Sometimes one class is the best, sometimes that same class is the worst.
This should happen and it will happen again and again.
There are 9 classes in HS and there hasn't even been 9 expansions yet but Hunter has still been the absolute best deck in HS three metas. Please calm down and have patience.
People seem to have already forgotten Secret Hunter
What is there to forget? A tier 2 deck that never had an impact on the meta?
Except for the fact that it dominated during kharazan and was brought by a lot of people to the world championships. It actually had so much of an impact on the meta that they nerfed it. They nerfed call of the wild invade you forgot again.
People seem to have already forgotten Secret Hunter
What is there to forget? A tier 2 deck that never had an impact on the meta?
Except for the fact that it dominated during kharazan and was brought by a lot of people to the world championships. It actually had so much of an impact on the meta that they nerfed it. They nerfed call of the wild invade you forgot again.
They nerfed COTW because of mid-range Hunter not secret Hunter. COTW was nerfed during Old Gods... not Karazhan.
Hearthstone's balance team is weird, they afraid make card broken so much that they often loose common sense in the great scheme of things.
Just watch the Crushing Walls. This card is worse most of the times than Enter the Coliseum and paladins never used that card (except giant paladin, maybe).
I mean, i like new legendary card, i think it's playable and pretty good realy, but Hunter has some serious problems with removal spells. Deadly Shot is the only reasonable option (even Hunter's Mark is not that good, since you have to trade in 1 hp minion anyways).
Such removals should be vialbe for removing wide range of drops. Like even destroying 4 and 5 mana drops with this shit is a huge tempo loss. i wonder what balance team is thinking about. Did they just drinking beer in the office during playtest? No offence, but what i write above is fucking obvious for anyone who played hunter before.
We have been hearing that every expansion.People saying "be patient" and "we have not seen all the cards yet" yet everytime the hype dies down after the optimists try out the deck and find how much it sucks. I don't want to get negative about all the hopes, I personally am hoping for the best like every past expansion, but at some point you should face reality.
Man we've seen barely any cards from this expansion, can we not just hold off on the bitching for a while? Everyone makes these posts about their favourite class. Priests were trash for ages, Shamans are STILL trash after only having a brief daliance with being good via Evolve, Warrior pretty much sucks too.
PS : I'm a Druid player and I 'identify' as a Druid player, long before Jade came out.
I don't really get this post - to me it seems blizzard like hunter more now for giving them some more control options. Hunter together with rogue have always been the 2 classes I just can't play because it is either aggro, midrange or that canceous miracle.
I finally got a fun and somewhat viable Reno DK hunter.
There’s no way Call of the Wild would be nerfed if it was released today. The power level of the cards has gone up a lot since CotW was running things.
FWIW - Donais was interviewed by Kibler and Firebat when Frozen Throne was released. He mentioned that the highest win-rate class in Standard during the Un'Goro meta-game was Hunter. At the time, each of the sites which tracked the game had Hunter as the #1 class from ranks 20-6 - however, the win-rate for the class tanked by about 4% once players started the grind to legend at rank 5. They had a nice discussion about the difficulty of balancing a class which posts high win-rates among less-skilled players, and low win-rates among high-skilled players. MR decks in general are the simplest to pilot, so less-skilled players tend to do best with them, particularly when paired against other less-skilled players. MR Hunter is also quite an aggressive MR build, so it tends to be quite forgiving when a pilot plays poorly - if you've done a bit of face damage, you always open the possibility of simply top-decking lethal if you lose the board through misplays. All of this matters much less when better players are consistently playing against equally good players at ranks 5+. HSReplays tracks over one million games each day, and their data appears to be the most accurate of any tracking site - MR Hunter currently boasts the third-best win-rate in Standard, only about 1% behind Tempo Rogue. It's also third-best in Wild, though it lags far behind MR Paladin. Again, its performance drops off at high level play, but the class itself seems in a perfectly fine position, despite the community memes regarding its "obvious" weakness.
The problem is mostly hunter hero power. If hunter is ever "the best class" then by default they have more inevitable closing power than any other class. You can't taunt against hunter hero power. Your only real recourse is healing which is generally class gated.
