This thread, when Evolve Shaman is so popular and overpowered right now, is surprising at best, comical at worst. It's even stronger than the old Evolve Shaman which is saying something, thanks to that stupid weapon that you can get back over and over again.
easy countered with sticky finger or whatever that 5 mana 4/4 steal opponents weapon card is called... not even that bad unless you want to run your own type of weapon in a deck and since pretty much every day plays weapons it is a generally good tech card for again any deck that don't wanna run a specific weapon + run removal fucks them over big time... so how you manage to lose to revolve shaman is only due to no weapon tech in a weapon heavy meta and no board clears in an aggro heavy meta, so think about squeezing some of those types of techs in your deck and you will not suffer from revolve shaman
This thread, when Evolve Shaman is so popular and overpowered right now, is surprising at best, comical at worst. It's even stronger than the old Evolve Shaman which is saying something, thanks to that stupid weapon that you can get back over and over again.
easy countered with sticky finger or whatever that 5 mana 4/4 steal opponents weapon card is called... not even that bad unless you want to run your own type of weapon in a deck and since pretty much every day plays weapons it is a generally good tech card for again any deck that don't wanna run a specific weapon + run removal fucks them over big time... so how you manage to lose to revolve shaman is only due to no weapon tech in a weapon heavy meta and no board clears in an aggro heavy meta, so think about squeezing some of those types of techs in your deck and you will not suffer from revolve shaman
While you're right that Sticky Finger is indeed a counter, let's be honest here - I have literally never seen a single person include this card in their deck and it has been around for a very long time now. And i don't think I'd say the meta is Weapon-heavy enough really for it to be an auto include. While there are other weapons, there's none that make Sticky Finger good value to add. Weapon removal is fine, but the Shaman can just get it back again easily with the Pirate that returns a weapon. Now, if I was creating a deck for the sole purpose of defeating Shaman, then sure, I would probably include it. But as the mod earlier on mentioned, there's a good 9 other classes to consider with stronger decks that my deck would be weaker against.
AoE removal is also a good answer to the deck. If you have the luxury of having a lot of it (since they refill the board very quickly each time). Which I suppose is fine for Warrior, mages etc. But it does cause issues for other classes that have less removal options.
This might sound like a refusal to accept that the deck can be beaten. obviously it can. I've done it plenty of times, and have lost ot it at least as much. It's more to point out the fact that Shaman really doesn't suck and has quite a few good decks available to it right now.
I stand by my comment about Sticky Finger tho - it's a fun meme card, but that's really all it is. It's too situational to really be included in most decks.
according to tempo storm all tier 1 and tier 2 decks run weapons, what more incentives do you need to include weapon tech? and with all the tempo cards not running 1 removal spell would be foolish..
"first of all, Iv might not been clear but I am talking about standard only." Ok, maybe mention that somewhere next time to avoid the confusion.
"second of all shaman has no tier 1 deck, do you know what a tier 1 deck is? revole shaman is tier 2 and even tho sites such a tempo storm has given it a generous place in the top of tier 2 I believe they are over estimating the potential greatly and it is at best low tier 2 or high tier 3 due to its nature of being high roll." The actual T-list of replay: https://hsreplay.net/meta/?hl=de So, one is lower half of T1 the other top spot T2. Even if both were T2 it would still be far from "sucking".
"talk about the nerfs shaman have been hit harder than any other class" Again, every class has been hit hard by one or the other nerf. Raza getting the nerf to HP costing 1 killed the whole archetype for example. Not disputing nerfs can hit hard (it is essentially the purpose of a nerf).
"the overload keyword is totally over valued by blizzard" "shaman needs good taunts" Agree on those ones, the overload mechanic needs a rework for sure. And a good taunt could help the control archetypes of shaman.
