I love several different versions of zoo and have great success with Doomguard versions of zoo. I think that the choice to run doomguards vs Leeroy has a lot to do with the match ups you are facing and how you see your win condition.
As you said board control decks are great for Doomguard.
So I moved to a more burst damage focused Warlock and am doing much better. I also run double PO and Double Soul fire, so it is very common for me to have 14 burst damage by turn 7.
It's probably been said before, but does bear repeating:
In this context, your statement, an absolute, is immediately false because it's an absolute.
Zoolock most probably has more viable iterations than any top deck in the game, therefore the question of Leeroy's 'goodness' is mainly a stylistic choice based on his function in one's particular Zoolock deck.
In zoo vs zoo I think Doomguard is better. The Welps from Leeroy are not always bad for you though. I have won games using them to draw with Mortal Coil.
When I'm looking for decks to play, I think I'd rather watch known Legend players like ThijsNL, and take their advice, instead of some random dude on a forum.
Sure, it seems like you raise some good points, but surely there's a reason top players choose to include Leeroy over Doomguard.
Not this time, Hearthpwn!
Holy shit, legend 700, you must be insanely good.
I BET you created the thread waiting for a post that you could reply to with your screenshot of legend rank. I am 100% SURE
I wasn't the one who thought it mattered. I was just showing it to someone else who did. I can't please both of you unfortunately, and they were here first.
I feel the need to correct myself a little here. When I said that Leeroy Jenkins is bad in Zoo, I didn't mean to imply that Doomguard is strictly better. They each have strengths and weaknesses. The point I intended to make was that, as a burst tool, Leeroy is not especially better than, say, Reckless Rocketeer, a card which no one would even consider using despite its similar capabilities.
I don't use either one, personally. I prefer Argent Horserider because it's not dead early, you can run two copies for consistency, it's cheaper to craft, it costs less mana, and it can be used for board control as well as burst. Its only drawback is that it does less damage, but I don't think that comes close to outweighing the upsides.
I certainly lose a lot of games to Leeroy, but I've lost to Leeroy out of control Priest before. Winning a game with a card doesn't make it good.
Doomguard fits much better in Zoo's board control gameplan and does things on turns besides the one you win. And if you have any minion on board (which you almost certainly will in Zoo if the game is not lost already) you can just play your PO(s) before Doomguard anyways. It is also fairly easy to plan your turns out in advance so Doomguard only discards 1 or fewer cards, at which point it is just insane.
I find Leeroy quite good in zoo. I've used him for knocking giant minions off the board too, so he's found use for me more than just as a finisher. I think if you are struggling running Leeroy, there might be other aspects of your zoo deck that could be tidied up. But it all comes down to preference, if you don't like it, you don't like it.
A lot of it comes down to playstyle and matchups. Leeroy makes Zoo a lot more aggressive than Doomguard. You can viably hit face in the early turns and still win the game if your opponent clears your board. Against control decks that are likely to be weak in the early game but clear your board on turns 4-6, I think Leeroy is clearly superior. Against other aggressive decks, where Zoo can often win just through board dominance, Doomguard is definitely better.
I don't think it's particularly fair to judge the strength of the cards based on how often one is better than the other on a particular turn. Doomguard is a more versatile card, it's going to be useful more often than Leeroy. However, the instances when Leeroy is better - it regularly wins the game outright while having Doomguard instead would usually mean losing. Sometimes the Doomguard body will win games as-well, but a lot of the time when Doomguard is better than Leeroy - its impact isn't necessarily the difference between winning and losing.
The Leeroy trend began just before standard and now I think is the most common version of zoo. I think it makes a lot of sense now because Zoo is not as sticky as it used to be and runs a lot more 1-drops. So after a certain point in the game you just can't hold the board any longer and thus need a reliable finisher.
I tend to agree with this. With the loss of all of the sticky deathrattles in Standard, I found myself needing more reach and started running 1x Doomguard and 1x Leroy. Doomguard is great for board control and okay for burst, but the problems associated with double doomguard or having to discard PO are real. I find that going 1 and 1 is the best of both worlds.
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I love several different versions of zoo and have great success with Doomguard versions of zoo. I think that the choice to run doomguards vs Leeroy has a lot to do with the match ups you are facing and how you see your win condition.
As you said board control decks are great for Doomguard.
I prefer Leeroy Jenkins in this meta because decks feel like they are heavily teched against board flood at the moment. Warriors, Mages, Shamans and Hunters are all running board clears betweenBrawl, Ravaging Ghoul, Flamewaker, Arcane Missiles, Flamestrike, Explosive Trap, Unleash the Hounds and Lightning Storm.
So I moved to a more burst damage focused Warlock and am doing much better. I also run double PO and Double Soul fire, so it is very common for me to have 14 burst damage by turn 7.
It's probably been said before, but does bear repeating:
In this context, your statement, an absolute, is immediately false because it's an absolute.
Zoolock most probably has more viable iterations than any top deck in the game, therefore the question of Leeroy's 'goodness' is mainly a stylistic choice based on his function in one's particular Zoolock deck.
Moderator, please lock this thread.
In zoo vs zoo I think Doomguard is better. The Welps from Leeroy are not always bad for you though. I have won games using them to draw with Mortal Coil.
Leeroy is a good finisher. Doomguard is more reliable, can be used as a finisher and also when it comes to trade.
I feel the need to correct myself a little here. When I said that Leeroy Jenkins is bad in Zoo, I didn't mean to imply that Doomguard is strictly better. They each have strengths and weaknesses. The point I intended to make was that, as a burst tool, Leeroy is not especially better than, say, Reckless Rocketeer, a card which no one would even consider using despite its similar capabilities.
I don't use either one, personally. I prefer Argent Horserider because it's not dead early, you can run two copies for consistency, it's cheaper to craft, it costs less mana, and it can be used for board control as well as burst. Its only drawback is that it does less damage, but I don't think that comes close to outweighing the upsides.
I certainly lose a lot of games to Leeroy, but I've lost to Leeroy out of control Priest before. Winning a game with a card doesn't make it good.
Doomguard fits much better in Zoo's board control gameplan and does things on turns besides the one you win. And if you have any minion on board (which you almost certainly will in Zoo if the game is not lost already) you can just play your PO(s) before Doomguard anyways. It is also fairly easy to plan your turns out in advance so Doomguard only discards 1 or fewer cards, at which point it is just insane.
I find Leeroy quite good in zoo. I've used him for knocking giant minions off the board too, so he's found use for me more than just as a finisher. I think if you are struggling running Leeroy, there might be other aspects of your zoo deck that could be tidied up. But it all comes down to preference, if you don't like it, you don't like it.
A lot of it comes down to playstyle and matchups. Leeroy makes Zoo a lot more aggressive than Doomguard. You can viably hit face in the early turns and still win the game if your opponent clears your board. Against control decks that are likely to be weak in the early game but clear your board on turns 4-6, I think Leeroy is clearly superior. Against other aggressive decks, where Zoo can often win just through board dominance, Doomguard is definitely better.
I don't think it's particularly fair to judge the strength of the cards based on how often one is better than the other on a particular turn. Doomguard is a more versatile card, it's going to be useful more often than Leeroy. However, the instances when Leeroy is better - it regularly wins the game outright while having Doomguard instead would usually mean losing. Sometimes the Doomguard body will win games as-well, but a lot of the time when Doomguard is better than Leeroy - its impact isn't necessarily the difference between winning and losing.
Leeroy is a tech card for zoo. If it is good or not depends on the meta.