When I fight Combo (Aka Patron) Warrior, I feel like I'm fighting a Heroic Adventure boss (such as KT/Chromaggus). The reason it feels this way to me is because you're hoping that they don't draw perfectly to shut down your early aggression and outright kill you by turn 7-9 (especially if they had Thaurissan at 6). And to really stand a good chance against them you need to have drawn quite well yourself, and with much less card draw comparatively. And even sometimes when you think you've drawn well it's not enough.
Now do I think the deck as a whole needs to be nerfed? Ehh. Not really. It's an annoying deck to fight no doubt, and with far less counters than I think people try to claim it does. Most notable of those counters being Handlock, AoE such as: Mages with Flamestrike and Freeze effects, big taunts if they lack the Execute to remove them, and Priests with Auchenai+Circle/Lightbomb or a Pally with Equality+Consecrate/Pyro in hand. Most other AoE proves to be ineffective or even a liability vs the infinite conga line of Patron's (Swipe, Lightning Storm, Consecrate, Explosive Trap, lower end Blade Flurries etc..)
Other counters often mentioned:
Kill them before turn 8 aka rush them down. Very difficult to do vs a Warrior who's constantly gaining armor and removing your minions with weapons/spells
Don't play 2 attack or less minions. So it's acceptable for in this match-up for Paladin's Hero ability to become a complete benefit to the Warrior? Same with Shaman's on a 25% chance, even though they need the spell power totem to reliably lightning storm Patron's.
Don't play a lot of minions for Frothing Berserker to feed off of. A reasonable counter, just don't be greedy just like you wouldn't play your entire hand into a Mage with 10 cards in hand expecting Flamestrike.
Tech in Oozes/Harrison. While these can throw a wrench into the Patron Warrior's plans by prematurely destroying a Death's Bite they're still only a couple cards that you have to draw by turn 7-9.
I'm sure there's some more...But those are the big ones. The most baffling part of it is the wide accepted hatred for Face Hunters and complaints about it being imbalanced when countering Face Hunter is so much easier. Even a single Antique Healbot, or strong taunt can stop them in their tracks and turn the game around, or the much easier: Deathlord. Deathlord may be a liability but if I could counter Patron Warrior as easily I would do it in a heartbeat.
Both Facehunter and Patron Warrior are dirt cheap to make. One is far easier to counter and yet so much more acceptable to openly bash and call "cancer" and blame all your troubles on.
If they ever went down the route of attempting to weaken the deck nerfing Grim Patron itself would only punish any other class from ever using it. Nerfing Frothing Berserker is extremely unfair not only because it has reasonable counter-play but because it would also severely punish it in any other deck where otherwise it's not a fantastic card but a good one. And then there's nerfing Warsong Commander, which reverting it to the way it was bugged sounds like a relatively good idea. It would maintain the power of the Frothing Berserkerplay and tone down Patron's appropriately for Warrior so they don't have so many strong win condition options in this particular deck. It honestly feels like fighting OTK Shaman if you could choose for Ancestor's Call to bring out Malygos at will, only you still need to draw Malygos, and all required spells with Shaman's awful card draw.
This is just my venting about the deck and sharing my opinion, not trying to start a witchhunt here. I rather like the fact that Warrior got a new deck other than CW, I just think it's a bit over the top and too difficult to manage when they get just reasonably lucky.
It feels so cheap, when you're clearly on top for most of the game, and you know what's coming, but there's nothing you can do about it. Once the warsong, patron and frothing hit the board, you're pretty much doomed. I see Warriors just sit back, play very little, just bide time until turn 8 after getting Thaurissan out on 6 ... and they pretty much can do whatever they like once they get those cards out.
The reason it's not as bad as Face Hunter is because there ARE actually things you can do. When playing against a Patron Warrior deck, you get at least 8 turns to prepare for what's coming. Maybe you'll be able to stop it, maybe you won't, but at least you get to play your deck.
I have zero issues with patron warrior as a deck archetype. Its no better or worse than combo druid. Sure Grim Patron is annoying and Warsong Commander plus Frothing Berserker can result in some epic charging deaths. But the deck is very reliant on draw and is soft early game. It has a big soft spot between turns 4 and 6 where you can really apply pressure and lock them out of the combo plays they want to make.
