Well it seems Blizzard in their infinite wisdom have chosen to ignore the fact that patron is well beyond the power levels of every other deck. In fact I would argue it is nothing more then the love child of otk hunter and miracle rogue. And yet those two concepts were destroyed with fire.
So what needs to be done about this? What changes do they need to make.
Some say change battle rage, some say change warsong commander, and some say change the stats on patrons. What are your thoughts?
We've talked about this a lot already (http://www.hearthpwn.com/search?search=patron). I think they should nerf it somehow, I don't really care how they do it. Getting kind of sick of the discussion though.
Yeah because let's talk nerfs just right before an expansion.
Yup, thank you. People need to understand that each expansion is designed with current performance and deck strengths in mind. If there is no nerf to an existing card, that means internal testing showed that the new cards will help counter existing archtypes. Remember when Auctioneer was nerfed? Or Undertaker? These were cards which were not reigned in by the new expansion, and instead needed to be directly adjusted. It's GOOD news that Patron is not being directly nerfed: the new cards will likely hit Patron really hard, then.
Rank 5 is the point when you have to actually know how to start using your deck since your opponent stops making stupid mistakes. Note that it tends to be the near legendary or legendary rank when you start seeing most of the folks who DO fight against it.
....unless you are using a control deck (Warrior or Handlock specifically) then yeah.. it'll still be garbage to you. ;)
Thus you'll either see people who've given up on patron or have actually learned to use it. There's a reason why every single professional respects the deck even if they don't use it.
As far as nerfs, Blizzard has already said that they are looking into it but want to see what TGT does first. They said the same thing with Miracle during Naxx. When Naxx failed to stop it, the nerfs came.
I'll be blunt: blizzard is going to seem very silent when you are mostly visiting a site they don't actually visit, especially if you aren't also reading interviews when they discuss about such things.
No seriously, why does everyone keep saying this deck needs a nerf? I can't even remember the last time I lost to it while using a legitimate deck.
So is that what rank 15 is like?
Rank 5 as of yesterday, still on a streak from rank 8. Fact is, Patron is garbage if you know what you're doing against it.
A bit over exaggeration, it's certainly not garbage. Though it is completely beatable. Not to mention it has some hard hard counters, which also happen to be very good.
To OP, I would argue that patron is much more difficult to play than miracle rogue or OTK hunter. Though Miracle rogue did take some forethought OTK hunter was pretty to play.
Lets wait for the meta to shake out first after this expansion, then we can be all up in arms if Patron still dominates, though I still think that patron isn't he problem as much as Warsong + Frothing
I think the BEST Nerf they can do right now, is create options for all other decks, Chillmaw is a really great example for Dragon decks.
chillmaw may be good but bad. let's say the patron finish his frostbite in your face to spawn patron, then use a whirlwind. how did you gonna kill your chillmaw. if you attack a patron you still get 1 hp and if you attack the wsc you will get 2 hp. and then it's too late and you die. But even if you can kill it, nothing garanted you will keep a dragon in you hand and loose the board advantage just to get the deathrattle
I think the BEST Nerf they can do right now, is create options for all other decks, Chillmaw is a really great example for Dragon decks.
chillmaw may be good but bad. let's say the patron finish his frostbite in your face to spawn patron, then use a whirlwind. how did you gonna kill your chillmaw. if you attack a patron you still get 1 hp and if you attack the wsc you will get 2 hp. and then it's too late and you die. But even if you can kill it, nothing garanted you will keep a dragon in you hand and loose the board advantage just to get the deathrattle
That scenario's impossible because, unless he silenced Chillmaw, Chillmaw has taunt.
I think the BEST Nerf they can do right now, is create options for all other decks, Chillmaw is a really great example for Dragon decks.
chillmaw may be good but bad. let's say the patron finish his frostbite in your face to spawn patron, then use a whirlwind. how did you gonna kill your chillmaw. if you attack a patron you still get 1 hp and if you attack the wsc you will get 2 hp. and then it's too late and you die. But even if you can kill it, nothing garanted you will keep a dragon in you hand and loose the board advantage just to get the deathrattle
Chillmaw has taunt, patron runs no silence. There is no need for me to kill him. The bigger issue is you have one chillmaw, they have two patrons, two beserkers and two warsong commanders.
No seriously, why does everyone keep saying this deck needs a nerf? I can't even remember the last time I lost to it while using a legitimate deck.
So is that what rank 15 is like?
Rank 5 as of yesterday, still on a streak from rank 8. Fact is, Patron is garbage if you know what you're doing against it.