I'm pretty confident that the hunter hero power was a mistake because of how badly it pigeon holes the class into aggressive/tempo archetypes which you don't ever really want them to be the best at because their hero power is THAT much better at closing the game than other aggressive decks.
The problem is mostly hunter hero power. If hunter is ever "the best class" then by default they have more inevitable closing power than any other class. You can't taunt against hunter hero power. Your only real recourse is healing which is generally class gated.
I'm pretty confident that the hunter hero power was a mistake because of how badly it pigeon holes the class into aggressive/tempo archetypes which you don't ever really want them to be the best at because their hero power is THAT much better at closing the game than other aggressive decks.
Same reason the power level of Warlock cards is typically a little lower than other classes - you can't give them incredible cards when their hero power lets them cycle. People keep looking at the classes as though they should be designed equally, but there's lots of considerations to make.
Hunter is the least visited forum on hearthpwn, why? Because the class is garbage. Is anyone actually a fan of Druid? Do people really identify themselves as druid players? Druid is like Hunter only with less personality, but everyone plays them because they want to win and they have the most broken cards.
This got to be the most nonsensical piece of opinion disguised as fact I read in those forums.
What makes you assume that everyone who plays Druid does because he is stronger? What makes you assume he is "hunter with less personality"? Druid, for anyone who played tabletop rpgs like Dungeons and Dragons (to which this expansion makes an homage, mind you) is based on the cool, mythical celtic priests. Druids channel the power of nature itself and transform thenselves into animals, talk with plants, make vines trap their foes. Please tell when this is Hunter with "less personality". Hunter is a dude that hunts, and if he is a cool hunter, he might walk with some animal companions. And that's it, it's nowhere as bitchin as a druid is.
But perhaps you're talking about the mechanic aspect in Hearthstone, in which case you're likely dead wrong as well. Druid is one of the most unique classes. He monopolizes ramping and, most important, posses the "choose one" mechanic.
What hunters have? Weapons? Other 4 classes have them as well. Secrets? Mages and Paladins have, and now, Rogues as well. Beast synergy? Used to have, but it isn't really that unique and now, druids also have that (which makes all sense in the world since druids are wardens of nature).
There are people, me including, who played with Druid all those years, without whinning about them not being Tier 1. I'm more of a Warlock players, but Druid is among my 4 classes that I love (Warlock, Shaman, Mage and Druid, roughly in that order). While we played Druid, Hunters dominated the ladder with cancerous decks like Undertaker Hunter or Face Hunter. People complain about the current meta, but no, current meta doesn't hold a candle to the cancer that the aformentioned hunter decks caused.
When is the last time Hunter had a tier one deck, years?
Completely opposite of what you said. Hunter is the most loved class by Blizzard.
It is the class that was one of the strongest for the overall longest time in history of HS, that also had the deck that had the highest win rate in history of HS. Also during WotOG era it had top Tier 1 deck once again (before Call of the Wild nerf cos it was too broken deck/card) and is never under Tier 3 which most classes can't say for themselves, including once again tho for a short time Tier 1 Secret Hunter at one point.
Midrange hunter with COTW was a tier 2 deck and after they nerfed that card hunter became unplayable. Secret hunter has been high tier for like 3 weeks and then it dropped really hard because it wasn't that strong, just a lot overhyped (he falled to tier 3). In the gadgetzan meta hunter was something like t4/t5, basically unplayable for 4 months. In both Ungoro and KFT hunter was good in the inital weeks of the meta thanks to his aggressive playstyle (when people are trying unrefined decks, it punishes those really hard), then it falls back to shit tier. It's something like a year and a half that hunter doesn't have a decent deck.
Everyone hates Hunter and I have no issue with it essentially not existing for the remainder of time. Zoo aggro and more board-centric mid-range decks are infinitely preferable as a means of keeping the 'greed' of control decks in check. The SMorc has been memed into Oblivion itself, so bonus.
