Should we admit that Grim Patron isnt the problem?
If you get rid of patron, you still have to deal with Frothing and Warsong, which I'll admit is what kills me more often than the Patrons if I lose to it.
You nerf patron and there will be 2 more cards that can be found to replace or enhance frothing, like Charge or Rampage and a rebuild of the deck to make it a OTK deck.
You don't need to nerf the Patron. He's just the black sheep. The Warsong Commander is the problem. Make her effect an aura (surpass 3 attack for no more charge) and Patron Warrior will be gone. and without Patron, you don't need to win before a certain turn anymore and thus less aggro is needed, slowing the meta down (unless people are stubborn and just aggro on to keep up aggro meta).
AT least I think.
If the meta is still aggro after TGT, there will likely be a nerf to make sure that TGT's attempt to slow meta down isn't a flop.
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Give a man a Murloc, and he'll eat for a day.
Give him a Murloc Knight, and people will hate him.
Patron warrior is main reason for absence of Paladins and Shamans on ladder, since they get punished for hero powering.
I wouldn't say there is an absence of Paladins on ladder. I took control paladin to legend last season, and this season I have played against more paladins than patron warriors.
Battle rage and frothing is the problem, not neccesarily Grim patron. Warsong could do with a slight rework aswell to prevent future abuse.
Heck, I got legend today with a variation with angry chicken and hobgoblin instead of grim patron and it was way easier to setup for the same amount of damage.
They will do the same they did with undertaker. Wait 2 weeks and see, realizy that they failed in card balancing with expansion and well my guess is that warsong will bite the dust and only gives charge like an aura so no more 5 attack patrons and 50 damage frothings. But still a bordclear vs 2 attack minions.
I'm sure everyone complaining and crying for nerfs to patron are legend players. Not bad rank 20 players who need to l2p. Sure.
It might be true about people protecting it, since they even didn't met Patron warrior on their rank
Nah, defenders are usually the better players.
Yes. Yes, they are. On Opposite World.
Nope this is pretty much true. Better players know how to better deal with Patron, hence, while they realize it's very good, they don't go crazy about how it needs a nerf.
I'm sure everyone complaining and crying for nerfs to patron are legend players. Not bad rank 20 players who need to l2p. Sure.
It might be true about people protecting it, since they even didn't met Patron warrior on their rank
Nah, defenders are usually the better players. People spamming repeatedly angry salty threads about nerf patron, that can only be bad players who need to blame something for their lack of skill at the game. They'll move on to complaining about something else if patron is nerfed, cause that is what bad players do.
Legend here.
It's true that low-skilled players tend to get salty and spam nerf to whatever strategy or cards they can't beat, for instance rage about all the aggro in this game or facehunters or whatever. Every single deck or strategy has flaws that can be exploited, teched against, and beat the hell out of them; although you can't have a good matchup vs. every deck, there's always a nemesis. That's the natural order. Patron Warrior is no exception to this and is indeed beatable.
BUT let's be honest here. I deeply think Patron Warrior deserves a nerf. Why? Do you remember when hunters had starving buzzard + UTH combo? Was the deck beatable? Yep. Was the deck balanced? Nope. When a combo-centered deck has ways to draw like crazy shit just happens. Battle rage is the true source of unbalance in that deck. Oh, and maybe OTK berserkers a bit, but the real problem is the insane amount of card draw which allows them to get all the combo pieces and answers and overwhelm almost any deck in a worrying % winrate.
Thanks for an intelligent reply. While I don't think patron needs to be nerfed, I agree with you that the most problematic aspect is battle rage.
Combo decks can dish out tons of burst damage, but the drawback is needing the multiple pieces to work. With how warrior can whirlwind, and damage all its minions, then battle draw out a ton of cards....this may make him able to get those combos too consistently and too reliably.
I'm sure everyone complaining and crying for nerfs to patron are legend players. Not bad rank 20 players who need to l2p. Sure.
It might be true about people protecting it, since they even didn't met Patron warrior on their rank
Nah, defenders are usually the better players. People spamming repeatedly angry salty threads about nerf patron, that can only be bad players who need to blame something for their lack of skill at the game. They'll move on to complaining about something else if patron is nerfed, cause that is what bad players do.
