Also, being a legendary isn't supposed to make minions better. Legendaries are supposed to be especially high risk, flashy, or situational. There are many weak/mediocre/strong legendaries and there are many weak/mediocre/strong commons, epics and rares.
According to who? Did blizzard say that? Because if so that's not how it is in the game. Sylvanas is a great card sure, but for a legendary she is only average. If you look at say nat pagle, he will often pan out to be almost identical to a novice engineer, but he has the potential to be more than that, just as with sylvanas and her potential to be amazing or gruul or geddon or thalnos. Most legendaries are the same as a good common card, which will sometimes be better. There are only a few legendaries that can situationally be worse (milhouse, greenskin, vancleef, the beast) and there are several that are just always better (tirion, ysera, onyxia, jaraxxus, cairne, cenarius). Your idea of what legendaries are "supposed to be" doesn't mesh with reality.
Tirion is not always better. Compare him to, say, Iron bark protector. While he will generally be much better than an ironbark, he gets punished HARD by a silence. Turning Tirion into a 6-6 for 8 is a massive tempo swing. Onyxia gets punished by a minor AOE because she locks you ENTIRE turn to play and isn't hard to remove, Cairne gets punished hard by silence as well, jaraxxus is nearly impossible to use when you are behind and Cenarius/Ysera locks your entire turn for a questionable value minion. I think it's very clear that Blizzard tried to make all the legendaries balanced, while giving them the potential to be huge.
Rag, Sylvanas, Tinkmaster and Black Knight are the only legendaries that stand out so much. These ones are the "problem" legendaries that make the game unfun for light spenders. All of the other legendaries are fairly balanced or even underpowered (because they all can be punished).
Also, you really ought to look at all the cards. There is no card in the entire game that is not situationally better than any other card.
As for Sylvanas vs Truesilver: If you can't see that Weapons and minions aren't comparable, I'm not even going to bother explaining it any further lol.
Any of those cards can be removed by standard stuff like Hex, Poly, and Assassinate, too. Sylvanus really isn't that devastating. You just have to know how to work around her. The Black Knight is completely situational. Otherwise, he's a severely overcosted Yeti. Tinkmaster is just like having an extra Poly, except half the time he could make the situation almost as bad (Tink the Argent Commander? Oh, now he's a 5/5.) And, yes, Tirion is almost always better provided your opponent doesn't have an answer. But that's the point. If they have an answer, no legendary is OP. It's often just a question of proper play. Any number of people have beaten decks stuffed with legendaries with decks made up of nothing but commons and average rares. It's not that hard.
Any of those cards can be removed by standard stuff like Hex, Poly, and Assassinate, too. Sylvanus really isn't that devastating. You just have to know how to work around her. The Black Knight is completely situational. Otherwise, he's a severely overcosted Yeti. Tinkmaster is just like having an extra Poly, except half the time he could make the situation almost as bad (Tink the Argent Commander? Oh, now he's a 5/5.) And, yes, Tirion is almost always better provided your opponent doesn't have an answer. But that's the point. If they have an answer, no legendary is OP. It's often just a question of proper play. Any number of people have beaten decks stuffed with legendaries with decks made up of nothing but commons and average rares. It's not that hard.
*facepalm* You don't say? Really? I never considered that you COULD beat any of those cards! >.>
Yes, of course you CAN beat any of those cards, but does it make it balanced? No. There is no card in the entire game that lacks a counter. If there were, this game would be complete garbage. Ovepowered=|unbeatable. The problem is what happens if you DON'T have a silence against Sylvanas. (even if you do have silence, it's not like it neutralizes her. she's still a 5-5 for 5.)
And what kind of idiot uses tinkmaster on an argent commander? As for black knight, it isn't that it's OP, it's that it's unfair. If you play black knight when your opponent has a huge taunt on the board, the value and tempo swing you get because of it often just wins you the game. Even though you get slightly punished when you are facing an aggro opponent, it doesn't make up for it. If you are running a late game deck, and your opponent has black knight, there is no counterplay. You are just going to lose a big taunt minion for the whopping price of 2 mana. Tinkmaster is another card just like it, while it isn't great against aggro decks, it punishes late game decks. Both of those cards regularly lose me the entire game because I like slow decks. And there's nothing I can do about it other than playing aggro, which is boring as hell.