That's really amusing. Whether or not you actually think that Patron needs a nerf (I'm still on the fence) calling it garbage is either insanity or willful ignorance. There's a reason why Patron has held the #1 ranking on liquidhearth's power rankings for such a long time (almost unanimously I might add). These rankings are done by polling top players on what they think are the best decks. I'd assume that the best players in the world know what to do against patron so they really shouldn't lose :P
Patron is one of the absolute top decks in the game - you probably happen to play one of Patron's hard counters. That doesn't make it garbage.
Here are liquidhearth's rankings for may week 1 and july week 3 (the last set of rankings). It's held rank 1, usually unanimously, the entire time.
Then they'll start running a silence. A single owl is enough, they'll draw through their whole deck anyway.
Besides, if a legendary that costs 1600 dust is the only viable counter, that's even worse as if there was none for average players.
they could tech an owl sure, though that doesn't upset me. Anything they put in to remove card draw from them or hurt their combo potential is fine. We already have hard counters to patron, and I hope we'll have more, could be a pipe dream. Also as a note, having at least one neutral counter option is far far better than having none, period, even at the cost of 1600 dust.
Then they'll start running a silence. A single owl is enough, they'll draw through their whole deck anyway.
Besides, if a legendary that costs 1600 dust is the only viable counter, that's even worse as if there was none for average players.
Silence is a very awkward option for patron, as the entire deck is meant to synergize with itself.
The problem patron has is that it gets to ignore the board a lot of the times. Inspire, as a mechanic, solves that handily. Patron is going to have lots of trouble dealing with strong inspire mechanics, as well as the new and improved midrange shaman, among other things.
Blizzard is solving the problem of decks that ignore the board by adding more and more minions that they shouldn't ignore, rather than the naxx solution to control of add minions that can't be killed.
But they're running Execute, right? Chillmaw is just one card. Sure, he may clear few Patrons got from one card, but it won't protect you from double Frothing for 50 dmg or so. And it's still not reliable enough
Exactly the issue I have. I rarely die to patron himself. It's almost always a frothing combo that gets me.
But they're running Execute, right? Chillmaw is just one card. Sure, he may clear few Patrons got from one card, but it won't protect you from double Frothing for 50 dmg or so. And it's still not reliable enough
Exactly the issue I have. I rarely die to patron himself. It's almost always a frothing combo that gets me.
Yup, frothing is what is dumb. My proposed nerf is to change it to 3/2 instead of 2/4. That way it can only get one WW effect. Or make it like armorsmith and only get buffed from friendly unit hits, not all unit hits. That way you don't need to keep all your minions off the board against Patron anymore (only the ones below 3 attack!).
I was saying from a design Perspective Chillmaw and Twilight Guardian ARE providing deck options against Patrons, similar to how Lil' Exorcist and Scarlet Purifier were card options AGAINST Deathrattles(its effectiveness is left questionable)
and even then, forcing a Patron Warrior to dilute his deck with a silence or two isn't necessarily a bad thing is it?
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Well it seems Blizzard in their infinite wisdom have chosen to ignore the fact that patron is well beyond the power levels of every other deck. In fact I would argue it is nothing more then the love child of otk hunter and miracle rogue. And yet those two concepts were destroyed with fire.
So what needs to be done about this? What changes do they need to make.
Some say change battle rage, some say change warsong commander, and some say change the stats on patrons. What are your thoughts?
We've talked about this a lot already (http://www.hearthpwn.com/search?search=patron). I think they should nerf it somehow, I don't really care how they do it. Getting kind of sick of the discussion though.
Have a great deck that's really, really cheap? Help the new players out
I think the BEST Nerf they can do right now, is create options for all other decks, Chillmaw is a really great example for Dragon decks.
No seriously, why does everyone keep saying this deck needs a nerf? I can't even remember the last time I lost to it while using a legitimate deck.
Yup, thank you. People need to understand that each expansion is designed with current performance and deck strengths in mind. If there is no nerf to an existing card, that means internal testing showed that the new cards will help counter existing archtypes. Remember when Auctioneer was nerfed? Or Undertaker? These were cards which were not reigned in by the new expansion, and instead needed to be directly adjusted. It's GOOD news that Patron is not being directly nerfed: the new cards will likely hit Patron really hard, then.
Rank 5 as of yesterday, still on a streak from rank 8. Fact is, Patron is garbage if you know what you're doing against it.
Rank 5 is the point when you have to actually know how to start using your deck since your opponent stops making stupid mistakes. Note that it tends to be the near legendary or legendary rank when you start seeing most of the folks who DO fight against it.
