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It's why a lot of people run both, they're thinning their deck out to get the right cards.
With Novice Engineer, you effectively have 28 cards.
With both, you effectively have 26 cards. Sort of.
One of the main reasons why Novice is run over Loot Hoarder is the guaranteed free card on the turn it's played, you won't be able to do anything with Looter until it dies. Unless you spend mana on killing it, it's two mana for what's effectively a next-turn draw.
An early game novice cycles your deck and gives a chance to get what you need, it's giving you a 1/2 (now 1/1) in exchange for no card disadvantage. An early game looter gives you this very same advantage but with a bit of board control, you won't have the mana to cast much more aside from him.
It's the late game where novice edges over looter, you draw novice and can spend two mana to get another card which could potentially be a solution to something you're facing. Are you against aggro? Do you need AoE? You'll be able to afford most mana costs if you draw it through Novice. Looter provides no such answers unless you're something like a mage and ping it. Problem is, you're paying four mana in this case which can be pretty dire.
While the 1/1 body on novice will certainly inconvenience many decks due to the fact it won't be able to trade for even more value, it's still a valuable card and won't be removed completely from play. I'm imagining some decks will replace it but most decks are built with novice at it's core (unless they've got more draw).
This seemed fitting:
http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/party?iso=20140114T05&p0=137&fg1=176db3&fg2=ea0606&msg=Pyroblast nerfed&csz=1
Getting a good amount of free dust this time around :P
Glad I don't disenchant cards right away, lol. Not that I have much to do with my gold/dust, but free stuff is nice ~_~
Most changes seem a little awkward, but as an arena player I'm fine with it. Helps my playstyle a little, which is always nice.
No Ragnaros nerf.
No Paladin nerf.
Many luls were had that day.
If you think of card draw as having less cards in your deck and therefor not a great thing then I really don't know how to explain TCG/CCGs in a way you'll understand. Card draw is generally looked on to be the best universal ability in any card game for obvious reason, in hearthstone there's no hard mill so it's even better. I understand most of these changes. Argent defender is probably the exception as it would have been better served going to 3/2 than 2/3. The sylvvy change was for complainers, it's not as strong a card as people think its thoroughly a solid "good" card on average bouncing between great and shite depending on the game. The nerf only really serves as a deterrent to it being playing in every single deck without nerfing the card into the ground.
Nah, I wasn't bashing the card draw mechanic, I'm bashing the creature that comes with the card draw mechanic.
Thanks FOO(The Banner God)!
Mostly good changes. Pyro nerf on top of all the freeze nerfs is too much. Might as well bring Blizzard back to 5 mana. There's not much reason to play it at 6 mana when there's a 7 mana Flamestrike. Especially now when you can't Pyro at turn 8.
Novice Engineer is still good at what it was taken for - cycling the deck to draw combo cards.
Defender of Argus is still very good, but the nerf is welcome.
Thank god for the imp nerf! It'll finally be possible to kill something with Holy Nova!
You hit the nail on the head. There's not a lot of cards and that is exactly why the uber balancing is going on now. You have to try and balance baseline mechanics and generic keywords first before you can through out a set of 400 card with 3-4 keywords. You balance out the initial stuff like taunt(which is basically where it needs to be if not a little weak) ETB/LTB mechanics and card draw. Get those where they need to be and then you can go ahead and introduce new card sets with more powerful keywords. It's how cards games work, they didn't always work that way, and it seems like people are hating on this game for learning from it's forebearers mistakes and avoiding the bulk of a new games growing pains in a BETA.
I like most of the changes overall. The novice engineer one was odd. The UTH change will be fun hunters were already in a decent place this helps. The imp change I think is decent it has some intiguing uses if you bother to aim it. As long as people keep cleaning out their side of the board to kill sylvanas she is still value at 6. Glad to see the OTKs go out the window the warsong is still good, a midgame warrior deck is probably going to be very lethal. The pyro change is probably not going to be that noticeable it just gives decks another 2 turns to either win or die.
^ That
I like pretty much all the changes they decided to make. I was surprised by a few of them, charge in particular, but it made sense after I figured out it stops the alexhowl OTK combo. Really popular cards were that way for a reason, they were too good, or better than the others. They were overpowered and needed a bit of balancing. I think we will see a bit more variety now which is good.
Am actually also surprised there was this few changes. There were quite a few more cards that needed tweeks *nerfs and buffs* and hopefully they get them in the future.
I'm not mad at equality consecration, it's actually pretty balanced. I play paladin, I'm just realistic. You should try it some time.
That comparison is completely bogus, because Pyro does 4 points more damage in a single card. If you play 2 fireballs you'd do 2 more points than a single pyro - but it would take 2 cards! And that would be all the fireball cards in your deck used up. With Pyro you could still have another one.
You are being overly simplistic in your approach to card valuation. It's clear that a Pyro is better than a fireball at endgame, for the reasons I already described.