As for the comparison to old Miracle Rogue decks I feel that is unwarranted that deck was completely non-interactive with opponent and came down to "did they draw auctioneer in top 15 cards" always. This deck while the combo's are more numerable the draw engine isn't there and because of that is less reliable.
The reason it's not as bad as Face Hunter is because there ARE actually things you can do. When playing against a Patron Warrior deck, you get at least 8 turns to prepare for what's coming. Maybe you'll be able to stop it, maybe you won't, but at least you get to play your deck.
If I could upvote this reply twice I would. Patron warrior is a legitimate strategy that, while effective, can most certainly be stopped. Flamestrike, Equality and Consecration, and Hellfire all exist as optimal board-clears for the inevitable "everybody, get in here!" rush. Those options are only the board-clear cards available, never mind the numerous huge taunts and single-target control cards most classes have available to them.
Is it a tough deck to stop? Yes. Is it impossible to stop? Absolutely not.
The reason it's not as bad as Face Hunter is because there ARE actually things you can do. When playing against a Patron Warrior deck, you get at least 8 turns to prepare for what's coming. Maybe you'll be able to stop it, maybe you won't, but at least you get to play your deck.
If I could upvote this reply twice I would. Patron warrior is a legitimate strategy that, while effective, can most certainly be stopped. Flamestrike, Equality and Consecration, and Hellfire all exist as optimal board-clears for the inevitable "everybody, get in here!" rush. Those options are only the board-clear cards available, never mind the numerous huge taunts and single-target control cards most classes have available to them.
Is it a tough deck to stop? Yes. Is it impossible to stop? Absolutely not.
Flamestrike isn't very scary -- with a prepped Death's bite and a single inner rage I can have 4 patrons on board on 5. Hellfire's very efficient at clearing Patrons, but (unless you're forced to or know your opponent's used all of his clears) you shouldn't be spamming patrons vs. Handlock in the early game. Ideally, you want to wait until you can Battle Rage on the same turn to draw into frothing/grommash lethal. Equality+consecration is good, but this is a two-card combo (far less reliable to draw into) and Patron/Berserker antics are generally so effective vs. paladin that it doesn't remotely swing the matchup in their favor.
Grim patron is just as cheap as miracle. You realize that no aoe will help you when they start with warsong + inner rage + inner rage + whirlwind + deathbite charge right?
Meanwhile weapons and execute are your cheap removal just like backstab, deadly poison and evis back then with miracoli.
That's a 11 or 13-mana (berserker or frothing?) combo that requires 6 cards. If you give a combo deck enough freedom to play something like that and draw into it consistently, then yeah, bad things are going to happen for you.
Grim patron is just as cheap as miracle. You realize that no aoe will help you when they start with warsong + inner rage + inner rage + whirlwind + deathbite charge right?
Meanwhile weapons and execute are your cheap removal just like backstab, deadly poison and evis back then with miracoli.
Sure, but you're describing the perfect turn. Many decks can kill you with a perfect turn. On a practical, game by game basis, the vast majority of matchups will end up on a less ideal set of plays. The Combo you describe is one 9 turns in the making, what have you been doing in those 9 turns? If he has been holding all of those perfect cards in his hand, how has he been holding your offense off this long?
Again, it's a very powerful deck, likely strongest in the environment right now. Maybe a nerf to Warsong Commander is in order (charge is a notoriously dangerous mechanic, as any review of previously nerfed cards will show). But a grim Patron Deck, unlike several of the other degenerate deck types we've seen, allows for GAMEPLAY counters as opposed to deck building counters.
As far as broken decks go, this is the one I still have the most fun playing against :)
Why? What makes Frothing burst and Inner Rage on a Patron "ridiculous" but not any other of the many combos in the game?
Because none other combo lets you clear the board AND fill the board with minions at the same time?
Well that's really the thing, whether you have a board with minions or an empty board you will have the Patron army unleashed upon you. And your board will be cleared and/or you till take a lot of damage. There's not really much counter play to the Patron's. AoE isn't even a good way to deal with it. Saying counter patrons with AoE is not even effective because the damage is done, once it has happened you're almost always in a position of danger.