....unless you are using a control deck (Warrior or Handlock specifically) then yeah.. it'll still be garbage to you. ;)
Thus you'll either see people who've given up on patron or have actually learned to use it. There's a reason why every single professional respects the deck even if they don't use it.
As far as nerfs, Blizzard has already said that they are looking into it but want to see what TGT does first. They said the same thing with Miracle during Naxx. When Naxx failed to stop it, the nerfs came.
I'll be blunt: blizzard is going to seem very silent when you are mostly visiting a site they don't actually visit, especially if you aren't also reading interviews when they discuss about such things.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
A bit over exaggeration, it's certainly not garbage. Though it is completely beatable. Not to mention it has some hard hard counters, which also happen to be very good.
To OP, I would argue that patron is much more difficult to play than miracle rogue or OTK hunter. Though Miracle rogue did take some forethought OTK hunter was pretty to play.
Lets wait for the meta to shake out first after this expansion, then we can be all up in arms if Patron still dominates, though I still think that patron isn't he problem as much as Warsong + Frothing
chillmaw may be good but bad. let's say the patron finish his frostbite in your face to spawn patron, then use a whirlwind. how did you gonna kill your chillmaw. if you attack a patron you still get 1 hp and if you attack the wsc you will get 2 hp. and then it's too late and you die. But even if you can kill it, nothing garanted you will keep a dragon in you hand and loose the board advantage just to get the deathrattle
You'r whining about waiting for an update. That cute, let's talk about half life 3
I think their solution is Chillmaw for the problem. We will see how it works, I have my doubts though.
That scenario's impossible because, unless he silenced Chillmaw, Chillmaw has taunt.
Chillmaw has taunt, patron runs no silence. There is no need for me to kill him. The bigger issue is you have one chillmaw, they have two patrons, two beserkers and two warsong commanders.
That's really amusing. Whether or not you actually think that Patron needs a nerf (I'm still on the fence) calling it garbage is either insanity or willful ignorance. There's a reason why Patron has held the #1 ranking on liquidhearth's power rankings for such a long time (almost unanimously I might add). These rankings are done by polling top players on what they think are the best decks. I'd assume that the best players in the world know what to do against patron so they really shouldn't lose :P
Patron is one of the absolute top decks in the game - you probably happen to play one of Patron's hard counters. That doesn't make it garbage.
Here are liquidhearth's rankings for may week 1 and july week 3 (the last set of rankings). It's held rank 1, usually unanimously, the entire time.
http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/484971-pr-may-2015-week-1-a-wild-matchup-chart-appears
http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/hearthstone/491059-power-ranks-july-week-3-all-about-the-beats
they could tech an owl sure, though that doesn't upset me. Anything they put in to remove card draw from them or hurt their combo potential is fine. We already have hard counters to patron, and I hope we'll have more, could be a pipe dream. Also as a note, having at least one neutral counter option is far far better than having none, period, even at the cost of 1600 dust.
Dang im so stupid. sorry i forget the taunt like 2 sec after he die in the stream
You'r whining about waiting for an update. That cute, let's talk about half life 3
Silence is a very awkward option for patron, as the entire deck is meant to synergize with itself.
The problem patron has is that it gets to ignore the board a lot of the times. Inspire, as a mechanic, solves that handily. Patron is going to have lots of trouble dealing with strong inspire mechanics, as well as the new and improved midrange shaman, among other things.
Blizzard is solving the problem of decks that ignore the board by adding more and more minions that they shouldn't ignore, rather than the naxx solution to control of add minions that can't be killed.
Exactly the issue I have. I rarely die to patron himself. It's almost always a frothing combo that gets me.
Chillmaw is a band-aid on a gaping wound, much like Lil'Exorcist was. Deathrattles were not the problem, it was Undertaker.
Patrons are not the problem, it's Frothing. Chillmaw will do nothing to stop the Frothing OTK.
Yup, frothing is what is dumb. My proposed nerf is to change it to 3/2 instead of 2/4. That way it can only get one WW effect. Or make it like armorsmith and only get buffed from friendly unit hits, not all unit hits. That way you don't need to keep all your minions off the board against Patron anymore (only the ones below 3 attack!).
I was saying from a design Perspective Chillmaw and Twilight Guardian ARE providing deck options against Patrons, similar to how Lil' Exorcist and Scarlet Purifier were card options AGAINST Deathrattles(its effectiveness is left questionable)
and even then, forcing a Patron Warrior to dilute his deck with a silence or two isn't necessarily a bad thing is it?