"shamans finisher combos have all been nerfed" Combo in general is not supported much in standard, since it is non-interactive and can reaaaally annoy people if it is one of the top decks (looking back a freezemage, raza combo, shudder). Combo find a home in wild however - might want to take a look at this mode if combo is your playstyle of choice. Also there is Stormstrike, essentially a Rockbiter Weapon. Blizz said on the topic, they want to be careful with "spells to face" since it leads to people not interacting with anything. A minion you can kill or put a taunt in the way.
"bloodlust is worse due to lack of sticky minions" Works in totem shaman. Really resiliant boards/sticky minions. Bloodlust was a finisher for aggro decks since beta - wich you don't want people to play? Looking at your initial post there. So idk what you are on about here.
"removal of charge minions in large degree" What? How many charge minions were removed that it is "such a large degree"? A big charge minion is essentially the same argument as "big spell to face", so they need to sow them in carefully.
"so many different "shaman archtypes" that don't have synergies with eachother..." Archetypes seldom have synergies wich each other. They have synergies with themselves. I don't know what you try to say here, to be honest.
"so many bad spells and minions in shaman compared to any other class" Do you mind giving a few examples? You mean the randomness of evolutions?
"there you go an answer to every question like you wanted" Should be a given. But here you go: thanks.
according to tempo storm all tier 1 and tier 2 decks run weapons, what more incentives do you need to include weapon tech? and with all the tempo cards not running 1 removal spell would be foolish..
what deck are you playing?
I as an evolve shaman have 100% winrate vs kobold stickyfinger. My opponent just plays this shitty card to lose a turn when i already deployed a weapon and evolved my strong board, so enemy naturally loses a turn and i often just lethal him next turn
I cannot disagree with op, his post is just a bait to crybabies who don't see the main plot: it's not shaman good itself, it's only the class with 2 strong cards (cnuckles and custodian) and if you cut them with a little nerf (hoard pillager 4 -> 5/6 mana for example or cnuckles damage 4 -> 2/3) shaman will fall into same old story again.
It's just forced combo win mechanic like raza+shadowreaper anduin or shudderwock+saronite+grumble, there is nothing about just classic shaman aggro.
according to tempo storm all tier 1 and tier 2 decks run weapons, what more incentives do you need to include weapon tech? and with all the tempo cards not running 1 removal spell would be foolish..
what deck are you playing?
What I said was:
While there are other weapons, there's none that make Sticky Finger good value to add. Weapon removal is fine, but the Shaman can just get it back again easily with the Pirate that returns a weapon.
As you can see, I specifically said that weapon removal was fine (which you can use against other decks that run weapons), but that Sticky Finger was not a good option for this in terms of value and cost efficiency etc, and that using weapon destruction is easily countered by the shaman using the pirate that returns the weapon.
I cannot disagree with op, his post is just a bait to crybabies who don't see the main plot: it's not shaman good itself, it's only the class with 2 strong cards (cnuckles and custodian) and if you cut them with a little nerf (hoard pillager 4 -> 5/6 mana for example or cnuckles damage 4 -> 2/3) shaman will fall into same old story again.
It's just forced combo win mechanic like raza+shadowreaper anduin or shudderwock+saronite+grumble, there is nothing about just classic shaman aggro.
Well, firstly you should learn what the term crybaby is about - since op is doing the crying in the first place (granted or not) ^^'
Regarding your nerf argument. It holds true for literally any deck in the game. Nerfing 4/30 deck defining and or power inducing cards leads often to the downfall of said deck.
@OP Apreciate the clarification in the title *thumbs up*
This thread, when Evolve Shaman is so popular and overpowered right now, is surprising at best, comical at worst. It's even stronger than the old Evolve Shaman which is saying something, thanks to that stupid weapon that you can get back over and over again.
easy countered with sticky finger or whatever that 5 mana 4/4 steal opponents weapon card is called... not even that bad unless you want to run your own type of weapon in a deck and since pretty much every day plays weapons it is a generally good tech card for again any deck that don't wanna run a specific weapon + run removal fucks them over big time... so how you manage to lose to revolve shaman is only due to no weapon tech in a weapon heavy meta and no board clears in an aggro heavy meta, so think about squeezing some of those types of techs in your deck and you will not suffer from revolve shaman
Shaman doesn’t suck at all. Quest Shaman is nuts especially with Ysarj the Defiller. You can consistently do over 32 face damage with defiller and double battlecry. Plus Shaman has a lot of Spell generation available to them for control and have a lot of healing options.