And as far as the Miracle Rogue comments go, I didn't play during that time, I cannot comment on it. There appears to be no dispute that Patron Warrior is so much like miracle Rogue and I never once seen anyone defend old Miracle Rogue. The most similar thing to Patron Warrior in my opinion these days is Oil Rogue and to an extent Freeze Mage. If you really know how to deal with Freeze Mage and Oil Rogue they're not as difficult to deal with and have easier options for counter play if you have them. Freeze Mage can be shut down by a single Kezan Mystic or silencing Mad Scientists, or not drawing those crucial spells. Oil Rogue can be shutdown by applying pressure (which is much easier than Warriors due to no armor) and forcing them to use their essentially 4 win conditions in Blade Flurry/Preps.
When Patron's first surfaced you'd think forcing them to waste a whirlwind would have been a massive blow, but it's really not. The one card they absolutely cannot afford to waste is their Commander's which they really never have to.
Something I should have mentioned initially with Face Hunter is the equal distaste for Druid combo. Personally I have never had an issue with it, other than the fact that I think it hinders the growth of the Druid class. But it's predictable, and outside of turn 10 Wild Growth and Ancient of Lore you don't have to worry about them undoubtedly drawing into them in ridiculous 5+ card draw turns for low amounts of mana. I go many games without ever seeing the full combo on Druids, and if you keep their board down you can easily account for the 14 damage burst. Druid's cannot remove large taunts as easily as Warriors either, especially not on the same turn as playing the combo.
As stated though, AoE is really not a reasonable solution. By the time you must deal with Patron's it is too late in a lot of cases. In one turn/combo they cleared your board (if you had one), gained a VERY hard to deal with board that has one type of answer, and dealt quite a bit of damage to you that will continue to do damage to you every turn after you do not deal with them.
The OTK Shaman example I gave is yet again another good example, could you say killing Malygos is the counter? (Not that OTK Shaman is even remotely good enough to need to be countered) No, generally you're dead the turn Malygos comes out and they cast a bunch of spells, the only real good counter to it is killing them early enough or a Warrior building up too much armor to actually OTK you.
It's important to note as well how difficult it still if for a grim patron deck to truly get the OTK.
Everyone has been talking about those perfect hand kills, but in actual game play you're far more likely to get a 3 or 4 patron face attack at most from an empty board. Say, a Warsong/Patron/Death's Bite/Whirlwind or something. Devastating sure, but only 4 cards, 9 mana, so not unreasonable. That's only 16 damage.
Considering how little forward pressure Patron decks can generally put on in the early game, that's unlikely to be lethal. You should have a chance to counter punch, and with so many of their resources vulnerable on the board. your board clears can salvage a win if you've been properly stockpiling them.
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When I fight Combo (Aka Patron) Warrior, I feel like I'm fighting a Heroic Adventure boss (such as KT/Chromaggus). The reason it feels this way to me is because you're hoping that they don't draw perfectly to shut down your early aggression and outright kill you by turn 7-9 (especially if they had Thaurissan at 6). And to really stand a good chance against them you need to have drawn quite well yourself, and with much less card draw comparatively. And even sometimes when you think you've drawn well it's not enough.
Now do I think the deck as a whole needs to be nerfed? Ehh. Not really. It's an annoying deck to fight no doubt, and with far less counters than I think people try to claim it does. Most notable of those counters being Handlock, AoE such as: Mages with Flamestrike and Freeze effects, big taunts if they lack the Execute to remove them, and Priests with Auchenai+Circle/Lightbomb or a Pally with Equality+Consecrate/Pyro in hand. Most other AoE proves to be ineffective or even a liability vs the infinite conga line of Patron's (Swipe, Lightning Storm, Consecrate, Explosive Trap, lower end Blade Flurries etc..)