Legend here.
It's true that low-skilled players tend to get salty and spam nerf to whatever strategy or cards they can't beat, for instance rage about all the aggro in this game or facehunters or whatever. Every single deck or strategy has flaws that can be exploited, teched against, and beat the hell out of them; although you can't have a good matchup vs. every deck, there's always a nemesis. That's the natural order. Patron Warrior is no exception to this and is indeed beatable.
BUT let's be honest here. I deeply think Patron Warrior deserves a nerf. Why? Do you remember when hunters had starving buzzard + UTH combo? Was the deck beatable? Yep. Was the deck balanced? Nope. When a combo-centered deck has ways to draw like crazy shit just happens. Battle rage is the true source of unbalance in that deck. Oh, and maybe OTK berserkers a bit, but the real problem is the insane amount of card draw which allows them to get all the combo pieces and answers and overwhelm almost any deck in a worrying % winrate.
Thanks for an intelligent reply. While I don't think patron needs to be nerfed, I agree with you that the most problematic aspect is battle rage.
Combo decks can dish out tons of burst damage, but the drawback is needing the multiple pieces to work. With how warrior can whirlwind, and damage all its minions, then battle draw out a ton of cards....this may make him able to get those combos too consistently and too reliably.
Honestly I haven't considered this but it makes complete sense. Perhaps a cap on how much you can draw I suppose? A reasonable cap at 3? Although if they draw three I still feel like they will get what the need man times and 3 seems to be about the average though I have no empirical evidence to back this up.
I'm sure everyone complaining and crying for nerfs to patron are legend players. Not bad rank 20 players who need to l2p. Sure.
It might be true about people protecting it, since they even didn't met Patron warrior on their rank
Nah, defenders are usually the better players.
Yes. Yes, they are. On Opposite World.
Nope this is pretty much true. Better players know how to better deal with Patron, hence, while they realize it's very good, they don't go crazy about how it needs a nerf.
...and yet almost every pro-player rated Patron Warrior as the strongest deck for past...how many season?
"Better players know how to better deal with Patron" ... sure, but better players also no how to play Patron Warrior better.
Change Warsong Commander back to give played minions charge instead of the current summon minions get charge. Solves most of the problems. Though to be honest that still leaves Frothing Berserker around to eventually be overpowered in some other deck that comes along in the future. So perhaps nerf both cards for safe measures.
If you look at every previous nerf that is along the same lines (Starving Buzzard or Undertaker) the nerfs happen a few months after new cards are added once the meta has settled and they are able to determine that said deck is clearly limiting the meta to only select decks. When they feel that a deck hurt the meta but think that there is still a chance the deck might be countered some how. An example of a deck that they felt wouldn't be able to be counted was the old miracle rogue before GvG added spare parts. Clearly they think patron might still be able to be countered which is why they aren't nerfing it yet but that doesn't mean that it can't still happen.
People are incredibly impatient. It'll be probably a month after TGT release before they decide to nerf patron. The set will have a big impact on whether it gets nerfed or not. Miracle rogue existed for like 6 months in full force without nerf. They waited until AFTER naxx to decide. The waited until AFTER gvg to nerf undertaker. Seriously, stop complaining and just be patient.
Should we admit that Grim Patron isnt the problem?
If you get rid of patron, you still have to deal with Frothing and Warsong, which I'll admit is what kills me more often than the Patrons if I lose to it.
You nerf patron and there will be 2 more cards that can be found to replace or enhance frothing, like Charge or Rampage and a rebuild of the deck to make it a OTK deck.
You don't need to nerf the Patron. He's just the black sheep. The Warsong Commander is the problem. Make her effect an aura (surpass 3 attack for no more charge) and Patron Warrior will be gone. and without Patron, you don't need to win before a certain turn anymore and thus less aggro is needed, slowing the meta down (unless people are stubborn and just aggro on to keep up aggro meta).
AT least I think.
If the meta is still aggro after TGT, there will likely be a nerf to make sure that TGT's attempt to slow meta down isn't a flop.
Give a man a Murloc, and he'll eat for a day.