I play nothing but slow/control decks and I've been in the beta since July. I've never lost to a Sylvanus or a Black Knight. It's. Not. That. Difficult. And no amount of caterwauling here is going to change that. Other people can deal with those cards. You can, too.
I play nothing but slow/control decks and I've been in the beta since July. I've never lost to a Sylvanus or a Black Knight. It's. Not. That. Difficult. And no amount of caterwauling here is going to change that. Other people can deal with those cards. You can, too.
Oh, then tell me, how am I supposed to counter black knight? Just don't run big taunts? [sarcasm]Seems reasonable.[/sarcasm]
Also, though I appreciate your vocabulary (even despite you using the word incorrectly), can you all stop with the insults? It's impossible to make any sort of criticism for ANYTHING without being called a whiner here.
Not to mention, the "caterwauling" by the community DID lead to a nerf on Sylvanas, so I beg to differ.
Any of those cards can be removed by standard stuff like Hex, Poly, and Assassinate, too. Sylvanus really isn't that devastating. You just have to know how to work around her.
Yeah, Hex, Poly and Assassinate are common cards in every deck - every Priest and Paladin runs those, am I right? Besides, Assassinate still triggers the deathrattle.
She was being played in every single deck because she was so overpowered
No she was played in every deck because she's versatile and an easy two-for-one. It's not like Sylv is the only card that is a two-for-one. She's like a truesilver which can occasionally do better than that, but at 6 mana vs 4 that's just not good enough for a legendary.
Actually she was often a 3 for 1. Trades with one, kills a second one (the minion that you steal), and summons a new minion for you (the minion you stole). I do think the nerf was warranted.
I think the defender of argus change doesn't actually change much. I was also expecting a minor nerf to harvest golem. Possibly Deathrattle: Summon a 1/1. Down from a 2/1.
Novice engineer nerf was also warranted. Unlike the the loot hoarder, her card draw is instant, and can't be silenced. And card draw is very important to the game. For example, sometimes the only card that can save you is a Swipe or something like this. If you have 2 swipes in your deck the only way to improve your odds of drawing that card is by using a novice, or some other type of card draw. Loot hoarder won't help you because you have to wait a turn, and you can't just replace the novice in your deck for another swipe because you already have 2. That is why the card will continue to be good.
Pyroblast was warranted. Minions and spells can't be compared. Charge minions are noticeably weaker for being able to attack the same turn they are played. Other minions you have a turn to deal with, either by trading, or using removal. Spells have no post-counter. Your only chance is to predict them. Example, Boulderfist ogre is played. Now it is your turn. You can use now polymorph it. Now compare to Pyroblast. You could use a Holy Light, but wait the damage killed you so you can't. Your only chance is to predict it, and play Holy Light a turn sooner, which could also be the worse play in the case that they don't have pyroblast. You never know because you have to predict the play.
Patch didn't do much to fix mages. They will still be hyper-aggressive in 90% of the decks.
Hyper aggressive mages will now die before they can Pyroblast.
Yeah, no. Hyper aggro mages don't really rely on pyro. There was a common aggro mage that could either not run pyro, or only one pyro (in case they ran out of steam.) The pyro nerf is mostly a nail in the coffin of the frozen giants mage, not aggro mage.
Also, though I appreciate your vocabulary (even despite you using the word incorrectly), can you all stop with the insults? It's impossible to make any sort of criticism for ANYTHING without being called a whiner here.
Not to mention, the "caterwauling" by the community DID lead to a nerf on Sylvanas, so I beg to differ.
Caterwaul: 1. To cry as cats in heat; to make a harsh, offensive noise. 2. To have a noisy argument, as between cats.
You're basically doing nothing here but bitching about cards you don't like and presumably don't own. Multiple people have informed you that they're really not all that and, no, despite your assertions, I seriously doubt that Blizzard "nerfed" (by one whole mana) Sylvanus because of your or others' bitching. They did it because the card is played in an overwhelming number of decks in the same way that Novice Engineer is (I don't recall hearing about the ominous threat of Novice Engineer overtaking the game.) Everyone played it because it's an efficient card and a very value-driven card. People were bitching about Argus Defender being OP since October and nothing was done to that card... until it started showing up in every deck type and class out there. That's the key. Not your willingness to spam fora.