Other counters often mentioned:
I'm sure there's some more...But those are the big ones. The most baffling part of it is the wide accepted hatred for Face Hunters and complaints about it being imbalanced when countering Face Hunter is so much easier. Even a single Antique Healbot, or strong taunt can stop them in their tracks and turn the game around, or the much easier: Deathlord. Deathlord may be a liability but if I could counter Patron Warrior as easily I would do it in a heartbeat.
Both Facehunter and Patron Warrior are dirt cheap to make. One is far easier to counter and yet so much more acceptable to openly bash and call "cancer" and blame all your troubles on.
If they ever went down the route of attempting to weaken the deck nerfing Grim Patron itself would only punish any other class from ever using it. Nerfing Frothing Berserker is extremely unfair not only because it has reasonable counter-play but because it would also severely punish it in any other deck where otherwise it's not a fantastic card but a good one. And then there's nerfing Warsong Commander, which reverting it to the way it was bugged sounds like a relatively good idea. It would maintain the power of the Frothing Berserkerplay and tone down Patron's appropriately for Warrior so they don't have so many strong win condition options in this particular deck. It honestly feels like fighting OTK Shaman if you could choose for Ancestor's Call to bring out Malygos at will, only you still need to draw Malygos, and all required spells with Shaman's awful card draw.
This is just my venting about the deck and sharing my opinion, not trying to start a witchhunt here. I rather like the fact that Warrior got a new deck other than CW, I just think it's a bit over the top and too difficult to manage when they get just reasonably lucky.
At least it isn't Miracle Rogue.
It's worse than miracle rogue IMO.
It feels so cheap, when you're clearly on top for most of the game, and you know what's coming, but there's nothing you can do about it. Once the warsong, patron and frothing hit the board, you're pretty much doomed. I see Warriors just sit back, play very little, just bide time until turn 8 after getting Thaurissan out on 6 ... and they pretty much can do whatever they like once they get those cards out.
The reason it's not as bad as Face Hunter is because there ARE actually things you can do. When playing against a Patron Warrior deck, you get at least 8 turns to prepare for what's coming. Maybe you'll be able to stop it, maybe you won't, but at least you get to play your deck.
I have zero issues with patron warrior as a deck archetype. Its no better or worse than combo druid. Sure Grim Patron is annoying and Warsong Commander plus Frothing Berserker can result in some epic charging deaths. But the deck is very reliant on draw and is soft early game. It has a big soft spot between turns 4 and 6 where you can really apply pressure and lock them out of the combo plays they want to make.
As for the comparison to old Miracle Rogue decks I feel that is unwarranted that deck was completely non-interactive with opponent and came down to "did they draw auctioneer in top 15 cards" always. This deck while the combo's are more numerable the draw engine isn't there and because of that is less reliable.
If I could upvote this reply twice I would. Patron warrior is a legitimate strategy that, while effective, can most certainly be stopped. Flamestrike, Equality and Consecration, and Hellfire all exist as optimal board-clears for the inevitable "everybody, get in here!" rush. Those options are only the board-clear cards available, never mind the numerous huge taunts and single-target control cards most classes have available to them.
Is it a tough deck to stop? Yes. Is it impossible to stop? Absolutely not.
The sad thing is that grim patron isn't even their sole win condition, I think I've lost more to explosive frothing berserker plays.
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Can't do enough dmg with aggro pally to win against this matchup. I pretty much have to hope for them to screw up or draw poor.
Frothing is the real problem of this combo, grim patron is just fine.
Flamestrike isn't very scary -- with a prepped Death's bite and a single inner rage I can have 4 patrons on board on 5. Hellfire's very efficient at clearing Patrons, but (unless you're forced to or know your opponent's used all of his clears) you shouldn't be spamming patrons vs. Handlock in the early game. Ideally, you want to wait until you can Battle Rage on the same turn to draw into frothing/grommash lethal. Equality+consecration is good, but this is a two-card combo (far less reliable to draw into) and Patron/Berserker antics are generally so effective vs. paladin that it doesn't remotely swing the matchup in their favor.
That's a 11 or 13-mana (berserker or frothing?) combo that requires 6 cards. If you give a combo deck enough freedom to play something like that and draw into it consistently, then yeah, bad things are going to happen for you.