You can tech weapon removal, but usually by the time you can destroy the weapon they've already cashed in a swing and it won't really help much. Meanwhile, the highroll potential is strong with these decks. You either snowball totems or you snowball evolved minions.
Let me tell you the story of the shaman (on coin) and his TURN 1 play.
So um, I have no dog in the fight regarding shaman as a class but . . . um . . . that whole "shaman is the most affected by nerf/HoF" thing . . .
It's not even the third most affected class.
Arguably mage's loss of Ice Block was the single most class redefining HoF ever, but in case you need more, there's Azure Drake, the single most ubiquitous mage card of all time pre-HoF. Oh, and that slight nerf to Mana Wyrm.
Druid lost naturalize, and nerfed . . . everything else. Innervate, Wild Growth, Nourish, Keeper of the Grove, Ancient of Lore, Force of Nature . . . I'm sure I'm forgetting something.
And then there's the mother of all HoF fucks, the Priest class. They basically had to remake the basic set for Priest.
I realize shaman has been nerfed a lot, but let's not lose perspective.
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A month ago the class was essentially unplayable. Shaman is in a good place atm so expect nerfs anytime. Maybe it's control Shaman you're thinking about? Whenever Galakrond kicks rocks, in a year or so, it might stand a chance.
azure drake was essential shaman draw (rip) the only class ill agree have been hurt as much as shaman is druid, due to force of nature win condition been totally removed sort of like they removed rockbiter finish from shaman aswell (rip al'akir)
all the classes have been hurt by the nerfs obviously, but not many have been snubbed as hard as shaman, this entire cycle of cards, galakrond should be good fondation for shaman but it got nerfed into the ground
I'm sorry, it's been a long time. For some reason I thought azure drake was a mage class card. My Bad.
I'll withdraw mage for consideration, but you're bonkers if you think the shaman nerfs compare to what's been altered in Druid or removed altogether in priest.
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I'm sorry, it's been a long time. For some reason I thought azure drake was a mage class card. My Bad.
I'll withdraw mage for consideration, but you're bonkers if you think the shaman nerfs compare to what's been altered in Druid or removed altogether in priest.
No, you're right about Mage (barring Azure Drake, ofc). The loss of Ice Block smashed most Mage build and archetypes and the whole class concept needed to be rediscovered over time. And I think the nerf to Mana Wyrm was more than slight in my humble opinion - it went from one of the most played and key cards in the mage arsenal to barely seeing play even in sub-modes like Arena, etc.
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easy countered with sticky finger or whatever that 5 mana 4/4 steal opponents weapon card is called... not even that bad unless you want to run your own type of weapon in a deck and since pretty much every day plays weapons it is a generally good tech card for again any deck that don't wanna run a specific weapon + run removal fucks them over big time... so how you manage to lose to revolve shaman is only due to no weapon tech in a weapon heavy meta and no board clears in an aggro heavy meta, so think about squeezing some of those types of techs in your deck and you will not suffer from revolve shaman
While you're right that Sticky Finger is indeed a counter, let's be honest here - I have literally never seen a single person include this card in their deck and it has been around for a very long time now. And i don't think I'd say the meta is Weapon-heavy enough really for it to be an auto include. While there are other weapons, there's none that make Sticky Finger good value to add. Weapon removal is fine, but the Shaman can just get it back again easily with the Pirate that returns a weapon.
Now, if I was creating a deck for the sole purpose of defeating Shaman, then sure, I would probably include it.
But as the mod earlier on mentioned, there's a good 9 other classes to consider with stronger decks that my deck would be weaker against.