Sylvanus is a really good card. That doesn't mean it's an overpowered card or something you should begin wailing about as soon as your opponent plays it. I play it and people have gotten around it. My opponents play it and I do the same. Or sometimes we don't and we lose, but not because we were hit six times by a 5/5 that we were afraid to play a creature against for fear of losing it (like Mind Control) or not because our opponent blasted us for a third of our life total and there was nothing we could do to prevent it (like Pyroblast.)
And if your opponent plays a Knight and destroys your Ancient of War, do what I do: Starfire or Starfall it. You'll even get card advantage off the first. Or play Bite and hero power and take it out for no damage to yourself. Or Wrath and hit it with your other Taunter (You do have more than one creature in play, right?) And next turn play the other Ancient in your deck. Or any of a hundred other ways to deal with it across 8 other classes. These things happen. Taunters are pretty much there to be destroyed in the first place. It's part of the game.
Patch didn't do much to fix mages. They will still be hyper-aggressive in 90% of the decks.
Hyper aggressive mages will now die before they can Pyroblast.
Yeah, no. Hyper aggro mages don't really rely on pyro. There was a common aggro mage that could either not run pyro, or only one pyro (in case they ran out of steam.) The pyro nerf is mostly a nail in the coffin of the frozen giants mage, not aggro mage.
A basic, non-pyro aggro mage sounds pretty easy to counter if you ask me. Perhaps you're just terrible if you find any mage deck that much of a challenge?
Also, though I appreciate your vocabulary (even despite you using the word incorrectly), can you all stop with the insults? It's impossible to make any sort of criticism for ANYTHING without being called a whiner here.
Not to mention, the "caterwauling" by the community DID lead to a nerf on Sylvanas, so I beg to differ.
Caterwaul: 1. To cry as cats in heat; to make a harsh, offensive noise. 2. To have a noisy argument, as between cats.
Thanks for posting the definition to show that you did indeed misuse the word. Please explain how any of what I said fits into either of those definitions.
What I'm getting from the rest of your post is that you equate all criticism to "bitching." If I recall correctly, this game is in a beta where the encourage you to give feedback. This is also a FORUM, where people DISCUSS things. If you don't want to see people discussing things, you made a very poor choice of website. People like you are really getting on my nerves, I'm sick and tired of you and others like you shrugging off every critique of the game as "whining."
As for you black knight examples, you do realize that you either lose that trade by either 7 mana and a card, or 6 mana and two cards, right? Taunts are not there to be destroyed they are there to soak up damage instead of key targets for your opponent (whether that be a minion or your face).
For the third time, this isn't a matter of "Can you beat it" it's a matter of "Is it too strong." Cards like Sylvanas (pre-nerf) and black knight are simply too hard to deal with, and can win games by themselves. Playing against a deck with cards like this when you don't have them puts you at a significant disadvantage. Please stop dealing in absolutes and consider the difference between "unbeatable" and "unbalanced" or "unfair."
Patch didn't do much to fix mages. They will still be hyper-aggressive in 90% of the decks.
Hyper aggressive mages will now die before they can Pyroblast.
Yeah, no. Hyper aggro mages don't really rely on pyro. There was a common aggro mage that could either not run pyro, or only one pyro (in case they ran out of steam.) The pyro nerf is mostly a nail in the coffin of the frozen giants mage, not aggro mage.
A basic, non-pyro aggro mage sounds pretty easy to counter if you ask me. Perhaps you're just terrible if you find any mage deck that much of a challenge?
I never said I found it a big challenge to deal with, I just said that aggro mage doesn't rely on it
Also, though I appreciate your vocabulary (even despite you using the word incorrectly), can you all stop with the insults? It's impossible to make any sort of criticism for ANYTHING without being called a whiner here.
Not to mention, the "caterwauling" by the community DID lead to a nerf on Sylvanas, so I beg to differ.
Caterwaul: 1. To cry as cats in heat; to make a harsh, offensive noise. 2. To have a noisy argument, as between cats.
Thanks for posting the definition to show that you did indeed misuse the word. Please explain how any of what I said fits into either of those definitions.