The official take on this was something along the lines of hunter is really really op in low skill metas. You know, very low ranks on the ladder or in low mmr land in casual, this is also where a majority of the player base is. So, for a majority of the playbase hunter is op. It's just that once you're out of the trash tier (which probably everyone on these forums are because even being on this forum implies some level of emotional investment in hearthstone outside of something you pull out on your phone when waiting for the bus) hunter drops off super hard. So the question for designing hunter is, how do you make hunter strong enough to compete in the higher skilled meta, without completely blowing away the lower skilled meta with it? The answer isn't easy or fast to implement. What hunter really needs right now is some way to compete in the early game, something it lost since patches came out and the release of keleseth has made worse. But giving it that would make it go bonkers in low skilled players hands who are already winning the early game with hunter super hard.
So, it's not really as easy a question to answer as one might think tbh. Keleseth is probably the opposite of the correct answer though. Given that hunter has so many key two drops.
His hero power only benefits aggressive play. There's no point in control hunter when your hero power doesn't benefit your control deck. You might as well just play aggressive to finish off your opponent faster with that hero power. All other hero powers allow for control or just generally slower decks like the one they are trying to push now for hunter. Priest can sustain himself and his minions, mage can remove minions, warlock can maintain card advantage.
Hunter has Dinomancy and while the hero power it provides is 100 times better, you need to rely on drawing it. Until then you have a useless hero power if you are playing control. Maybe he'll get another card that somehow effects the hero power, and hopefully not something temporary like Steamwheedle Sniper.
Hunter is the least visited forum on hearthpwn, why? Because the class is garbage. Is anyone actually a fan of Druid? Do people really identify themselves as druid players? Druid is like Hunter only with less personality, but everyone plays them because they want to win and they have the most broken cards.
This got to be the most nonsensical piece of opinion disguised as fact I read in those forums.
What makes you assume that everyone who plays Druid does because he is stronger? What makes you assume he is "hunter with less personality"? Druid, for anyone who played tabletop rpgs like Dungeons and Dragons (to which this expansion makes an homage, mind you) is based on the cool, mythical celtic priests. Druids channel the power of nature itself and transform thenselves into animals, talk with plants, make vines trap their foes. Please tell when this is Hunter with "less personality". Hunter is a dude that hunts, and if he is a cool hunter, he might walk with some animal companions. And that's it, it's nowhere as bitchin as a druid is.
But perhaps you're talking about the mechanic aspect in Hearthstone, in which case you're likely dead wrong as well. Druid is one of the most unique classes. He monopolizes ramping and, most important, posses the "choose one" mechanic.
What hunters have? Weapons? Other 4 classes have them as well. Secrets? Mages and Paladins have, and now, Rogues as well. Beast synergy? Used to have, but it isn't really that unique and now, druids also have that (which makes all sense in the world since druids are wardens of nature).
There are people, me including, who played with Druid all those years, without whinning about them not being Tier 1. I'm more of a Warlock players, but Druid is among my 4 classes that I love (Warlock, Shaman, Mage and Druid, roughly in that order). While we played Druid, Hunters dominated the ladder with cancerous decks like Undertaker Hunter or Face Hunter. People complain about the current meta, but no, current meta doesn't hold a candle to the cancer that the aformentioned hunter decks caused.
Ohh spaming 6-6 7-7 8-8 and so on for one mana is very "nature" thing to do. I bet wardens of the forests just spammed the some golems on the intruders. Oh and also drawing 5 card gaining 5 armor dealing 5 damage and summoning 5-5 ghoul is very "unique". And of course ramping without a single tempo loss is unheard and very original!
The thing about hunter, is that its hero power power means it can very easily break Hearthstone if Blizzard gives it decent aggressive tools (See: Hearthstone's meta back in 2014). At the same time, the hero power also means that the class will always need to be "aggressive by default" in every deck build. Sure, midrange hunter is more of a tempo than an aggro deck, but you still rely on your hero power as that extra late game reach that you need in most games.