AoE removal is also a good answer to the deck. If you have the luxury of having a lot of it (since they refill the board very quickly each time). Which I suppose is fine for Warrior, mages etc. But it does cause issues for other classes that have less removal options.
This might sound like a refusal to accept that the deck can be beaten. obviously it can. I've done it plenty of times, and have lost ot it at least as much. It's more to point out the fact that Shaman really doesn't suck and has quite a few good decks available to it right now.
I stand by my comment about Sticky Finger tho - it's a fun meme card, but that's really all it is. It's too situational to really be included in most decks.
according to tempo storm all tier 1 and tier 2 decks run weapons, what more incentives do you need to include weapon tech? and with all the tempo cards not running 1 removal spell would be foolish..
what deck are you playing?
"first of all, Iv might not been clear but I am talking about standard only."
Ok, maybe mention that somewhere next time to avoid the confusion.
"second of all shaman has no tier 1 deck, do you know what a tier 1 deck is? revole shaman is tier 2 and even tho sites such a tempo storm has given it a generous place in the top of tier 2 I believe they are over estimating the potential greatly and it is at best low tier 2 or high tier 3 due to its nature of being high roll."
The actual T-list of replay: https://hsreplay.net/meta/?hl=de
So, one is lower half of T1 the other top spot T2. Even if both were T2 it would still be far from "sucking".
"talk about the nerfs shaman have been hit harder than any other class"
Again, every class has been hit hard by one or the other nerf. Raza getting the nerf to HP costing 1 killed the whole archetype for example. Not disputing nerfs can hit hard (it is essentially the purpose of a nerf).
"shaman early curve have been totally shattered"
Not at all, EVIL Totem, Lightning Bloom, Sludge Slurper, Cagematch Custodian, Serpentshrine Portal are all good cards who generate value/carddraw/swings/ early removal.
"the overload keyword is totally over valued by blizzard" "shaman needs good taunts"
Agree on those ones, the overload mechanic needs a rework for sure. And a good taunt could help the control archetypes of shaman.
"shamans finisher combos have all been nerfed"
Combo in general is not supported much in standard, since it is non-interactive and can reaaaally annoy people if it is one of the top decks (looking back a freezemage, raza combo, shudder). Combo find a home in wild however - might want to take a look at this mode if combo is your playstyle of choice. Also there is Stormstrike, essentially a Rockbiter Weapon.
Blizz said on the topic, they want to be careful with "spells to face" since it leads to people not interacting with anything. A minion you can kill or put a taunt in the way.
"bloodlust is worse due to lack of sticky minions"
Works in totem shaman. Really resiliant boards/sticky minions. Bloodlust was a finisher for aggro decks since beta - wich you don't want people to play? Looking at your initial post there. So idk what you are on about here.
"removal of charge minions in large degree"
What? How many charge minions were removed that it is "such a large degree"? A big charge minion is essentially the same argument as "big spell to face", so they need to sow them in carefully.
"so many different "shaman archtypes" that don't have synergies with eachother..."
Archetypes seldom have synergies wich each other. They have synergies with themselves. I don't know what you try to say here, to be honest.
"so many bad spells and minions in shaman compared to any other class"
Do you mind giving a few examples? You mean the randomness of evolutions?
"there you go an answer to every question like you wanted"
Should be a given. But here you go: thanks.
I as an evolve shaman have 100% winrate vs kobold stickyfinger. My opponent just plays this shitty card to lose a turn when i already deployed a weapon and evolved my strong board, so enemy naturally loses a turn and i often just lethal him next turn
Shaman suck? (R)Evolve shit is what?
Draw weapon
vomit your hand
evolve
repeat.
That is what suck.
I cannot disagree with op, his post is just a bait to crybabies who don't see the main plot: it's not shaman good itself, it's only the class with 2 strong cards (cnuckles and custodian) and if you cut them with a little nerf (hoard pillager 4 -> 5/6 mana for example or cnuckles damage 4 -> 2/3) shaman will fall into same old story again.