Furthermore, you once again came up with a bogus comparison where you compared spells with minions. The two are clearly not the same, since minions have continued board presence and spells do not, and 5 leper gnomes would obviously be a lot better than one boulderfist ogre.
When debating, attempt to come up with points that are less specious...
Well it would appear that the designers at Blizzard - whom I consider to be experts on the matter - do indeed agree. The opinion of yourself - not an acclaimed expert on the matter, just like I am not an acclaimed expert - is of no real importance to me, of course. :)
Incidentally, you appear to have missed my point that spells and minions are very different. Tisk.
But even if it was possible to compare like that (it isn't), the comparison is still specious because 5 Leper gnomes have a combined attack strength of 10 while an Ogre has only 6, AND they have a combined deathrattle effect of 10 damage, so we're comparing 20 damage with 6 damage. Furthermore, to get rid of 5 leper gnomes without AoE effects would take a lot more effort than a single Hex or suchlike needed for a single Ogre.
Yes, good comparison. :)
BTW, am I arrogant because I dare to disagree with you? Have you ever heard of an Ad hominem attack? If not, I suggest you go and look it up, because it doesn't do much to help you to make a convincing point.
@EYEamK1ra Well, you seem to becoming a little overexcited, so I think we should just agree to differ. :)
@EYEamK1ra:
Good, I'm glad to hear it. :)
(In the meantime, if anyone else is interested, I did outline my reasoning in my very first post on the matter.)
Oh this sounds OP. Tell me more!
Innervate's flaw is that you're speeding up the game at the cost of card advantage. Using two innervates and dropping an early Sunwalker is brutal but it empties your hand quickly for an advantage which they might have something to respond with, it only screws over aggro because they keep minimal removal and disregards card advantage by going for the face.
Druids cause a lot of problems but I wouldn't say innervate is one of the reasons why, though perhaps it's because I'm a fan of hard removal and keep it around me whenever possible.
Druids cause a lot of problems because of the diversity of their abilities, both cards (Druid of the Claw, Ancient of Lore, etc.) and their power (attack ability (at any target, like the Mage and Rogue but unlike the Hunter) AND armor.) So you have a greater level of response to any one situation than most other classes. Starfall can be a beef remover for 5 damage or a horde remover for 2 across the board. A smart player who knows his deck will gravitate toward Druids largely because they DON'T rely on combos like Molten Giant or Pyroblast. With the limited amount of draw currently in the game (and which Druids have some of the best off (Ancient of Lore again)), relying on a one-turn kill combo is usually a fad until it's sorted out by the meta. Druids can already respond to that.
This ties into the earlier discussion about card costs and relative value. You can't make a direct damage/mana comparison because the availability of cards is key. The ability to remove a third of your opponent's life with a single card is far more valuable than the ability to remove 2/5 with two because you only need 1 of the Pyros in your deck to do so, whereas you need both Fireballs to make that happen. The odds of having both are actually less than that of having 1 Pyro. What they're trying to do with the nerf is keep Mages in the game rather than simply stalling until they can pull off the game-winning move. In other words, the idea is to make deck construction something other than "just filler" plus the "combo" cards (I say "combo" because the ability to simply do 10 damage isn't much of a combo, like Warsong/Molten/Alex/Gorehowl/Youthful/whatever.) Most decks are not "just filler". It's when decks have that capability that the game has a problem.
The counter-example was back in the Urza days of M:TG when the entire deck was basically nothing but combo. Just like Mage or Warrior OTK decks, they didn't bother to interact with their opponents. They couldn't be killed fast enough to keep the combo from going off (Tolarian Academy, Time Spiral, Stroke of Genius) so they'd basically ignore you and just put their cards together and go off. That's not an interactive game. It's solitaire with someone watching. What makes it even worse is that the key element in Warrior and Warlock decks, the Molten Giant, is enabled by the player doing nothing but taking damage. I still think that was the card that could have been addressed better than going through all the gyrations with Charge and Warsong Commander. Any card/ability that treats life as a potential resource is almost always going to be powerful (Necropotence, Warlock's hero power) because life means nothing until you're out of it. Sea Giant depends on your opponent to play minions to make it efficient. If he doesn't, you do and simply win. Mountain Giant depends on your willingness to keep cards in hand to make it efficient. If you don't play cards, you're hampering your own ability to win. Molten Giant only requires that your opponent is trying to win the game. There's no strategic thinking involved except inasmuch as you have to get it down and charging before you're completely out of life (this is where Warriors really benefit, since a lot of their removal is made up of weapons.)
Card value is about more than mana cost and damage dealt. It's about probability and the ability to shade it in your favor. Thus, the continued value of the deck-thinning Novice Engineer, even at 1 life. Most of these nerfs were logical to one degree or another. The only one I can't understand is Defender of Argus, since making it a 2/3 does precisely nothing to the two +1/+1 Taunts it just created. Probably would have been better to make it a 3/2 like Shattered Sun Cleric, since then things like Holy Nova, Blizzard, and Starfall could take it out.