So basically, by creating steady shot, blizzard essentially made it necessary to walk the VERY FINE line between giving hunter good enough tools to be competitive, but not good enough to just break the game like it did in 2014. While they obviously need to do the same for other classes, hunter and rogue are arguably the most "dangerous" ones.
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Hunter will rise up, k&c enchance deathrattles beasts and provides new removal
Sometimes one class is the best, sometimes that same class is the worst.
This should happen and it will happen again and again.
There are 9 classes in HS and there hasn't even been 9 expansions yet but Hunter has still been the absolute best deck in HS three metas. Please calm down and have patience.
Hearthstone's balance team is weird, they afraid make card broken so much that they often loose common sense in the great scheme of things.
Just watch the Crushing Walls. This card is worse most of the times than Enter the Coliseum and paladins never used that card (except giant paladin, maybe).
I mean, i like new legendary card, i think it's playable and pretty good realy, but Hunter has some serious problems with removal spells. Deadly Shot is the only reasonable option (even Hunter's Mark is not that good, since you have to trade in 1 hp minion anyways).
But Multi-Shot and Crushing Walls - c'mon 2 very weak cards. The crushing walls manacost should be 5 mana AT BEST, because you just can't sit and wait until opponent will have Ragnaros, Lightlord and Tirion Fordring on the board/
Such removals should be vialbe for removing wide range of drops. Like even destroying 4 and 5 mana drops with this shit is a huge tempo loss. i wonder what balance team is thinking about. Did they just drinking beer in the office during playtest? No offence, but what i write above is fucking obvious for anyone who played hunter before.
We have been hearing that every expansion.People saying "be patient" and "we have not seen all the cards yet" yet everytime the hype dies down after the optimists try out the deck and find how much it sucks. I don't want to get negative about all the hopes, I personally am hoping for the best like every past expansion, but at some point you should face reality.
well, they shot themselves in the foot by giving them this stupid hero power :-D
Man we've seen barely any cards from this expansion, can we not just hold off on the bitching for a while? Everyone makes these posts about their favourite class. Priests were trash for ages, Shamans are STILL trash after only having a brief daliance with being good via Evolve, Warrior pretty much sucks too.
PS : I'm a Druid player and I 'identify' as a Druid player, long before Jade came out.
I don't really get this post - to me it seems blizzard like hunter more now for giving them some more control options. Hunter together with rogue have always been the 2 classes I just can't play because it is either aggro, midrange or that canceous miracle.
I finally got a fun and somewhat viable Reno DK hunter.
There’s no way Call of the Wild would be nerfed if it was released today. The power level of the cards has gone up a lot since CotW was running things.
FWIW - Donais was interviewed by Kibler and Firebat when Frozen Throne was released. He mentioned that the highest win-rate class in Standard during the Un'Goro meta-game was Hunter. At the time, each of the sites which tracked the game had Hunter as the #1 class from ranks 20-6 - however, the win-rate for the class tanked by about 4% once players started the grind to legend at rank 5. They had a nice discussion about the difficulty of balancing a class which posts high win-rates among less-skilled players, and low win-rates among high-skilled players. MR decks in general are the simplest to pilot, so less-skilled players tend to do best with them, particularly when paired against other less-skilled players. MR Hunter is also quite an aggressive MR build, so it tends to be quite forgiving when a pilot plays poorly - if you've done a bit of face damage, you always open the possibility of simply top-decking lethal if you lose the board through misplays. All of this matters much less when better players are consistently playing against equally good players at ranks 5+. HSReplays tracks over one million games each day, and their data appears to be the most accurate of any tracking site - MR Hunter currently boasts the third-best win-rate in Standard, only about 1% behind Tempo Rogue. It's also third-best in Wild, though it lags far behind MR Paladin. Again, its performance drops off at high level play, but the class itself seems in a perfectly fine position, despite the community memes regarding its "obvious" weakness.
The problem is mostly hunter hero power. If hunter is ever "the best class" then by default they have more inevitable closing power than any other class. You can't taunt against hunter hero power. Your only real recourse is healing which is generally class gated.
