really uses Rat Pack well outside of a dedicated comp.
Rat to 3 seems reasonable. Don't see it occurring though. If you move Rat to 3, then you might as well remove Hyena from the game. Rat is in a really strong place right now with the new update, but I see a nerf to Deathwing or maybe removing some other heroes as more likely.
Half spawns will most likely never happen. First, tokens are already 1 damage, so they aren't going to make them 1/2 a damage. And Shredder, Coiler, etc spawns are annoying when you take 20 random BS damage on turn 8 or something, but that is just the game.
I'd think tokens should be Tier 0. If you break a Rat Pack in your last attack, you should only take damage equal to your opponent's tavern tier.
Not sure if this should also apply to collectible spawns, though, since Shredder never deals a shitton of damage and Coiler's potential is somewhat offset by its high Tier.
It's almost kind of silly that there are Rat Pack, Kindly Grandmother, and Infested Wolf. That's three minions on two tavern tiers who do pretty much the same thing. Not exactly, but close enough.
Personally, I'd cut wolf, move the rat to #3, and add maybe... Dread Raven or Fierce Monkey. Solid 3/4 body doesn't seem terrible as a stand-alone Tier 2 minion. Dread Raven would be wicked silly if it's text ever got used.
Or just make some new beast for Tier 2. A lot of the new dragons are fun; more fun than existing HS minions. Using familiar stuff was a good place to start, but having more new things would be interesting and probably better for overall gameplay.
Also, count me among those who'd prefer that various 1/1 spawn tokens would be "0-star" so no extra damage.
To compensate for +0 damage tokens, maybe golden minions should do +1 star of damage? That'd make golden tokens into essentially 1-star minions with that damage returned. I dunno. Food for thought, I guess.
I agree that Wolf and Rat Pack exhibit an unfun amount of same-y-ness.
You definitely want a saturation of similar effects for your synergies. But Wolf is SO similar that it is basically worthless at TT3, except as something if you've missed Rat Pack (or if you're AFK and you roll both Wolf and Pack Leader). And it isn't able to scale like Rat Pack.
It probably wouldn't hurt to replace Wolf with something a bit more different that Rat pack to justify it's tavern tier.
1) Rat Pack is what carries Beast builds in the Mid game. It's pretty much considered better than Highmane, which you get at tier 5. It massively overpowered, but without a complete overhaul of beast tribe ratpack is required to make the build function at all. It's Like Cobalt at tier 3....card could be tier 4, even tier 5 and it would still be viable, but it supports the entire build, and without it people just don't play mechs.
2) Deathwing is bad design, and will not just be nerfed but changed I think. Also deathwing doesn't give a shit if its teir 2 or teir 3...he's gonna power level up regardless if the player knows what they are doing, so you just end up punishing general beast players.
3) Damage in general is to high and ending games too fast now, with so many more high tier viable minions, its pretty common to hit for 20+ damage. All characters need more health IMO.
4) Infested Wolf just doesn't make sense as a card in BG and should be removed and replaced with something more workable.
3) Damage in general is to high and ending games too fast now, with so many more high tier viable minions, its pretty common to hit for 20+ damage. All characters need more health IMO.
Too fast? Huh? Yes, lategame damage has increased significantly, but the midgame has dropped - to the extent that I often see 7 or 8 people still in with everyone at TT5. That never used to happen, usually two dead by then, if not three or four.
1) Rat Pack is what carries Beast builds in the Mid game. It's pretty much considered better than Highmane, which you get at tier 5. It massively overpowered, but without a complete overhaul of beast tribe ratpack is required to make the build function at all. It's Like Cobalt at tier 3....card could be tier 4, even tier 5 and it would still be viable, but it supports the entire build, and without it people just don't play mechs.
2) Deathwing is bad design, and will not just be nerfed but changed I think. Also deathwing doesn't give a shit if its teir 2 or teir 3...he's gonna power level up regardless if the player knows what they are doing, so you just end up punishing general beast players.
3) Damage in general is to high and ending games too fast now, with so many more high tier viable minions, its pretty common to hit for 20+ damage. All characters need more health IMO.