Sure, but you're describing the perfect turn. Many decks can kill you with a perfect turn. On a practical, game by game basis, the vast majority of matchups will end up on a less ideal set of plays. The Combo you describe is one 9 turns in the making, what have you been doing in those 9 turns? If he has been holding all of those perfect cards in his hand, how has he been holding your offense off this long?
Again, it's a very powerful deck, likely strongest in the environment right now. Maybe a nerf to Warsong Commander is in order (charge is a notoriously dangerous mechanic, as any review of previously nerfed cards will show). But a grim Patron Deck, unlike several of the other degenerate deck types we've seen, allows for GAMEPLAY counters as opposed to deck building counters.
As far as broken decks go, this is the one I still have the most fun playing against :)
Warsong Commander's card text should be: "Your minions with 3 or less attack have Charge."
This change would prevent the ridiculous burst of Frothing Berserker and using Inner Rage on a Grim Patron would make it loose charge.
Why? What makes Frothing burst and Inner Rage on a Patron "ridiculous" but not any other of the many combos in the game?
Because none other combo lets you clear the board AND fill the board with minions at the same time?
Well that's really the thing, whether you have a board with minions or an empty board you will have the Patron army unleashed upon you. And your board will be cleared and/or you till take a lot of damage. There's not really much counter play to the Patron's. AoE isn't even a good way to deal with it. Saying counter patrons with AoE is not even effective because the damage is done, once it has happened you're almost always in a position of danger.
And as far as the Miracle Rogue comments go, I didn't play during that time, I cannot comment on it. There appears to be no dispute that Patron Warrior is so much like miracle Rogue and I never once seen anyone defend old Miracle Rogue. The most similar thing to Patron Warrior in my opinion these days is Oil Rogue and to an extent Freeze Mage. If you really know how to deal with Freeze Mage and Oil Rogue they're not as difficult to deal with and have easier options for counter play if you have them. Freeze Mage can be shut down by a single Kezan Mystic or silencing Mad Scientists, or not drawing those crucial spells. Oil Rogue can be shutdown by applying pressure (which is much easier than Warriors due to no armor) and forcing them to use their essentially 4 win conditions in Blade Flurry/Preps.
When Patron's first surfaced you'd think forcing them to waste a whirlwind would have been a massive blow, but it's really not. The one card they absolutely cannot afford to waste is their Commander's which they really never have to.
Something I should have mentioned initially with Face Hunter is the equal distaste for Druid combo. Personally I have never had an issue with it, other than the fact that I think it hinders the growth of the Druid class. But it's predictable, and outside of turn 10 Wild Growth and Ancient of Lore you don't have to worry about them undoubtedly drawing into them in ridiculous 5+ card draw turns for low amounts of mana. I go many games without ever seeing the full combo on Druids, and if you keep their board down you can easily account for the 14 damage burst. Druid's cannot remove large taunts as easily as Warriors either, especially not on the same turn as playing the combo.
As stated though, AoE is really not a reasonable solution. By the time you must deal with Patron's it is too late in a lot of cases. In one turn/combo they cleared your board (if you had one), gained a VERY hard to deal with board that has one type of answer, and dealt quite a bit of damage to you that will continue to do damage to you every turn after you do not deal with them.
The OTK Shaman example I gave is yet again another good example, could you say killing Malygos is the counter? (Not that OTK Shaman is even remotely good enough to need to be countered) No, generally you're dead the turn Malygos comes out and they cast a bunch of spells, the only real good counter to it is killing them early enough or a Warrior building up too much armor to actually OTK you.
It's important to note as well how difficult it still if for a grim patron deck to truly get the OTK.
Everyone has been talking about those perfect hand kills, but in actual game play you're far more likely to get a 3 or 4 patron face attack at most from an empty board. Say, a Warsong/Patron/Death's Bite/Whirlwind or something. Devastating sure, but only 4 cards, 9 mana, so not unreasonable. That's only 16 damage.
Considering how little forward pressure Patron decks can generally put on in the early game, that's unlikely to be lethal. You should have a chance to counter punch, and with so many of their resources vulnerable on the board. your board clears can salvage a win if you've been properly stockpiling them.