I'm pretty confident that the hunter hero power was a mistake because of how badly it pigeon holes the class into aggressive/tempo archetypes which you don't ever really want them to be the best at because their hero power is THAT much better at closing the game than other aggressive decks.
This got to be the most nonsensical piece of opinion disguised as fact I read in those forums.
What makes you assume that everyone who plays Druid does because he is stronger? What makes you assume he is "hunter with less personality"?
Druid, for anyone who played tabletop rpgs like Dungeons and Dragons (to which this expansion makes an homage, mind you) is based on the cool, mythical celtic priests. Druids channel the power of nature itself and transform thenselves into animals, talk with plants, make vines trap their foes. Please tell when this is Hunter with "less personality". Hunter is a dude that hunts, and if he is a cool hunter, he might walk with some animal companions. And that's it, it's nowhere as bitchin as a druid is.
But perhaps you're talking about the mechanic aspect in Hearthstone, in which case you're likely dead wrong as well. Druid is one of the most unique classes. He monopolizes ramping and, most important, posses the "choose one" mechanic.
What hunters have? Weapons? Other 4 classes have them as well. Secrets? Mages and Paladins have, and now, Rogues as well. Beast synergy? Used to have, but it isn't really that unique and now, druids also have that (which makes all sense in the world since druids are wardens of nature).
There are people, me including, who played with Druid all those years, without whinning about them not being Tier 1. I'm more of a Warlock players, but Druid is among my 4 classes that I love (Warlock, Shaman, Mage and Druid, roughly in that order). While we played Druid, Hunters dominated the ladder with cancerous decks like Undertaker Hunter or Face Hunter. People complain about the current meta, but no, current meta doesn't hold a candle to the cancer that the aformentioned hunter decks caused.
Everyone hates Hunter and I have no issue with it essentially not existing for the remainder of time. Zoo aggro and more board-centric mid-range decks are infinitely preferable as a means of keeping the 'greed' of control decks in check. The SMorc has been memed into Oblivion itself, so bonus.
The official take on this was something along the lines of hunter is really really op in low skill metas. You know, very low ranks on the ladder or in low mmr land in casual, this is also where a majority of the player base is. So, for a majority of the playbase hunter is op. It's just that once you're out of the trash tier (which probably everyone on these forums are because even being on this forum implies some level of emotional investment in hearthstone outside of something you pull out on your phone when waiting for the bus) hunter drops off super hard. So the question for designing hunter is, how do you make hunter strong enough to compete in the higher skilled meta, without completely blowing away the lower skilled meta with it? The answer isn't easy or fast to implement. What hunter really needs right now is some way to compete in the early game, something it lost since patches came out and the release of keleseth has made worse. But giving it that would make it go bonkers in low skilled players hands who are already winning the early game with hunter super hard.
So, it's not really as easy a question to answer as one might think tbh. Keleseth is probably the opposite of the correct answer though. Given that hunter has so many key two drops.
His hero power only benefits aggressive play. There's no point in control hunter when your hero power doesn't benefit your control deck. You might as well just play aggressive to finish off your opponent faster with that hero power. All other hero powers allow for control or just generally slower decks like the one they are trying to push now for hunter. Priest can sustain himself and his minions, mage can remove minions, warlock can maintain card advantage.
Hunter has Dinomancy and while the hero power it provides is 100 times better, you need to rely on drawing it. Until then you have a useless hero power if you are playing control. Maybe he'll get another card that somehow effects the hero power, and hopefully not something temporary like Steamwheedle Sniper.
The thing about hunter, is that its hero power power means it can very easily break Hearthstone if Blizzard gives it decent aggressive tools (See: Hearthstone's meta back in 2014). At the same time, the hero power also means that the class will always need to be "aggressive by default" in every deck build. Sure, midrange hunter is more of a tempo than an aggro deck, but you still rely on your hero power as that extra late game reach that you need in most games.
So basically, by creating steady shot, blizzard essentially made it necessary to walk the VERY FINE line between giving hunter good enough tools to be competitive, but not good enough to just break the game like it did in 2014. While they obviously need to do the same for other classes, hunter and rogue are arguably the most "dangerous" ones.