4) Infested Wolf just doesn't make sense as a card in BG and should be removed and replaced with something more workable.
Beasts are the weakest tribe by far, regardless of Ratpack.
Its too RNG and is completely ruined if Rat is killed too early. The oversaturation of weak deathrattles makes it too hard to empty the board for Rat. They're reliant on two key buffs staying alive till late in each round. They don't get divine shield, before/end of round procs, poison, or machine gun death procs.
The only thing they get is a 8/8 - 24/24 buff from Baron, but without any other supporting buffs, its so easy to trash them. And that's assuming they hit their two exodia triples
1) Rat Pack is what carries Beast builds in the Mid game. It's pretty much considered better than Highmane, which you get at tier 5. It massively overpowered, but without a complete overhaul of beast tribe ratpack is required to make the build function at all. It's Like Cobalt at tier 3....card could be tier 4, even tier 5 and it would still be viable, but it supports the entire build, and without it people just don't play mechs.
2) Deathwing is bad design, and will not just be nerfed but changed I think. Also deathwing doesn't give a shit if its teir 2 or teir 3...he's gonna power level up regardless if the player knows what they are doing, so you just end up punishing general beast players.
3) Damage in general is to high and ending games too fast now, with so many more high tier viable minions, its pretty common to hit for 20+ damage. All characters need more health IMO.
4) Infested Wolf just doesn't make sense as a card in BG and should be removed and replaced with something more workable.
Beasts are the weakest tribe by far, regardless of Ratpack.
Its too RNG and is completely ruined if Rat is killed too early. The oversaturation of weak deathrattles makes it too hard to empty the board for Rat. They're reliant on two key buffs staying alive till late in each round. They don't get divine shield, before/end of round procs, poison, or machine gun death procs.
The only thing they get is a 8/8 - 24/24 buff from Baron, but without any other supporting buffs, its so easy to trash them. And that's assuming they hit their two exodia triples
If they are the weakest tribe, and they are, then why are we talking about nerfing their strongest minion, just to get at deathwing? Just go after the source.
I guess it's just my preferance but for me the meat of BGs is the back and forth between players in the late game, where players who know how to tech and organise their board once they've seen an opponents build shine, but that doesn't seem to happen so much anymore.
Hell I've hit and seen people hit over 30 damage now pretty regularly. This is especially annoying to me when RNG can determine to outcome massively if you look at just a single round in a vacuum, especially a blind round...the early cleave hit, the luck of snipes....being punished by RNG this hard by that much damage just feels bad to me. The game improves if those left in the late game actually get he chance to see what an opponent is working with and react...not just die.
Rat Pack has been begging to be moved to tier 3 for awhile now OR needs to be replaced with another minion (e.g. "Mouse Pack" 2/2 summons up to 4 1/1 beasts equal to its power") . Especially with Deathwing now it's just a mad grab in the early game to gobble them up. It isnt skill when you get hit by multiple rat spawns.
Which leads me to my next point: Spawns need to deal half damage. If you roll a 6 drop off something it should really deal 3 damage and when you have the misfortune of popping a huge rat pack last you should not be hit for 7.. You should be hit for 3 as well.
Whar do you think?
I agree rat should probably move to 3. Its time. And it makes sense its the same tier as Infected Wolf. It´s very slightly weaker when you get it, but has much MUCH higher potential.
Spawns dealing half damage has been talked about for so long now I dont think they´ll change it. They´d rather change the problem cards instead. What I do think is fair is that whatever comes out of the Shredders, Ghastcoilers etc should also deal 1 damage per unit.
Not yet. I think it's only recently an issue because of Deathwing, and people are adjusting pretty quickly. If there's an issue, it's more likely Deathwing, not Rat Pack.
Aside from Deathwing, only Daryl really uses Rat Pack well outside of a dedicated comp.
Rat to 3 seems reasonable. Don't see it occurring though. If you move Rat to 3, then you might as well remove Hyena from the game. Rat is in a really strong place right now with the new update, but I see a nerf to Deathwing or maybe removing some other heroes as more likely.