As for Sylvanas vs Truesilver: If you can't see that Weapons and minions aren't comparable, I'm not even going to bother explaining it any further lol.
ALL cards are comparable. The fact that you can't compare them is your problem.
She was being played in every single deck because she was so overpowered
No she was played in every deck because she's versatile and an easy two-for-one. It's not like Sylv is the only card that is a two-for-one. She's like a truesilver which can occasionally do better than that, but at 6 mana vs 4 that's just not good enough for a legendary.
Actually she was often a 3 for 1. Trades with one, kills a second one (the minion that you steal), and summons a new minion for you (the minion you stole). I do think the nerf was warranted.
If she is often a 3 for 1, you're doing it wrong. For her to 3 for 1 she has to be played onto a board where either there are 2 minions and neither of them has less than 5 damage, or more than 2 minions and you can't silence or remove her somehow and you she isn't next to any other minions you can sac your minions into without losing value. Sure, those things can happen, but to say they often happen is ridiculous. And when those things do happen, it's probably late game so you should either be able to deal with it easier or just ignore sylv and kill the opponent.
Not quite sure why Blizzard is getting cold feet with adding new cards or buffing weaker cards in closed beta.
This whole "its too risky to buff cards at this stage of production" is a total cop out. No SHIT its risky, but that doesn't mean it isn't called-for.
If the production team is having so much trouble getting out of their comfort zones to make quality of life changes now, I don't see this game getting very far past open beta when patches will have even more impact on a larger player base.
tl;dr Back yourself into a cycle of stale nerfs and "reworks", suffer dwindling approval.
Not quite sure why Blizzard is getting cold feet with adding new cards or buffing weaker cards in closed beta.
Their aim is to leave beta at some stage, and to do that the game has to be relatively sensible. Things like gorestrasza are not sensible, and buffing cards just because they don't see much play is also not how you reach a releasable state quickly.
She was being played in every single deck because she was so overpowered
No she was played in every deck because she's versatile and an easy two-for-one. It's not like Sylv is the only card that is a two-for-one. She's like a truesilver which can occasionally do better than that, but at 6 mana vs 4 that's just not good enough for a legendary.
Actually she was often a 3 for 1. Trades with one, kills a second one (the minion that you steal), and summons a new minion for you (the minion you stole). I do think the nerf was warranted.
If she is often a 3 for 1, you're doing it wrong. For her to 3 for 1 she has to be played onto a board where either there are 2 minions and neither of them has less than 5 damage, or more than 2 minions and you can't silence or remove her somehow and you she isn't next to any other minions you can sac your minions into without losing value. Sure, those things can happen, but to say they often happen is ridiculous. And when those things do happen, it's probably late game so you should either be able to deal with it easier or just ignore sylv and kill the opponent.
You are right, everyone was using her, because her image is fapparific!
I guess, that's why she will remain in everyone's deck after the patch too, right?! lol
She very often gets 3:1 if the opponent doesn't have a counter!
Tirion is not always better. Compare him to, say, Iron bark protector. While he will generally be much better than an ironbark, he gets punished HARD by a silence. Turning Tirion into a 6-6 for 8 is a massive tempo swing. Onyxia gets punished by a minor AOE because she locks you ENTIRE turn to play and isn't hard to remove, Cairne gets punished hard by silence as well, jaraxxus is nearly impossible to use when you are behind and Cenarius/Ysera locks your entire turn for a questionable value minion. I think it's very clear that Blizzard tried to make all the legendaries balanced, while giving them the potential to be huge.
Rag, Sylvanas, Tinkmaster and Black Knight are the only legendaries that stand out so much. These ones are the "problem" legendaries that make the game unfun for light spenders. All of the other legendaries are fairly balanced or even underpowered (because they all can be punished).
Also, you really ought to look at all the cards. There is no card in the entire game that is not situationally better than any other card.
As for Sylvanas vs Truesilver: If you can't see that Weapons and minions aren't comparable, I'm not even going to bother explaining it any further lol.