Give him a Murloc Knight, and people will hate him.
I wouldn't say there is an absence of Paladins on ladder. I took control paladin to legend last season, and this season I have played against more paladins than patron warriors.
Subtract aggro pallies since they dont HP at all, and suddenly there's no pallies
Piloted Shredder, Knife Juggler, Mad Scientist, Dr. Boom
Need to be removed from this game
Battle rage and frothing is the problem, not neccesarily Grim patron. Warsong could do with a slight rework aswell to prevent future abuse.
Heck, I got legend today with a variation with angry chicken and hobgoblin instead of grim patron and it was way easier to setup for the same amount of damage.
They will do the same they did with undertaker. Wait 2 weeks and see, realizy that they failed in card balancing with expansion and well my guess is that warsong will bite the dust and only gives charge like an aura so no more 5 attack patrons and 50 damage frothings. But still a bordclear vs 2 attack minions.
That's going to be about as reliable as a Priest deck.
Yes. Yes, they are. On Opposite World.
Nope this is pretty much true. Better players know how to better deal with Patron, hence, while they realize it's very good, they don't go crazy about how it needs a nerf.
Thanks for an intelligent reply. While I don't think patron needs to be nerfed, I agree with you that the most problematic aspect is battle rage.
Combo decks can dish out tons of burst damage, but the drawback is needing the multiple pieces to work. With how warrior can whirlwind, and damage all its minions, then battle draw out a ton of cards....this may make him able to get those combos too consistently and too reliably.
Honestly I haven't considered this but it makes complete sense. Perhaps a cap on how much you can draw I suppose? A reasonable cap at 3? Although if they draw three I still feel like they will get what the need man times and 3 seems to be about the average though I have no empirical evidence to back this up.
Yes, paladins are at a disadvantage vs Patron Warriors, but I literally just played vs a mid-range paladin before typing this.
Don't mean to say Patron is fine, just that there is a huge variety of decks being played right now and I don't think Patron is hurting the "meta"
Grim Patron does not need a nerf but either Frothing Berserker or Warsong Commander does.
Aside from age old argument that OTK is unhealthy for the game, Patron Warrior is too restrictive for deck variety.
How do control Priest, Paladin or Shaman ever going to deal with turn 15-ish OTK directly from hand? They cannot.
Meta changes the moment you switch your deck.
...and yet almost every pro-player rated Patron Warrior as the strongest deck for past...how many season?
"Better players know how to better deal with Patron" ... sure, but better players also no how to play Patron Warrior better.
Meta changes the moment you switch your deck.
Change Warsong Commander back to give played minions charge instead of the current summon minions get charge. Solves most of the problems. Though to be honest that still leaves Frothing Berserker around to eventually be overpowered in some other deck that comes along in the future. So perhaps nerf both cards for safe measures.
If you look at every previous nerf that is along the same lines (Starving Buzzard or Undertaker) the nerfs happen a few months after new cards are added once the meta has settled and they are able to determine that said deck is clearly limiting the meta to only select decks. When they feel that a deck hurt the meta but think that there is still a chance the deck might be countered some how. An example of a deck that they felt wouldn't be able to be counted was the old miracle rogue before GvG added spare parts. Clearly they think patron might still be able to be countered which is why they aren't nerfing it yet but that doesn't mean that it can't still happen.
The longer the game lasts the bigger the chance something out of your control happens...
People are incredibly impatient. It'll be probably a month after TGT release before they decide to nerf patron. The set will have a big impact on whether it gets nerfed or not. Miracle rogue existed for like 6 months in full force without nerf. They waited until AFTER naxx to decide. The waited until AFTER gvg to nerf undertaker. Seriously, stop complaining and just be patient.
It is fine the way it is.
"Put your face in the light!" - Tirion Fordring
look at this deck, isnt it neat,
wouldn't you think my deck is complete?
wouldn't you think this is the deck,
the deck that beats, everything?
look at these minions, charge in a row,
how many patron can one game board hold?
look at this, you'd think,
dont care, just whirlwind everything.
i got berserkers and charges a plenty,
i got card draw and weapons galore
you got a taunter?
i got execute!