Half spawns will most likely never happen. First, tokens are already 1 damage, so they aren't going to make them 1/2 a damage. And Shredder, Coiler, etc spawns are annoying when you take 20 random BS damage on turn 8 or something, but that is just the game.
I'd think tokens should be Tier 0. If you break a Rat Pack in your last attack, you should only take damage equal to your opponent's tavern tier.
Not sure if this should also apply to collectible spawns, though, since Shredder never deals a shitton of damage and Coiler's potential is somewhat offset by its high Tier.
It's almost kind of silly that there are Rat Pack, Kindly Grandmother, and Infested Wolf. That's three minions on two tavern tiers who do pretty much the same thing. Not exactly, but close enough.
Personally, I'd cut wolf, move the rat to #3, and add maybe... Dread Raven or Fierce Monkey. Solid 3/4 body doesn't seem terrible as a stand-alone Tier 2 minion. Dread Raven would be wicked silly if it's text ever got used.
Or just make some new beast for Tier 2. A lot of the new dragons are fun; more fun than existing HS minions. Using familiar stuff was a good place to start, but having more new things would be interesting and probably better for overall gameplay.
Also, count me among those who'd prefer that various 1/1 spawn tokens would be "0-star" so no extra damage.
To compensate for +0 damage tokens, maybe golden minions should do +1 star of damage? That'd make golden tokens into essentially 1-star minions with that damage returned. I dunno. Food for thought, I guess.
I agree that Wolf and Rat Pack exhibit an unfun amount of same-y-ness.
You definitely want a saturation of similar effects for your synergies. But Wolf is SO similar that it is basically worthless at TT3, except as something if you've missed Rat Pack (or if you're AFK and you roll both Wolf and Pack Leader). And it isn't able to scale like Rat Pack.
It probably wouldn't hurt to replace Wolf with something a bit more different that Rat pack to justify it's tavern tier.
1) Rat Pack is what carries Beast builds in the Mid game. It's pretty much considered better than Highmane, which you get at tier 5. It massively overpowered, but without a complete overhaul of beast tribe ratpack is required to make the build function at all. It's Like Cobalt at tier 3....card could be tier 4, even tier 5 and it would still be viable, but it supports the entire build, and without it people just don't play mechs.
2) Deathwing is bad design, and will not just be nerfed but changed I think. Also deathwing doesn't give a shit if its teir 2 or teir 3...he's gonna power level up regardless if the player knows what they are doing, so you just end up punishing general beast players.
3) Damage in general is to high and ending games too fast now, with so many more high tier viable minions, its pretty common to hit for 20+ damage. All characters need more health IMO.
4) Infested Wolf just doesn't make sense as a card in BG and should be removed and replaced with something more workable.
Too fast? Huh? Yes, lategame damage has increased significantly, but the midgame has dropped - to the extent that I often see 7 or 8 people still in with everyone at TT5. That never used to happen, usually two dead by then, if not three or four.
Beasts are the weakest tribe by far, regardless of Ratpack.
Its too RNG and is completely ruined if Rat is killed too early. The oversaturation of weak deathrattles makes it too hard to empty the board for Rat. They're reliant on two key buffs staying alive till late in each round. They don't get divine shield, before/end of round procs, poison, or machine gun death procs.
The only thing they get is a 8/8 - 24/24 buff from Baron, but without any other supporting buffs, its so easy to trash them. And that's assuming they hit their two exodia triples
If they are the weakest tribe, and they are, then why are we talking about nerfing their strongest minion, just to get at deathwing? Just go after the source.
I guess it's just my preferance but for me the meat of BGs is the back and forth between players in the late game, where players who know how to tech and organise their board once they've seen an opponents build shine, but that doesn't seem to happen so much anymore.
Hell I've hit and seen people hit over 30 damage now pretty regularly. This is especially annoying to me when RNG can determine to outcome massively if you look at just a single round in a vacuum, especially a blind round...the early cleave hit, the luck of snipes....being punished by RNG this hard by that much damage just feels bad to me. The game improves if those left in the late game actually get he chance to see what an opponent is working with and react...not just die.
Support the idea of spawns doing less damage!
Support doing high damage by skill not by lucky deathrattle sequences!
Support longer games!