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Any of those cards can be removed by standard stuff like Hex, Poly, and Assassinate, too. Sylvanus really isn't that devastating. You just have to know how to work around her. The Black Knight is completely situational. Otherwise, he's a severely overcosted Yeti. Tinkmaster is just like having an extra Poly, except half the time he could make the situation almost as bad (Tink the Argent Commander? Oh, now he's a 5/5.) And, yes, Tirion is almost always better provided your opponent doesn't have an answer. But that's the point. If they have an answer, no legendary is OP. It's often just a question of proper play. Any number of people have beaten decks stuffed with legendaries with decks made up of nothing but commons and average rares. It's not that hard.
*facepalm* You don't say? Really? I never considered that you COULD beat any of those cards! >.>
Yes, of course you CAN beat any of those cards, but does it make it balanced? No. There is no card in the entire game that lacks a counter. If there were, this game would be complete garbage. Ovepowered=|unbeatable. The problem is what happens if you DON'T have a silence against Sylvanas. (even if you do have silence, it's not like it neutralizes her. she's still a 5-5 for 5.)
And what kind of idiot uses tinkmaster on an argent commander? As for black knight, it isn't that it's OP, it's that it's unfair. If you play black knight when your opponent has a huge taunt on the board, the value and tempo swing you get because of it often just wins you the game. Even though you get slightly punished when you are facing an aggro opponent, it doesn't make up for it. If you are running a late game deck, and your opponent has black knight, there is no counterplay. You are just going to lose a big taunt minion for the whopping price of 2 mana. Tinkmaster is another card just like it, while it isn't great against aggro decks, it punishes late game decks. Both of those cards regularly lose me the entire game because I like slow decks. And there's nothing I can do about it other than playing aggro, which is boring as hell.
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I play nothing but slow/control decks and I've been in the beta since July. I've never lost to a Sylvanus or a Black Knight. It's. Not. That. Difficult. And no amount of caterwauling here is going to change that. Other people can deal with those cards. You can, too.
Oh, then tell me, how am I supposed to counter black knight? Just don't run big taunts? [sarcasm]Seems reasonable.[/sarcasm]
Also, though I appreciate your vocabulary (even despite you using the word incorrectly), can you all stop with the insults? It's impossible to make any sort of criticism for ANYTHING without being called a whiner here.
Not to mention, the "caterwauling" by the community DID lead to a nerf on Sylvanas, so I beg to differ.
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Yeah, Hex, Poly and Assassinate are common cards in every deck - every Priest and Paladin runs those, am I right? Besides, Assassinate still triggers the deathrattle.
Actually she was often a 3 for 1. Trades with one, kills a second one (the minion that you steal), and summons a new minion for you (the minion you stole). I do think the nerf was warranted.
I think the defender of argus change doesn't actually change much. I was also expecting a minor nerf to harvest golem. Possibly Deathrattle: Summon a 1/1. Down from a 2/1.
Novice engineer nerf was also warranted. Unlike the the loot hoarder, her card draw is instant, and can't be silenced. And card draw is very important to the game. For example, sometimes the only card that can save you is a Swipe or something like this. If you have 2 swipes in your deck the only way to improve your odds of drawing that card is by using a novice, or some other type of card draw. Loot hoarder won't help you because you have to wait a turn, and you can't just replace the novice in your deck for another swipe because you already have 2. That is why the card will continue to be good.
Pyroblast was warranted. Minions and spells can't be compared. Charge minions are noticeably weaker for being able to attack the same turn they are played. Other minions you have a turn to deal with, either by trading, or using removal. Spells have no post-counter. Your only chance is to predict them. Example, Boulderfist ogre is played. Now it is your turn. You can use now polymorph it. Now compare to Pyroblast. You could use a Holy Light, but wait the damage killed you so you can't. Your only chance is to predict it, and play Holy Light a turn sooner, which could also be the worse play in the case that they don't have pyroblast. You never know because you have to predict the play.
Patch didn't do much to fix mages. They will still be hyper-aggressive in 90% of the decks.
Hyper aggressive mages will now die before they can Pyroblast.
Poetic.
Yeah, no. Hyper aggro mages don't really rely on pyro. There was a common aggro mage that could either not run pyro, or only one pyro (in case they ran out of steam.) The pyro nerf is mostly a nail in the coffin of the frozen giants mage, not aggro mage.
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Caterwaul: 1. To cry as cats in heat; to make a harsh, offensive noise.