It's just forced combo win mechanic like raza+shadowreaper anduin or shudderwock+saronite+grumble, there is nothing about just classic shaman aggro.
What I said was:
As you can see, I specifically said that weapon removal was fine (which you can use against other decks that run weapons), but that Sticky Finger was not a good option for this in terms of value and cost efficiency etc, and that using weapon destruction is easily countered by the shaman using the pirate that returns the weapon.
Well, firstly you should learn what the term crybaby is about - since op is doing the crying in the first place (granted or not) ^^'
Regarding your nerf argument. It holds true for literally any deck in the game. Nerfing 4/30 deck defining and or power inducing cards leads often to the downfall of said deck.
@OP Apreciate the clarification in the title *thumbs up*
uh oh....Shaman has been slightly successful for two weeks....better bring out the nerfs
Quest Shaman feels good right now, has definitely potential
One these guys again. Shaman is tempo, deal with it.
such salt much BM.
combo
Shaman doesn’t suck at all. Quest Shaman is nuts especially with Ysarj the Defiller. You can consistently do over 32 face damage with defiller and double battlecry. Plus Shaman has a lot of Spell generation available to them for control and have a lot of healing options.
Man, people are weird.
Shaman is bad? It really isn't.
You can tech weapon removal, but usually by the time you can destroy the weapon they've already cashed in a swing and it won't really help much. Meanwhile, the highroll potential is strong with these decks. You either snowball totems or you snowball evolved minions.
Let me tell you the story of the shaman (on coin) and his TURN 1 play.
- Coin, Lightning Bloom, Desert Hare, Revolve
Netting him a turn 1 (TURN 1) board of Ticket Master, Flametongue Totem (in the middle, yes) and Dragonmaw Overseer (that buffed his flametongue totem).
Now, I'm not saying this will happen every game, but the fact that this can happen is reason enough to believe the deck is good and shaman is fine.
/thread
So um, I have no dog in the fight regarding shaman as a class but . . . um . . . that whole "shaman is the most affected by nerf/HoF" thing . . .
It's not even the third most affected class.
Arguably mage's loss of Ice Block was the single most class redefining HoF ever, but in case you need more, there's Azure Drake, the single most ubiquitous mage card of all time pre-HoF. Oh, and that slight nerf to Mana Wyrm.
Druid lost naturalize, and nerfed . . . everything else. Innervate, Wild Growth, Nourish, Keeper of the Grove, Ancient of Lore, Force of Nature . . . I'm sure I'm forgetting something.
And then there's the mother of all HoF fucks, the Priest class. They basically had to remake the basic set for Priest.
I realize shaman has been nerfed a lot, but let's not lose perspective.
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A month ago the class was essentially unplayable. Shaman is in a good place atm so expect nerfs anytime. Maybe it's control Shaman you're thinking about? Whenever Galakrond kicks rocks, in a year or so, it might stand a chance.
azure drake was essential shaman draw (rip) the only class ill agree have been hurt as much as shaman is druid, due to force of nature win condition been totally removed sort of like they removed rockbiter finish from shaman aswell (rip al'akir)
all the classes have been hurt by the nerfs obviously, but not many have been snubbed as hard as shaman, this entire cycle of cards, galakrond should be good fondation for shaman but it got nerfed into the ground
I'm sorry, it's been a long time. For some reason I thought azure drake was a mage class card. My Bad.
I'll withdraw mage for consideration, but you're bonkers if you think the shaman nerfs compare to what's been altered in Druid or removed altogether in priest.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
No, you're right about Mage (barring Azure Drake, ofc). The loss of Ice Block smashed most Mage build and archetypes and the whole class concept needed to be rediscovered over time.
And I think the nerf to Mana Wyrm was more than slight in my humble opinion - it went from one of the most played and key cards in the mage arsenal to barely seeing play even in sub-modes like Arena, etc.