2. To have a noisy argument, as between cats.
You're basically doing nothing here but bitching about cards you don't like and presumably don't own. Multiple people have informed you that they're really not all that and, no, despite your assertions, I seriously doubt that Blizzard "nerfed" (by one whole mana) Sylvanus because of your or others' bitching. They did it because the card is played in an overwhelming number of decks in the same way that Novice Engineer is (I don't recall hearing about the ominous threat of Novice Engineer overtaking the game.) Everyone played it because it's an efficient card and a very value-driven card. People were bitching about Argus Defender being OP since October and nothing was done to that card... until it started showing up in every deck type and class out there. That's the key. Not your willingness to spam fora.
Sylvanus is a really good card. That doesn't mean it's an overpowered card or something you should begin wailing about as soon as your opponent plays it. I play it and people have gotten around it. My opponents play it and I do the same. Or sometimes we don't and we lose, but not because we were hit six times by a 5/5 that we were afraid to play a creature against for fear of losing it (like Mind Control) or not because our opponent blasted us for a third of our life total and there was nothing we could do to prevent it (like Pyroblast.)
And if your opponent plays a Knight and destroys your Ancient of War, do what I do: Starfire or Starfall it. You'll even get card advantage off the first. Or play Bite and hero power and take it out for no damage to yourself. Or Wrath and hit it with your other Taunter (You do have more than one creature in play, right?) And next turn play the other Ancient in your deck. Or any of a hundred other ways to deal with it across 8 other classes. These things happen. Taunters are pretty much there to be destroyed in the first place. It's part of the game.
A basic, non-pyro aggro mage sounds pretty easy to counter if you ask me. Perhaps you're just terrible if you find any mage deck that much of a challenge?
Poetic.
Thanks for posting the definition to show that you did indeed misuse the word. Please explain how any of what I said fits into either of those definitions.
What I'm getting from the rest of your post is that you equate all criticism to "bitching." If I recall correctly, this game is in a beta where the encourage you to give feedback. This is also a FORUM, where people DISCUSS things. If you don't want to see people discussing things, you made a very poor choice of website. People like you are really getting on my nerves, I'm sick and tired of you and others like you shrugging off every critique of the game as "whining."
As for you black knight examples, you do realize that you either lose that trade by either 7 mana and a card, or 6 mana and two cards, right? Taunts are not there to be destroyed they are there to soak up damage instead of key targets for your opponent (whether that be a minion or your face).
For the third time, this isn't a matter of "Can you beat it" it's a matter of "Is it too strong." Cards like Sylvanas (pre-nerf) and black knight are simply too hard to deal with, and can win games by themselves. Playing against a deck with cards like this when you don't have them puts you at a significant disadvantage. Please stop dealing in absolutes and consider the difference between "unbeatable" and "unbalanced" or "unfair."
I never said I found it a big challenge to deal with, I just said that aggro mage doesn't rely on it
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ALL cards are comparable. The fact that you can't compare them is your problem.
If she is often a 3 for 1, you're doing it wrong. For her to 3 for 1 she has to be played onto a board where either there are 2 minions and neither of them has less than 5 damage, or more than 2 minions and you can't silence or remove her somehow and you she isn't next to any other minions you can sac your minions into without losing value. Sure, those things can happen, but to say they often happen is ridiculous. And when those things do happen, it's probably late game so you should either be able to deal with it easier or just ignore sylv and kill the opponent.
Not quite sure why Blizzard is getting cold feet with adding new cards or buffing weaker cards in closed beta.
This whole "its too risky to buff cards at this stage of production" is a total cop out. No SHIT its risky, but that doesn't mean it isn't called-for.
If the production team is having so much trouble getting out of their comfort zones to make quality of life changes now, I don't see this game getting very far past open beta when patches will have even more impact on a larger player base.
tl;dr Back yourself into a cycle of stale nerfs and "reworks", suffer dwindling approval.
Thanks FOO(The Banner God)!
Their aim is to leave beta at some stage, and to do that the game has to be relatively sensible. Things like gorestrasza are not sensible, and buffing cards just because they don't see much play is also not how you reach a releasable state quickly.
You are right, everyone was using her, because her image is fapparific!
I guess, that's why she will remain in everyone's deck after the patch too, right?! lol
She very often gets 3:1 if the opponent doesn't have a counter!